The original Hebrews and even Jesus were dark skinned?

[ananda]

Revelation 3:9 ... Here we clearly have a group of people saying they are Jews but are NOT ... Some believe this group still exists today, still claiming to be "Jews"...yet are not

Personally, I hold the view that it is referring to Paul.

 

[Lulav]

Another thought....Ishamel and Isaac have the same father, but different mothers. Why is one did one lead to the people of Israel (Jews) but Ishamel led to the development of the Arabs (gentiles)?

Of course I don't expect non-Jews to agree with this all, but since you asked about traditional Judaism

Give me a day or so and I'll try to hunt up the article for you.

Shem with Shem - Isaac
Shem with Ham - Ishmael

 

[Lulav]

The SYNONGOGUE of Satan...who is this group?


This is what I'm really trying to get at.


The Lord Jesus says in Revelation 3:9
"Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are NOT, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee."



Here we clearly have a group of people saying they are Jews but are NOT


Some believe this group still exists today, still claiming to be "Jews"...yet are not

Well at least we're getting down to brass tacks now. You apparently don't realize that it is in poor form to go into a Messianic forum and bring up the synagogue of the adversary and accuse Jews of being such.

One must look at this at the time it was written.

During the first century it was very dangerous to be a Jew. Do some research and know your history.

So why would it benefit someone to say they were a Jew when they were not?

The only reason I can think of is to lead Jews astray, to do things that break the Torah, to lead them away from Torah, thus this would be the work of the Adversary.

 

[Four Years]

Lulav, I am just trying to learn...trying to wade through the muck of information and belief systems out there


I can say that since creating these threads yesterday, I have already learned alot.

 

[ChavaK]

Denmark, which in it's native tongue is Danmark - Dan Mark

That's it!

 

[Gxg (G²)]

The SYNONGOGUE of Satan...who is this group?


This is what I'm really trying to get at.


The Lord Jesus says in Revelation 3:9
"Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are NOT, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee."



Here we clearly have a group of people saying they are Jews but are NOT


Some believe this group still exists today, still claiming to be "Jews"...yet are not

Not really certain how the OP switched from being on Jews possibly being of color/dark-skinned in the OT and then switching to those of the synagouge of Satan. Regardless, if I may say, it'd probably be a help to you to simply do a basic review by utilizing the Search Engine on the forum/looking up to see where the question you asked was addressed before bringing it up further. There are some places one can go that recently discussed the issue, such as here and here and here (with the possibilities discussed being that the synagouge was either Gentiles pretending to be Jewish/doing as the Judaizers did in persecuting others in trying to conform them to standards the Lord didn't have....or Judaizers who were Jewish/seeking to make Gentiles do things the Lord didn't require....or Jews who were into the Occult/idolatry and persecuting those who followed the Lord). Hope the info helps you in your studies.

 

[Lulav]

Lulav, I am just trying to learn...trying to wade through the muck of information and belief systems out there


I can say that since creating these threads yesterday, I have already learned alot.

I understand, there is lots to wade through out there, but really, putting it in red just made it all the more disrespectful, just so you are aware.

you are the one who posted about Deut. 28, right? well a lot of that has happened where we are vilified and this is one of those ways, and 99% of the time by Christians who say they love Jesus, but don't recognize he was and still is, a Jew.

 

[visionary]

Thar church of Revelation was about those who claim to be "Jews" and are not. Those who were real Jews were not considered to be the synagogue of Satan.

 

[freezerman2000]

Hebrews - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Apparently,Jacob's sons went to Egypt from Canaan to escape severe drought,and later came to rule lower Egypt as the Hyksos.Maybe that is why Moses was referred to as an Egyptian after he fled the country.

 

[yedida]

Not really certain how the OP switched from being on Jews possibly being of color/dark-skinned in the OT and then switching to those of the synagouge of Satan. Regardless, if I may say, it'd probably be a help to you to simply do a basic review by utilizing the Search Engine on the forum/looking up to see where the question you asked was addressed before bringing it up further. There are some places one can go that recently discussed the issue, such as here and here and here (with the possibilities discussed being that the synagouge was either Gentiles pretending to be Jewish/doing as the Judaizers did in persecuting others in trying to conform them to standards the Lord didn't have....or Judaizers who were Jewish/seeking to make Gentiles do things the Lord didn't require....or Jews who were into the Occult/idolatry and persecuting those who followed the Lord). Hope the info helps you in your studies.

I think he found himself in deep ____ as the saying goes. Trying to climb out.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I think he found himself in deep ____ as the saying goes. Trying to climb out.

That's definately one way of seeing it. The saying always is a heavy one...

I hope the conversation isn't going to be one of those based on what happens whenever people say that all Israelites were always black/all other Jews - especially those who are European Jews - are deemed to be 'false Jews' like the Black Israelites of Harlem do (discussed in #271, #279 and #280 ), no different than those for who are for British Israelism/saying blacks are cursed and Caucasians are universally the children of Israel (as shared in #92 and #48 ). I'm all for discussion on the ways the Hebrews originally looked since there is something to be said on how often depictions of Christ or Jews as dark-skinned has been outright denoucned as a problem and yet no one has any issue with showing the Lord depicted as looking European---or others only being comfortable showing Christ as a Middle Easterner of light complexion rather than addressing how many Middle Easterns were and still are of Dark Complexion and many in Middle-Eastern/Near-Eastern and North African culture were darker in complexion than many realize.

This has come up often when it comes to seeing early church history and the ways that many parts had no issue depicting Christ/Yeshua as being of darker complexion (for all groups that have issue with that today). Brother ContranMundum recommended to me the work of one scholar, Thomas Oden, who did a lot of coverage on the issue (#39 and #42 )

​

There's also the Black Madonna of Częstochowa ..and other Church fathers shown with darker features:​

​

That said, although ancient history does show many instances of it not being problematic to depict the Lord or the Hebrews as being of darker complexion, to argue that ALL of the Hebrew people had to black is overstating a case...and ignoring the ways there was much diversity in the Jewish world. If it's about accuracy on facts/presentation, that's one thing. However, it can come off differently when avoiding dealing with the ways Jewish people have always been of differing backgrounds for a long time.

 

[Four Years]

Can we post videos here?


A video called Proof: BIBLICAL ISRAELITES WERE BLACK


PROOF: BIBLICAL ISRAELITES WERE BLACK & WHY IT DOES MATTER - YouTube


This kind of stuff is all over Youtube and the internet and yes, I DO find it convincing at the very least


I've watched this particular one at least 5 times

 

[yedida]

So what? Does it make a difference? Does it validate people of color? Does it validate caucasians (not sure of sp) if he was white? I don't think he was specifically either - he was from the Middle East, he would have their features as they were 2000 years ago. But whatever he looked like, doesn't change who or what he is. Sheesh......

They knew not him, repeated, for what purpose? Because he looked Egyptian? Of course, he did. But if he was black, is the video trying to say the brothers were not? Is it trying to imply that they didn't recognize him because of his color? He was their brother.
And then a white man's hand cannot turn white as snow? So a white man's skin is white as snow according to the video Sheesh
I'm sorry the video is too non-sensical to waste any further time on it. It's a joke. You wasted 2 1/2 of your precious time here on earth watching that thing when you could have been doing something of importance and you cannot redeem that time - it's forever gone, wasted.

 

[ananda]

"But YHWH said ... Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have rejected him: for YHWH seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but YHWH looketh on the heart." 1Sa 16:7

 

[Four Years]

Thanks yedida for your thoughts, here's my response.


The title of the video has "WHY IT DOES MATTER" for a reason.


I think the reason it MATTERS is because of Bible Prophecy.


Either Israel being created/re-created in 1948 and all the Jews coming back to it is Prophecy being fulfilled or it's not...it's that simple.


If that was NOT Prophecy being fulfilled...then the History Books are a lie and for there to be a lie, SOMEBODY had to put forth that lie. SOMEBODY wants the world to believe a lie, that's why I can see this mattering.


I'm skeptical but open minded at the same time.

 

[yedida]

Thanks yedida for your thoughts, here's my response.


The title of the video has "WHY IT DOES MATTER" for a reason.


I think the reason it MATTERS is because of Bible Prophecy.


Either Israel being created/re-created in 1948 and all the Jews coming back to it is Prophecy being fulfilled or it's not...it's that simple.


If that was NOT Prophecy being fulfilled...then the History Books are a lie and for there to be a lie, SOMEBODY had to put forth that lie. SOMEBODY wants the world to believe a lie, that's why I can see this mattering.


I'm skeptical but open minded at the same time.

And that's where faith comes in. Not the color of someone's skin. Even the Africans have different shades of coloring, right down to looking like a white man. And the whites have so many different shades that many look as though they were of the black race. You cannot put your finger on a man's coloring and tell as a matter of fact what "race" he is from....you run into a lot of problems trying to do that. People are people are people - it's best to leave it at that.

 

[motherprayer]

And that's where faith comes in. Not the color of someone's skin. Even the Africans have different shades of coloring, right down to looking like a white man. And the whites have so many different shades that many look as though they were of the black race. You cannot put your finger on a man's coloring and tell as a matter of fact what "race" he is from....you run into a lot of problems trying to do that. People are people are people - it's best to leave it at that.

Well said! A Beautiful statement!

 

[Gxg (G²)]

So what? Does it make a difference? Does it validate people of color? Does it validate caucasians (not sure of sp) if he was white? I don't think he was specifically either - he was from the Middle East, he would have their features as they were 2000 years ago. But whatever he looked like, doesn't change who or what he is. Sheesh......

They knew not him, repeated, for what purpose? Because he looked Egyptian? Of course, he did. But if he was black, is the video trying to say the brothers were not? Is it trying to imply that they didn't recognize him because of his color? He was their brother.

And then a white man's hand cannot turn white as snow? So a white man's skin is white as snow according to the video Sheesh

I'm sorry the video is too non-sensical to waste any further time on it. It's a joke. You wasted 2 1/2 of your precious time here on earth watching that thing when you could have been doing something of importance and you cannot redeem that time - it's forever gone, wasted.

The video did seem a bit bizzare. Although there were some good points that even other Jewish people/groups have made (specifically, those who are non-black arguing in favor of Jews of color), some of the other arguments got way out of hand.....especially the ones you pointed out with Moses Hand turning white as snow (as light-skinned people have had leprosy and you can clearly tell a BIG difference when the skin starts to rot/become pale---the meaning of "white as snow").

When it got to the point of comparing light-skinned Jews of today to those of older times, it seemed to be bordering on anti-semitism since it brought the message that light-skinned Jews could not have been in Biblical times ..and at the worse, saying that light skinned/caucasian Jews aren't really as Jewish as those who are black. That always is needless...and it actually does damage to valid issues such as seeing how many have an issue with seeing portrayals of Biblical figures with dark complexion---for what the video did was misapply arguments to the wrong conclusions.

If one wants to discuss the ways that the Hebrews (And perhaps even Christ) may've been of darker complexion, there's nothing wrong with that since other believers have noted the same....but saying that they HAD to all be black is just as bad as the people saying all the Hebrews are those in the British Isles.

What matters truly is whether or not His Blood was red and was shed

The Blood Song Kirk Franklin​

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Even the Africans have different shades of coloring, right down to looking like a white man. And the whites have so many different shades that many look as though they were of the black race. You cannot put your finger on a man's coloring and tell as a matter of fact what "race" he is from....you run into a lot of problems trying to do that. .

So true, especially when considering the ways people have been stereotyped, with Italians being of dark complexion (as I met one who was mixed between Italian/African of some sort)---or the Greeks who were olive-skinned and yet they were called the same deragatory names as blacks were when they came over in the 1800s...or the blacks who are red.

Even as it concerns genetics, it's not as if things have switched and interesting results come up...as believe genes can do outrageous things.

​

"While very rare, the phenomenon is not unknown, though it does entail a very particular combination of circumstances at the moment of conception. First, both parents must be of mixed race. Second, the twins must be fraternal (each conceived from a separate egg fertilized by separate sperm) as opposed to identical (both conceived from a single egg and sperm). Third, each sperm and egg must carry the genes for a particular skin color (i.e., black/black or white/white)."

In the case of the males pictured, the Caribbean father assuredly carried some European genes that recombined, in rare fashion, with the white mother. For those interested, here is a technical genetic explanation of what is going on (here).

Thus, who's to say that even those Hebrews who were darker didn't have it to where they had mixture in their ancestry with lighter-skinned groups and over time things came back?

Regardless, there are Jewish people returning to Israel from all types of backgrounds/shades, be it Black or Yellow or Brown and so many others....and they are all seeing the Lord Yeshua.

People are people are people

 

[Lulav]

It should make one wonder why this is becoming such a controversy. Firstly the depictions of him are defiantly not Jewish, so what is called Jesus is not Yeshua.

Some say Lucy was black. So how did it happen this color change?

It seems that yes, there are many books and videos and interviews about this, but the real question should be why? Why are black people trying to say that they are the real Jews? I don't think this is so much about Jesus as about being a Jew. Where were all these when the white Jews were being burnt up in the ovens?