The Other Premillennialism

[Biblewriter]

Most people are quite familiar with dispensational Premillennialism. They may even consider it standard Christianity even though the name may be obscure to them. I'm not interested in this form of Premillennialism. I already know too much about it.

What I'm interested in learning more about is other forms of Premillennialism such as Historic Premillennialism and Adventist Premillennialism.

"Historic Premillennism" is a fiction being circulated by opponents of Dispensationalism. In my recently published book titled "Ancient Dispensational Truth," by James C. Morris, I conclusively demonstrated that the main elements of modern dispensationalism were clearly taught in the very oldest surviving Christian documents that even touch on the subjects involved.

If you were to bother to read, for instance, the last twelve chapters of the very famous work by Irenaeus, titled "Against Heresies," you would see that most of what it says sounds like it might have been written last week at any of the famous dispensational seminaries in the United States. But this is the very oldest surviving Christian commentary on Bible prophecy of any significant length. Scholars think this was written between the years 186 and 188. We know abut older Christian commentaries on Bible prophecy. But all of those are either only very short or have been lost.

You would also get the same impression, thatis, that this might have been written last week ant any of the famous dispensatinal seminaries in the United States, if you were to read the very oldest surviving Christian commentary on scripture (as opposed to a Christian commentary on a scriptural subject.) This is a Commentary on Daniel, written by Hippolytus. And aomng other things, it very explicitly teaches, in several places, that the seventieth week of Daniel's prophecy of the seventy weeks, remains to be fulfilled in the future. (This was also taught in the document by Irenaeus, but not so explicitly and clearly as in this one.) Scholars think this was written between the years 202 and 211.

 

[BABerean2]

"Historic Premillennism" is a fiction being circulated by opponents of Dispensationalism. In my recently published book titled "Ancient Dispensational Truth," by James C. Morris, I conclusively demonstrated that the main elements of modern dispensationalism were clearly taught in the very oldest surviving Christian documents that even touch on the subjects involved.

None of the earlier sources claimed modern Jews would come to salvation outside of the Church.
This is one of the greatest errors of modern Dispensational Theology.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.


.

 

[jgr]

"Historic Premillennism" is a fiction being circulated by opponents of Dispensationalism. In my recently published book titled "Ancient Dispensational Truth," by James C. Morris, I conclusively demonstrated that the main elements of modern dispensationalism were clearly taught in the very oldest surviving Christian documents that even touch on the subjects involved.

If you were to bother to read, for instance, the last twelve chapters of the very famous work by Irenaeus, titled "Against Heresies," you would see that most of what it says sounds like it might have been written last week at any of the famous dispensational seminaries in the United States. But this is the very oldest surviving Christian commentary on Bible prophecy of any significant length. Scholars think this was written between the years 186 and 188. We know abut older Christian commentaries on Bible prophecy. But all of those are either only very short or have been lost.

You would also get the same impression, thatis, that this might have been written last week ant any of the famous dispensatinal seminaries in the United States, if you were to read the very oldest surviving Christian commentary on scripture (as opposed to a Christian commentary on a scriptural subject.) This is a Commentary on Daniel, written by Hippolytus. And aomng other things, it very explicitly teaches, in several places, that the seventieth week of Daniel's prophecy of the seventy weeks, remains to be fulfilled in the future. (This was also taught in the document by Irenaeus, but not so explicitly and clearly as in this one.) Scholars think this was written between the years 202 and 211.

Hippolytus: (Daniel 9:24 fulfillment) 16. That transgressions, therefore, are blotted out, and that reconciliation is made for sins, is shown by this. But who are they who have reconciliation made for their sins, but they who believe on His name, and propitiate His countenance by good works? And that after the return of the people from Babylon there was a space of 434 years [bible.ca note: the actual number is 538 years till Christ's birth], until the time of the birth of Christ, may be easily understood. For, since the first covenant was given to the children of Israel after a period of 434 years, it follows that the second covenant also should be defined by the same space of time, in order that it might be expected by the people and easily recognised by the faithful. 17. And for this reason Gabriel says: "And to anoint the Most Holy." And the Most Holy is none else but the Son of God alone, who, when He came and manifested Himself, said to them, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because He has anointed me;" and so forth. Whosoever, therefore, believed on the heavenly Priest, were cleansed by that same Priest, and their sins were blotted out. And whosoever believe it not on Him, despising Him as a man, had their sins sealed, as those which could not be taken away; whence the angel, foreseeing that not all should believe on Him, said, "To finish sins, and to seal up sins." For as many as continued to disbelieve Him, even to the end, had their sins not finished, but sealed to be kept for judgment. But as many as will believe on Him as One able to remit sins, have their sins blotted out. Wherefore he says: "And to seal up vision and prophet."18. For when He came who is the fulfilling of the law and of the prophets (for the law and the prophets were till John), it was necessary that the things spoken by them should be confirmed (sealed), in order that at the coming of the Lord all things loosed should be brought to light, and that things bound of old should now be loosed by Him...

Hippolytus (and probably Irenaeus, as they were a pupil/teacher pair) believed in the fulfillment of the Daniel 9:24 portion of Daniel's 70 weeks by Christ at Calvary.

Clement of Alexandria: (On Daniel 9:24-27 ; The 'Seventy Weeks' of Daniel) Cyrus had, by proclamation, previously enjoined the restoration of the Hebrews. And his promise being accomplished in the time of Darius, the feast of the dedication was held, as also the feast of tabernacles. There were in all, taking in the duration of the captivity down to the restoration of the people, from the birth of Moses, one thousand one hundred and fifty-five years, six months, and ten days; and from the reign of David, according to some, four hundred and fifty-two; more correctly, five hundred and seventy-two years, six months, and ten days. From the captivity at Babylon, which took place in the time of Jeremiah the prophet, was fulfilled what was spoken by Daniel the prophet as follows: "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people, and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to seal sins, and to wipe out and make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal the vision and the prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. Know therefore, and understand, that from the going forth of the word commanding an answer to be given, and Jerusalem to be built, to Christ the Prince, are seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; and the street shall be again built, and the wall; and the times shall be expended. And after the sixty-two weeks the anointing shall be overthrown, and judgment shall not be in him; and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary along with the coming Prince. And they shall be destroyed in a flood, and to the end of the war shall be cut off by: desolations. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week; and in the middle of the week the sacrifice and oblation shall be taken away; and in the holy place shall be the abomination of desolations, and until the consummation of time shall the consummation be assigned for desolation. And in the midst of the week shall he make the incense of sacrifice cease, and of the wing of destruction, even till the consummation, like the destruction of the oblation." That the temple accordingly was built in seven weeks, is evident; for it is written in Esdras. And thus Christ became King of the Jews, reigning in Jerusalem in the fulfilment of the seven weeks. And in the sixty and two weeks the whole of Judaea was quiet, and without wars. And Christ our Lord, "the Holy of Holies," having come and fulfilled the vision and the prophecy, was anointed in His flesh by the Holy Spirit of His Father. In those "sixty and two weeks," as the prophet said, and "in the one week," was He Lord. The half of the week Nero held sway, and in the holy city Jerusalem placed the abomination; and in the half of the week he was taken away, and Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius. And Vespasian rose to the supreme power, and destroyed Jerusalem, and desolated the holy place. And that such are the facts of the case, is clear to him that is able to understand, as the prophet said.

Tertullian: "Vespasian, in the first year of his empire, subdues the Jews in war; and there are made lii years, vi months. For he reigned xi years. And thus, in the day of their storming, the Jews fulfilled the lxx hebdomads predicted in Daniel ." (An Answer to the Jews 8.) (On the Seventy Weeks of Daniel)

Clement and Tertullian believed in the complete fulfillment of Daniel's 70 weeks.

So did virtually every other historical defender of the true faith for eighteen centuries.

Seventieth week decapitation is overwhelmingly an invention of dispensational modernism.

Then there's that pretrib rapture modernist invention as well.

 

[DavidPT]

Hippolytus: (Daniel 9:24 fulfillment) 16. That transgressions, therefore, are blotted out, and that reconciliation is made for sins, is shown by this. But who are they who have reconciliation made for their sins, but they who believe on His name, and propitiate His countenance by good works? And that after the return of the people from Babylon there was a space of 434 years [bible.ca note: the actual number is 538 years till Christ's birth], until the time of the birth of Christ, may be easily understood. For, since the first covenant was given to the children of Israel after a period of 434 years, it follows that the second covenant also should be defined by the same space of time, in order that it might be expected by the people and easily recognised by the faithful. 17. And for this reason Gabriel says: "And to anoint the Most Holy." And the Most Holy is none else but the Son of God alone, who, when He came and manifested Himself, said to them, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because He has anointed me;" and so forth. Whosoever, therefore, believed on the heavenly Priest, were cleansed by that same Priest, and their sins were blotted out. And whosoever believe it not on Him, despising Him as a man, had their sins sealed, as those which could not be taken away; whence the angel, foreseeing that not all should believe on Him, said, "To finish sins, and to seal up sins." For as many as continued to disbelieve Him, even to the end, had their sins not finished, but sealed to be kept for judgment. But as many as will believe on Him as One able to remit sins, have their sins blotted out. Wherefore he says: "And to seal up vision and prophet."18. For when He came who is the fulfilling of the law and of the prophets (for the law and the prophets were till John), it was necessary that the things spoken by them should be confirmed (sealed), in order that at the coming of the Lord all things loosed should be brought to light, and that things bound of old should now be loosed by Him...

Hippolytus (and probably Irenaeus, as they were a pupil/teacher pair) believed in the fulfillment of the Daniel 9:24 portion of Daniel's 70 weeks by Christ at Calvary.

What about the 70th week then? What did they believe about that? As to Hippolytus, we know exactly what he believed about it. It's contained in the same writings verses 16 through 18 that you submitted came from.

22. For when the threescore and two weeks are fulfilled, and Christ is come, and the Gospel is preached in every place, the times being then accomplished, there will remain only one week, the last, in which Elias will appear, and Enoch, and in the midst of it the abomination of desolation will be manifested,1316 viz., Antichrist, announcing desolation to the world. And when he comes, the sacrifice and oblation will be removed, which now are offered to God in every place by the nations. These things being thus recounted, the prophet again describes another vision to us. For he had no other care save to be accurately instructed in all things that are to be, and to prove himself an instructor in such.

38. The prophet then, after thus recounting the things which have taken place already, and been fulfilled in their times, declares yet another mystery to us, while he points out the last times. For he says: “And there shall rise up another shameless king; and he shall exalt himself above every god, and shall magnify himself, and shall speak marvellous things, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished;” and so forth. “And these shall escape out of his hand, Edom, and Moab, and the chief (or principality) of the children of Ammon. And he shall stretch forth his hand upon the land; and the land of Egypt shall not escape. And he shall have power over the secret treasures of gold and silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt and of the Libyans, and the Ethiopians in their strongholds.”

39. Thus, then, does the prophet set forth these things concerning the Antichrist, who shall be shameless, a war-maker, and despot, who, exalting himself above all kings and above every god, shall build the city of Jerusalem, and restore the sanctuary. Him the impious will worship as God, and will bend to him the knee, thinking him to be the Christ. He shall cut off the two witnesses and forerunners of Christ, who proclaim His glorious kingdom from heaven, as it is said: “And I will give (power) unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.”1330 As also it was announced to Daniel: “And one week shall confirm a covenant with many; and in the midst of the week it shall be that the sacrifice and oblation shall be removed”—that the one week might be shown to be divided into two. The two witnesses, then, shall preach three years and a half; and Antichrist shall make war upon the saints during the rest of the week, and desolate the world, that what is written may be fulfilled: “And they shall make the abomination of desolation for a thousand two hundred and ninety days.”

43. By the stretching forth of His two hands He signified His passion; and by mentioning “a time, and times, and an half, when the dispersion is accomplished,” He indicated the three years and a half of Antichrist. For by “a time” He means a year, and by “times” two years, and by an “half time” half a year. These are the thousand two hundred and ninety days of which Daniel prophesied for the finishing of the passion, and the accomplishment of the dispersion when Antichrist comes. In those days they shall know all these things. And from the time of the removal of the continuous sacrifice there are also reckoned one thousand two hundred and ninety days. (Then) iniquity shall abound, as the Lord also says: “Because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.”1333

44. And that divisions will arise when the falling away takes place, is without doubt. And when divisions arise, love is chilled. The words, “Blessed is he that waiteth and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days,” have also their value, as the Lord said: “But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” Wherefore let us by no means admit the falling away, lest iniquity abound, and the abomination of desolation—that is, the adversary—overtake us. And He said to him, “unto evening”—that is, unto the consummation—“and morning.” What is “morning?” The day of resurrection. For that is the beginning of another age, as the morning is the beginning of the day. And the thousand and four hundred days are the light of the world. For on the appearing of the light in the world (as He says, “I am the light of the world”), the sanctuary shall be purged, as he said,1334 (of) the adversary. For it cannot by any means be purged but by his destruction.
ANF05. Fathers of the Third Century: Hippolytus, Cyprian, Caius, Novatian, Appendix - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

How then does the above equal what you said here?----Seventieth week decapitation is overwhelmingly an invention of dispensational modernism.

So you think someone such as Hippolytus fits this part---dispensational modernism?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Andrewn said: ↑
Premillennial theories differ in who remains on earth after Armageddon:

A) In Dispensational Premil (DPM), it is unbelievers and the wicked who are left behind.

Hello Andrewn

This verse in Peter is the only one that uses "day of God" which is used in only 2 verses of the entire Bible. [tho the phrase "the Day of the Lord" is used many times] and is used in Revelation concerning Armageddon/Gog-Magog............

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon
"day of god" occurs 2 times in 2 verses in the NKJV.

2 Peter 3:12
toward expectation and hastening the parousia of the day of the God, by which heavens, being fired<1448> shall being dissolved/loosed<3089> dissolved, and elements being burned<2741> is being melted<5082>

Revelation 16:14
For they are spirits of demons, doing sings which is going out on the kings of the whole inhabited-house/land/oikoumenhV <3625>to be mobilizing/leading them into the battle of the great day of God Almighty.

 

[Biblewriter]

What about the 70th week then? What did they believe about that? As to Hippolytus, we know exactly what he believed about it. It's contained in the same writings verses 16 through 18 that you submitted came from.

22. For when the threescore and two weeks are fulfilled, and Christ is come, and the Gospel is preached in every place, the times being then accomplished, there will remain only one week, the last, in which Elias will appear, and Enoch, and in the midst of it the abomination of desolation will be manifested,1316 viz., Antichrist, announcing desolation to the world. And when he comes, the sacrifice and oblation will be removed, which now are offered to God in every place by the nations. These things being thus recounted, the prophet again describes another vision to us. For he had no other care save to be accurately instructed in all things that are to be, and to prove himself an instructor in such.

38. The prophet then, after thus recounting the things which have taken place already, and been fulfilled in their times, declares yet another mystery to us, while he points out the last times. For he says: “And there shall rise up another shameless king; and he shall exalt himself above every god, and shall magnify himself, and shall speak marvellous things, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished;” and so forth. “And these shall escape out of his hand, Edom, and Moab, and the chief (or principality) of the children of Ammon. And he shall stretch forth his hand upon the land; and the land of Egypt shall not escape. And he shall have power over the secret treasures of gold and silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt and of the Libyans, and the Ethiopians in their strongholds.”

39. Thus, then, does the prophet set forth these things concerning the Antichrist, who shall be shameless, a war-maker, and despot, who, exalting himself above all kings and above every god, shall build the city of Jerusalem, and restore the sanctuary. Him the impious will worship as God, and will bend to him the knee, thinking him to be the Christ. He shall cut off the two witnesses and forerunners of Christ, who proclaim His glorious kingdom from heaven, as it is said: “And I will give (power) unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.”1330 As also it was announced to Daniel: “And one week shall confirm a covenant with many; and in the midst of the week it shall be that the sacrifice and oblation shall be removed”—that the one week might be shown to be divided into two. The two witnesses, then, shall preach three years and a half; and Antichrist shall make war upon the saints during the rest of the week, and desolate the world, that what is written may be fulfilled: “And they shall make the abomination of desolation for a thousand two hundred and ninety days.”

43. By the stretching forth of His two hands He signified His passion; and by mentioning “a time, and times, and an half, when the dispersion is accomplished,” He indicated the three years and a half of Antichrist. For by “a time” He means a year, and by “times” two years, and by an “half time” half a year. These are the thousand two hundred and ninety days of which Daniel prophesied for the finishing of the passion, and the accomplishment of the dispersion when Antichrist comes. In those days they shall know all these things. And from the time of the removal of the continuous sacrifice there are also reckoned one thousand two hundred and ninety days. (Then) iniquity shall abound, as the Lord also says: “Because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.”1333

44. And that divisions will arise when the falling away takes place, is without doubt. And when divisions arise, love is chilled. The words, “Blessed is he that waiteth and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days,” have also their value, as the Lord said: “But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” Wherefore let us by no means admit the falling away, lest iniquity abound, and the abomination of desolation—that is, the adversary—overtake us. And He said to him, “unto evening”—that is, unto the consummation—“and morning.” What is “morning?” The day of resurrection. For that is the beginning of another age, as the morning is the beginning of the day. And the thousand and four hundred days are the light of the world. For on the appearing of the light in the world (as He says, “I am the light of the world”), the sanctuary shall be purged, as he said,1334 (of) the adversary. For it cannot by any means be purged but by his destruction.
ANF05. Fathers of the Third Century: Hippolytus, Cyprian, Caius, Novatian, Appendix - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

How then does the above equal what you said here?----Seventieth week decapitation is overwhelmingly an invention of dispensational modernism.

So you think someone such as Hippolytus fits this part---dispensational modernism?

Don’t bother him with facts. His mind is already made up.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

jgr said: ↑
Hippolytus: (Daniel 9:24 fulfillment) 16. That transgressions, therefore, are blotted out, and that reconciliation is made for sins, is shown by this. But who are they who have reconciliation made for their sins, but they who believe on His name, and propitiate His countenance by good works? And that after the return of the people from Babylon there was a space of 434 years [bible.ca note: the actual number is 538 years till Christ's birth], until the time of the birth of Christ, may be easily understood. For, since the first covenant was given to the children of Israel after a period of 434 years, it follows that the second covenant also should be defined by the same space of time, in order that it might be expected by the people and easily recognised by the faithful.

DavidPT said: ↑
What about the 70th week then? What did they believe about that? As to Hippolytus, we know exactly what he believed about it. It's contained in the same writings verses 16 through 18 that you submitted came from.

Don’t bother him with facts. His mind is already made up.

Hello Biblewriter. Ah, shot below the belt.....ouch. And yours isn't?

Being a Preterist, I generally will disagree with much of your view of the Bible taken from a Dispensationalist Futurist view, which according to you, has involved about 40yrs of Bible study
The Saints of Revelation

Biblewriter said: ↑
In the first place, as one who has been a leader among dispensationalists for more than forty years, I have never heard even one recognized leader in the entire movement say that Revelation 4:1 is the Rapture.
But that is a side issue. The basic argument here is that the word "saints" necessarily means "Christians."
This is plainly incorrect, as can be seen in the following passages of scripture, not even one of which could even possibly refer to Christians.

That aside,I remember you posted about your book sometime back.
Announcement

Biblewriter said: ↑
For any who might be interested, my book, "Ancient Dispensational Truth," which covers much that I have posted in this forum, Is finally available for online purchase through Dispensational Publishing House.

https://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Dispensational-Truth-Refuting-Dispensationalism/dp/1945774290

As a favorite commentator of mine said:

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/tablecontents.htm

Kindgdom Bible Studies Lambs Book of Life Part 1

"And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his heads the names of blasphemy. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13:1,8). According to the Emphatic Diaglott the correct rendering of the latter part of this passage is: "The Book of the Life of the Lamb." Now, what is meant by this term – THE BOOK OF THE LIFE OF THE LAMB? The wise man said, "...of the making of many books there is no end..." (Eccl. 12:12).

The book stores are filled to overflowing today with all types of books dealing with every aspect of earthly life.
Even in the church world there are books setting forth every kind of viewpoint relating to God, the Bible, doctrine, Christian experience, and church order. However the subject material of most of these books largely contains a message of religious tradition and spiritual death.
But God is also producing a book – a book containing a message of life. For the past two millenniums God, by His Holy Spirit, has been writing portions of this Book in the minds and hearts of His people.

There is a branch of literature known as biography. Biographies are the histories of individual lives, an account of a person's life, written or told by another. If the author of the book is the person about whom it is written it is called an autobiography – the story of one's own life written by oneself. The Book of Life is called THE BOOK OF THE LIFE OF THE LAMB is the autobiography of God's Lamb, the record of who He is, what He is like, and what He does. Everything you always wanted to know about the Son of God is contained in this wonderful Book of the Life of the Lamb! It is not a literal book, of course, for the sons and daughters of the Most High are the LIVING RECORD AND REVELATION of the life of the indwelling Lamb.

 

[jgr]

What about the 70th week then? What did they believe about that? As to Hippolytus, we know exactly what he believed about it. It's contained in the same writings verses 16 through 18 that you submitted came from.

22. For when the threescore and two weeks are fulfilled, and Christ is come, and the Gospel is preached in every place, the times being then accomplished, there will remain only one week, the last, in which Elias will appear, and Enoch, and in the midst of it the abomination of desolation will be manifested,1316 viz., Antichrist, announcing desolation to the world. And when he comes, the sacrifice and oblation will be removed, which now are offered to God in every place by the nations. These things being thus recounted, the prophet again describes another vision to us. For he had no other care save to be accurately instructed in all things that are to be, and to prove himself an instructor in such.

38. The prophet then, after thus recounting the things which have taken place already, and been fulfilled in their times, declares yet another mystery to us, while he points out the last times. For he says: “And there shall rise up another shameless king; and he shall exalt himself above every god, and shall magnify himself, and shall speak marvellous things, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished;” and so forth. “And these shall escape out of his hand, Edom, and Moab, and the chief (or principality) of the children of Ammon. And he shall stretch forth his hand upon the land; and the land of Egypt shall not escape. And he shall have power over the secret treasures of gold and silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt and of the Libyans, and the Ethiopians in their strongholds.”

39. Thus, then, does the prophet set forth these things concerning the Antichrist, who shall be shameless, a war-maker, and despot, who, exalting himself above all kings and above every god, shall build the city of Jerusalem, and restore the sanctuary. Him the impious will worship as God, and will bend to him the knee, thinking him to be the Christ. He shall cut off the two witnesses and forerunners of Christ, who proclaim His glorious kingdom from heaven, as it is said: “And I will give (power) unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.”1330 As also it was announced to Daniel: “And one week shall confirm a covenant with many; and in the midst of the week it shall be that the sacrifice and oblation shall be removed”—that the one week might be shown to be divided into two. The two witnesses, then, shall preach three years and a half; and Antichrist shall make war upon the saints during the rest of the week, and desolate the world, that what is written may be fulfilled: “And they shall make the abomination of desolation for a thousand two hundred and ninety days.”

43. By the stretching forth of His two hands He signified His passion; and by mentioning “a time, and times, and an half, when the dispersion is accomplished,” He indicated the three years and a half of Antichrist. For by “a time” He means a year, and by “times” two years, and by an “half time” half a year. These are the thousand two hundred and ninety days of which Daniel prophesied for the finishing of the passion, and the accomplishment of the dispersion when Antichrist comes. In those days they shall know all these things. And from the time of the removal of the continuous sacrifice there are also reckoned one thousand two hundred and ninety days. (Then) iniquity shall abound, as the Lord also says: “Because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.”1333

44. And that divisions will arise when the falling away takes place, is without doubt. And when divisions arise, love is chilled. The words, “Blessed is he that waiteth and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days,” have also their value, as the Lord said: “But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” Wherefore let us by no means admit the falling away, lest iniquity abound, and the abomination of desolation—that is, the adversary—overtake us. And He said to him, “unto evening”—that is, unto the consummation—“and morning.” What is “morning?” The day of resurrection. For that is the beginning of another age, as the morning is the beginning of the day. And the thousand and four hundred days are the light of the world. For on the appearing of the light in the world (as He says, “I am the light of the world”), the sanctuary shall be purged, as he said,1334 (of) the adversary. For it cannot by any means be purged but by his destruction.
ANF05. Fathers of the Third Century: Hippolytus, Cyprian, Caius, Novatian, Appendix - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

How then does the above equal what you said here?----Seventieth week decapitation is overwhelmingly an invention of dispensational modernism.

So you think someone such as Hippolytus fits this part---dispensational modernism?

Hippolytus futurized Daniel 9:26-27, although not to an indeterminate future, but to his estimated date of the Second Coming of about 500 AD. Obviously that came and went uneventfully.

He recognized Daniel 9:24 as completely fulfilled.

He qualifies as neither dispensational nor modernist.

 

[jgr]

Don’t bother him with facts. His mind is already made up.

As were the minds of our historical forebears of the true faith.

 

[BABerean2]

That aside,I remember you posted about your book sometime back.
Announcement
https://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Dispensational-Truth-Refuting-Dispensationalism/dp/1945774290

How many pages of the book are dedicated to the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and fulfilled by the blood of Christ at Calvary?

How many earlier sources of the doctrine claimed modern Jews would come to salvation outside of the Church?

.

 

[DavidPT]

Hippolytus futurized Daniel 9:26-27, although not to an indeterminate future, but to his estimated date of the Second Coming of about 500 AD. Obviously that came and went uneventfully.

He recognized Daniel 9:24 as completely fulfilled.

He qualifies as neither dispensational nor modernist.

I don't get why you are even using an ECF that doesn't fully support your position? Hippolytus obviously believed in a gap, and obviously believed the AC fulfills verse 27, neither being anything you would agree with. How does that help your position any? I realize you indicated he believed all of verse 24 was fulfilled. Yet he sure didn't interpret verse 27 like some of you do though. Many of you have Jesus fulfilling verse 27, thus in your minds, a connection with that of verse 24. Hippolytus had the ac fulfilling verse 27, thus no connection with verse 24 at all.

 

[jgr]

I don't get why you are even using an ECF that doesn't fully support your position? Hippolytus obviously believed in a gap, and obviously believed the AC fulfills verse 27, neither being anything you would agree with. How does that help your position any? I realize you indicated he believed all of verse 24 was fulfilled. Yet he sure didn't interpret verse 27 like some of you do though. Many of you have Jesus fulfilling verse 27, thus in your minds, a connection with that of verse 24. Hippolytus had the ac fulfilling verse 27, thus no connection with verse 24 at all.

I've been pointing out that even though modern dispensationalism attempts to cite him for support, his view of Daniel's 70 weeks bears as much resemblance to historical non-dispensationalism as it does to modern dispensationalism.

In totality, his views are an anomaly and an outlier amongst the predominant views of the clear majority of historical defenders of the true faith.

 

[DavidPT]

and in the midst of it the abomination of desolation will be manifested,1316 viz., Antichrist, announcing desolation to the world. And when he comes, the sacrifice and oblation will be removed, which now are offered to God in every place by the nations.ANF05. Fathers of the Third Century: Hippolytus, Cyprian, Caius, Novatian, Appendix - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Hippolytus concluded this way post 70 AD. He couldn't possibly be meaning in a literal sense, as to the sacrifice and oblation, as in animal sacrificing in a literal temple, if he says this about those---which now are offered to God in every place by the nations. What are one's thoughts on what he meant here?

I for one believe the 70th week happens in the end of this age, yet I don't believe it literally involves a literal temple in Jerusalem where animal sacrificing has resumed, then put to an end yet again. It appears Hippolytus perhaps didn't believe that either.

 

[Biblewriter]

Sadly, yes. They were SO invested in the lie that "Popery is the Antichrist" that they never saw their errors.

 

[Biblewriter]

I've been pointing out that even though modern dispensationalism attempts to cite him for support, his view of Daniel's 70 weeks bears as much resemblance to historical non-dispensationalism as it does to modern dispensationalism.

In totality, his views are an anomaly and an outlier amongst the predominant views of the clear majority of historical defenders of the true faith.

His views are UNQUESTIONABLY the oldest recorded views of the early that have been preserved. So, rather than being "an outlier," his views are the very beginning of the history of Christian commentary on scripture.

And these were also the views on Ireneus, who, according to Eusebius, followed the views in Papias, whose writings were completely destroyed by the Medieval monks.

 

[jgr]

Sadly, yes. They were SO invested in the lie that "Popery is the Antichrist" that they never saw their errors.

Without that "lie", there would have been no Reformation, and you would not be here to mock it.

But such is the perfidy and betrayal intrinsic to dispensational heterodoxy.

 

[Biblewriter]

Without that "lie", there would have been no Reformation, and you would not be here to mock it.

But such is the perfidy and betrayal intrinsic to dispensational heterodoxy.

The reformation was NOT the doctrine that Popery is the Antichrist. This was simply a reaction to Popery's rejection of the reformation, which was TOTALLY a matter of soteriology, NOT of eschatology.

 

[jgr]

The reformation was NOT the doctrine that Popery is the Antichrist. This was simply a reaction to Popery's rejection of the reformation, which was TOTALLY a matter of soteriology, NOT of eschatology.

Typical dispensational revisionism. The declaration of the apostate papacy as antichrist appeared well in advance of the Reformation.

It was one of the Reformation's foundational doctrines from the beginning.

 

[Biblewriter]

Typical dispensational revisionism. The declaration of the apostate papacy as antichrist appeared well in advance of the Reformation.

It was one of the Reformation's foundational doctrines from the beginning.

The HARD FACT that the Papacy is apostate does not even imply that it is THE ANTICHRIST prophesied in scripture.

In order to make the Papacy out to be "the Antichrist," it is necessary to pretend that MOST of end time Bible prophecy simply does not mean what it EXPLICITLY says.

 

[jgr]

The HARD FACT that the Papacy is apostate does not even imply that it is THE ANTICHRIST prophesied in scripture.

In order to make the Papacy out to be "the Antichrist," it is necessary to pretend that MOST of end time Bible prophecy simply does not mean what it EXPLICITLY says.

The Reformers referred to both "Antichrist" and "the Antichrist", recognizing from John's epistles that antichrist was both a plurality that had long been present, as well as a specific manifestation predominant in, but not exclusive to, their particular era.

That is, they were Scriptural, not dispensational, in their understanding.