The Order of Salavation

d taylor · Mar 16, 2023

FutureAndAHope said:
Not at all. I am justified by faith in Jesus's death and resurrection, I don't have to doubt my salvation, but I do need to daily live my life in reverence for God, not giving in to the flesh.

A gospel that says it is all faith, and we can just let the flesh in as often as we like, is not the gospel at all.

Gal 5:13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

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It is not faith in Jesus death and resurrection that gives a person God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation. No where in The Bible is that stated.

It is faith in Jesus that gives a person God's free gift of Eternal Life. That is to believe that He Jesus is who He says He is. The promised Messiah from the prophecies of The Tanakh, the resurrection and the life.

That is stated many times in The Bible, I am always amazed how people can miss this, because it is stated so many times.

What Does It Mean to Believe in Jesus? – Grace Evangelical Society

d taylor · Mar 16, 2023

AbbaLove said:
Just for clarificaton the Judgement Seat Of the Lord Christ Jesus is not the Great White Throne Judgment.

And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:11). Those born again children of God were justified after they were sanctified

that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, (ESV)
that each of you know his own vessel to possess in sanctification and honour, (YLT)
that each of you should learn to control your own body in a way that is holy and honorable, (NIV)
That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; (KJV)

Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, “Behold, you have become well; do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you.” (John 5:14)
She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." (John 8:11)

Paul as an Apostleof Christ told the Corinthian Church to stop sinning (1 Corinthians 15:34) ...

awake up, as is right, and sin not; for certain have an ignorance of God; for shame to you I say it. (YLT)
Sober up morally and stop sinning, for some have no knowledge of God. I say this to your shame. (NASB)
Be sensible and stop sinning. You should be embarrassed that some people still don't know about God. (CEV)
Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. (KJV)
Think carefully about what is right, and stop sinning. For to your shame I say that some of you don’t know God at all. (NLT)

I never said it was, the judgment seat of The Messiah is only for believers.

Sure God/Jesus wants believers to live as holy life as they can. But that has nothing to do with an unbeliever having faith in Jesus and becoming a permanent born again child of God.

Doug Brents · Mar 16, 2023

MMXX said:
That sounds pretty much like the Catholic and Orthodox view that we are not saved, but are being saved. Theosis.

No, Rom 6:1-4 and Col 2:11-14 both tell us that during baptism the Holy Spirit removes our sin, unites us with Christ, and resurrects is with Him.

d taylor · Mar 16, 2023

Posted from

What Does It Mean to Believe in Jesus?

What Does It Mean to Believe in Jesus? – Grace Evangelical Society

Here is another way to look at it: faith in Jesus in the Biblical sense is not faith that He existed. It is not faith that He was born of a virgin. It is not faith that He is God. It is not faith that He died on the cross for our sins. It is not faith that He rose from the dead. A person can believe those five things and not believe what Jesus said in John 11:25-26. Saving faith is faith that all who believe in Him have everlasting life which can never be lost. Now believing those five things can and should lead to believing that all who simply believe in Jesus have everlasting life. But until one believes the saving message, he is not yet irrevocably saved.

ozso · Mar 16, 2023

FutureAndAHope said:
Not at all. I am justified by faith in Jesus's death and resurrection, I don't have to doubt my salvation, but I do need to daily live my life in reverence for God, not giving in to the flesh.

A gospel that says it is all faith, and we can just let the flesh in as often as we like, is not the gospel at all.

Gal 5:13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

I think that's a good way to state it.

I think if you ask a lot of Christians "what does it mean to be a Christian?", the answer will be "It means I get to go to heaven... period... end of story". "What about between now and then?". "That's not going to keep me from going to heaven".

Doug Brents · Mar 16, 2023

d taylor said:
Well you were wrong about this, about a year and a half back and then about 5 to 7 months back . When we debated this and now you are still wrong about this. I wish people on this site would have better memory of past debates, so i do not have to continue to hash over past debates again and again and again.

Well, as long as you continue to speak falsehoods, I will continue to tell you so.

Look at the Greek in all of the places the Bible speaks of belief in relation to salvation. Almost every one of them is from the Greek word pistis.

Strong's Concordance
pistis: faith, faithfulness
Original Word: πίστις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: pistis
Phonetic Spelling: (pis'-tis)
Definition: faith, faithfulness
Usage: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.

A leading lexicon for the NT, BDAG, says over 90% of the time Pistis refers to faith.

ozso · Mar 16, 2023

Doug Brents said:
Well, as long as you continue to speak falsehoods, I will continue to tell you so.

Look at the Greek in all of the places the Bible speaks of belief in relation to salvation. Almost every one of them is from the Greek word pistis.

Strong's Concordance
pistis: faith, faithfulness
Original Word: πίστις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: pistis
Phonetic Spelling: (pis'-tis)
Definition: faith, faithfulness
Usage: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.

A leading lexicon for the NT, BDAG, says over 90% of the time Pistis refers to faith.

Usage: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness. So what about the belief, trust, confidence part? And why do the bulk of translators use belief/believe, instead of faith/faithfulness?

When it comes to what a concordance or lexicon says a word means, one has to take into consideration what word most translators chose to use. Just like in English the same word can have very different meanings. "The WIND was so strong it blew down a tree" vs "he hoped he would WIND up on the right path" vs "I need to WIND my watch". You can't really determine what "WIND" means by just looking at the word by itself. You have to determine what "WIND" means by how it's being used in a sentence.

Now if the bulk of translators use belief/believe, then it's a forgone conclusion that's what it comes out as in those occasions, rather than faith/faithfulness.

John Mullally · Mar 17, 2023

FutureAndAHope said:
These verses regarding receiving the Holy Spirit, show us that obedience to God is very important in His eyes. Although it could be said that the primary work is faith in Jesus (John 6:29), His ability to forgive us our sins, it does not stop there. The scripture strongly shows the need for repentance, turning away from, sin. The order of receiving the Holy Spirit is:

We receive God’s commands

If we keep them, God will love us

God will manifest Himself to those He loves

I am taking a different tact showing the order directly from scripture. Ephesians 1:13-14 best shows the order of salvation. Its listen, believe, and then sealed in Him by the Holy Spirit. Acts 10:17 says that faith comes by hearing the word of God. And believe here is not merely intellectual assent (James 2:14-16) - it includes repentance. Notice that Ephesians 1:13-14 rules out pre-faith regeneration as being sealed in Him occurs after believing. No one is in Him (Christ) before believing.

Ephesians 1: 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory. (NASB)

This is in agreement with John 5:24.

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. (NASB)

We become a child of God through faith.

Galatians 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

FutureAndAHope · Mar 17, 2023

John Mullally said:
I am taking a different tact showing the order directly from scripture. Ephesians 1:13-14 best shows the order of salvation. Its listen, believe, and then sealed in Him by the Holy Spirit. Acts 10:17 says that faith comes by hearing the word of God. And believe here is not merely intellectual assent (James 2:14-16) - it includes repentance. Notice that Ephesians 1:13-14 rules out pre-faith regeneration as being sealed in Him occurs after believing. No one is in Him (Christ) before believing.

Ephesians 1: 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory. (NASB)

This is in agreement with John 5:24.

John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. (NASB)

We become a child of God through faith.

Galatians 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

I don't disagree with what you have said at all, I fully agree. I probably should have spent more time clarifying what I meant in writing. All I mean is repentance is a component of believing faith, and we must live out our faith daily, by not surrendering to the flesh.

Doug Brents · Mar 17, 2023

MMXX said:
Usage: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness. So what about the belief, trust, confidence part? And why do the bulk of translators use belief/believe, instead of faith/faithfulness?

When it comes to what a concordance or lexicon says a word means, one has to take into consideration what word most translators chose to use. Just like in English the same word can have very different meanings. "The WIND was so strong it blew down a tree" vs "he hoped he would WIND up on the right path" vs "I need to WIND my watch". You can't really determine what "WIND" means by just looking at the word by itself. You have to determine what "WIND" means by how it's being used in a sentence.

Now if the bulk of translators use belief/believe, then it's a forgone conclusion that's what it comes out as in those occasions, rather than faith/faithfulness.

I understand what you are saying, and you are partially correct. We must consider the context in which the word is situated, but we must also consider the rest of Scripture as well. Because there is no contradiction or confusion in Scripture, we must always adjust our understanding to what Scripture says, not twist Scripture to fit our understanding.

Because of that, we must recognize that there are several places where Scripture says there are actions we must take that lead to our reception of salvation. That means that “belief” cannot be a simple, passive, mental assent, but an active participation on our part. And that forces the understanding of the word pistis into the “faith” translation instead of that of “belief”.

ozso · Mar 17, 2023

Doug Brents said:
I understand what you are saying, and you are partially correct. We must consider the context in which the word is situated, but we must also consider the rest of Scripture as well. Because there is no contradiction or confusion in Scripture, we must always adjust our understanding to what Scripture says, not twist Scripture to fit our understanding.

Side A accuses side B of twisting scripture to fit the narrative and vice versa. In a lot of cases with widely held doctrine, but sides back up their view well.

Doug Brents said:
Because of that, we must recognize that there are several places where Scripture says there are actions we must take that lead to our reception of salvation. That means that “belief” cannot be a simple, passive, mental assent, but an active participation on our part. And that forces the understanding of the word pistis into the “faith” translation instead of that of “belief”.

But again, it comes down to most translators translating it as "belief". That's where the argument you're giving is always going to fall short. I personally very much believe in a participatory proactive relationship with the Lord. But nonetheless I can't see myself coming to the conclusion that most translators have all made the same mistake over the centuries.

Doug Brents · Mar 17, 2023

MMXX said:
Side A accuses side B of twisting scripture to fit the narrative and vice versa. In a lot of cases with widely held doctrine, but sides back up their view well.

No accusations intended. Simply making the statement that we must allow our understanding to be steered by Scripture, and not steering Scripture to fit our understanding.

MMXX said:
But again, it comes down to most translators translating it as "belief". That's where the argument you're giving is always going to fall short. I personally very much believe in a participatory proactive relationship with the Lord. But nonetheless I can't see myself coming to the conclusion that most translators have all made the same mistake over the centuries.

I don’t think it is necessarily a mistake in translation. I think it is a change in our perception of what “believe” means. Most of the people I speak with, especially ministers, see “belief” as a passive, purely mental exercise. But, in terms of Biblical interpretation, belief is not real unless it is acted upon. As Jesus said, “Now why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?” (Luke 6:46). If we are not doing what He said, He is not really our Lord, and we do not really believe what He says.

d taylor · Mar 17, 2023

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Satan's false work salvation's are alive and well or at best, false faith plus beliefs are!

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

If you are blind to Him, why do you say you see

ozso · Mar 17, 2023

Doug Brents said:
No accusations intended. Simply making the statement that we must allow our understanding to be steered by Scripture, and not steering Scripture to fit our understanding.

Right and those who disagree with you, say that's what you're doing. Just as you say it about them.

Doug Brents said:
I don’t think it is necessarily a mistake in translation. I think it is a change in our perception of what “believe” means. Most of the people I speak with, especially ministers, see “belief” as a passive, purely mental exercise. But, in terms of Biblical interpretation, belief is not real unless it is acted upon. As Jesus said, “Now why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?” (Luke 6:46). If we are not doing what He said, He is not really our Lord, and we do not really believe what He says.

Isn't that salvation based on performance?

Doug Brents · Mar 17, 2023

MMXX said:
Right and those who disagree with you, say that's what you're doing. Just as you say it about them.

That IS exactly what I am doing: allowing Scripture to dictate doctrine and not allowing personal ideas to influence my interpretation. I came by this understanding from reading Scripture, not from what someone else taught me. I had no preconceptions to influence my study.

MMXX said:
Isn't that salvation based on performance?

No. It is meeting the conditions set by God to receive His gift. The OT is full of conditions for receiving the blessings that God offers. The NT is too: If you confess Me before men, I will confess you before the Father (Matt 10:32). If you repent then I will forgive and send blessings, Acts 3:19. If/Then offers are found throughout the New Testament.

God’s love is completely unconditional and without end. But His blessings are 100% conditional; and that includes salvation.

ozso · Mar 17, 2023

Doug Brents said:
I came by this understanding from reading Scripture, not from what someone else taught me. I had no preconceptions to influence my study.

Brentsism?

Doug Brents said:
No. It is meeting the conditions set by God to receive His gift. The OT is full of conditions for receiving the blessings that God offers. The NT is too: If you confess Me before men, I will confess you before the Father (Matt 10:32). If you repent then I will forgive and send blessings, Acts 3:19. If/Then offers are found throughout the New Testament.

God’s love is completely unconditional and without end. But His blessings are 100% conditional; and that includes salvation.

It seems you essentially said if we don't do everything Jesus said, we're not saved. Basically between your last reply and this one, we have to meet the conditions of and do everything Jesus said at the 100% level.

d taylor · Mar 17, 2023

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Here is the actual account of mankind's situation.
Adam sinned and brought sin upon humanity, estranging humanity from God. God declared the payment for mans sin was blood. God stated He would right the wrong brought about by man. So He, God promised to come and take away the sin of the world and pay the price of blood, He required.

- This was the first step in restoring man back to God taking away the sin of the world, which has been acomplished (it is finished). God also declared that for man to again live with God in eternity, man need to receive/acquire the life of God. This life, Adam originally had (The Life of God) when he was created by God, but lost when he sinned . So God stated the way to receive The Life of God is through and by belief/faith in the promised Messiah, from the prophecies of The Tanakh, that God promised to send.

- When this promised Messiah came, the person known in the New Testament as Jesus. Perfectly fit the prophecies from The Tanakh of the promised Messiah. The gospel of John was written specifically for this purpose. To declare and show the world and people looking for the life of God, who God sent so they may place their faith, in this person to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation. That is it, that is God's plan to receive the life of God and spend eternity living with God on the new earth.

Without the Life of God, the only other place for a person to spend eternity is the lake of fire.

Doug Brents · Mar 18, 2023

MMXX said:
Brentsism?

ROTFL

No, just careful, extensive study of God’s Word.

MMXX said:
It seems you essentially said if we don't do everything Jesus said, we're not saved.

Not everything, just those thing Scripture says LEAD TO receipt of salvation. There are many things that must be done during the remainder of the person’s life that FLOW FROM the receipt of salvation.

MMXX said:
Basically between your last reply and this one, we have to meet the conditions of and do everything Jesus said at the 100% level.

That is not humanly possible, but should be striven toward. We are commanded, once we are “in Christ”, to seek to emulate Christ, to walk in the Light, to love others, and to bring honor and glory to Him. But we are also told that we will continually fail in this, and that we will continually be forgiven as long as we continually seek Christ and repent from those wrongs. As Revelation says, we will be judged on what we did, not just on what we thought, gave mental assent to, or felt strongly about.

John Mullally · Mar 18, 2023

Doug Brents said:
ROTFL

No, just careful, extensive study of God’s Word.

Not everything, just those thing Scripture says LEAD TO receipt of salvation. There are many things that must be done during the remainder of the person’s life that FLOW FROM the receipt of salvation.

That is not humanly possible, but should be striven toward. We are commanded, once we are “in Christ”, to seek to emulate Christ, to walk in the Light, to love others, and to bring honor and glory to Him. But we are also told that we will continually fail in this, and that we will continually be forgiven as long as we continually seek Christ and repent from those wrongs. As Revelation says, we will be judged on what we did, not just on what we thought, gave mental assent to, or felt strongly about.

The "Brentism" remark shook me too as I don't see how you, MMX, and myself are that far apart. Peace.

ozso · Mar 18, 2023

Doug Brents said:
Not everything, just those thing Scripture says LEAD TO receipt of salvation. There are many things that must be done during the remainder of the person’s life that FLOW FROM the receipt of salvation.

That is not humanly possible, but should be striven toward. We are commanded, once we are “in Christ”, to seek to emulate Christ, to walk in the Light, to love others, and to bring honor and glory to Him. But we are also told that we will continually fail in this, and that we will continually be forgiven as long as we continually seek Christ and repent from those wrongs. As Revelation says, we will be judged on what we did, not just on what we thought, gave mental assent to, or felt strongly about.

But that still begs the question of how much needs to be done to become and stay saved.

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