The old Testament

[bèlla]

So my question is, why is the Old testament still in the Bible if it's not relevant still? And, if it is still relevant, how do you choose what's relevant and what's not (mixed fabrics, eating seafood, gays)

I would not have come to faith in God and Christ without the Old Testament. I achieved both in a Jewish setting without hearing the gospel.

For me, it is a constant rather than a foundation. I understand it intimately as something I’ve lived. It’s not a book for me. It’s life.

I saw many things from the New Testament in the synagogue. That’s how I came to believe in Christ. The evidence was before my eyes. But there were other things I’d never grasp by reading. I needed to see them and experience it firsthand.

You can’t derive the fullness of a culture from a book. There’s nuances that are never written down. As for relevancy, it’s all important in my mind.

I don’t think of this in absolutes. There will be gradual shifts as I mature and as the seasons pass. I expect greater obedience and holiness from myself. Not less.

 

[ximmix]

I think people in the OT, were not sure whether human suffering was simply from natural causes or divine wrath. I think the Lord explains that natural or man made disaster is not usually the wrath of God ( Luke 13:1-9). Still our suffering is because of sin simply because we die (although individual guilt varies- Romans 5:12-14).

Ok, thanks for you answer. Do you mean that the old testament was written by people who sought divine reasons for natural events? And not written by God?

 

[ximmix]

I would not have come to faith in God and Christ without the Old Testament. I achieved both in a Jewish setting without hearing the gospel.

For me, it is a constant rather than a foundation. I understand it intimately as something I’ve lived. It’s not a book for me. It’s life.

I saw many things from the New Testament in the synagogue. That’s how I came to believe in Christ. The evidence was before my eyes. But there were other things I’d never grasp by reading. I needed to see them and experience it firsthand.

You can’t derive the fullness of a culture from a book. There’s nuances that are never written down. As for relevancy, it’s all important in my mind.

I don’t think of this in absolutes. There will be gradual shifts as I mature and as the seasons pass. I expect greater obedience and holiness from myself. Not less.

Thanks for your answer, but it's not really an answer to my question. How do you choose what parts of the old testament is relevant, and how do you discard the rest?

 

[bèlla]

Thanks for your answer, but it's not really an answer to my question. How do you choose what parts of the old testament is relevant, and how do you discard the rest?

I don’t discard anything or question its relevance. Everything matters.

Look at it from this perspective. Think of a movie. Your favorite. The one you’ve watched many times. The first go-round was nice. But I’m willing to bet there was a lot you didn’t pick up until the second. After a few iterations you get something more from the story that you didn’t have the first time. That holds true here as well.

We’re grasping the bible with the measure of understanding we possess. And hopefully, that isn’t stagnant. You can read the same passage one year later and get a morsel of wisdom that you never saw in the past.

I’m comfortable not understanding and not knowing because I realize its not forever. Over time I’ll grasp some things and remain clueless on others. This goes back to your root and the foundation your faith rests upon.

My anchor is found in Him and the evidence I’ve witnessed over the years. Not man’s interpretations of Him. They change. But He doesn’t.

 

[Radagast]

So my question is, why is the Old testament still in the Bible if it's not relevant still?

Oh, it's relevant. Among other things, it explains why it was necessary for Christ to come.

And, if it is still relevant, how do you choose what's relevant and what's not

The New Testament explains that, but it's too complex for this thread.

 

[ximmix]

The New Testament explains that, but it's too complex for this thread.

Ok, I thought this was the subforum to have such things explained...

 

[ximmix]

I don’t discard anything or question its relevance. Everything matters.

Look at it from this perspective. Think of a movie. Your favorite. The one you’ve watched many times. The first go-round was nice. But I’m willing to bet there was a lot you didn’t pick up until the second. After a few iterations you get something more from the story that you didn’t have the first time. That holds true here as well.

We’re grasping the bible with the measure of understanding we possess. And hopefully, that isn’t stagnant. You can read the same passage one year later and get a morsel of wisdom that you never saw in the past.

I’m comfortable not understanding and not knowing because I realize its not forever. Over time I’ll grasp some things and remain clueless on others. This goes back to your root and the foundation your faith rests upon.

My anchor is found in Him and the evidence I’ve witnessed over the years. Not man’s interpretations of Him. They change. But He doesn’t.

But surely there must be practices condoned or commanded in the Old Testament that you wouldn't want to see today?

 

[bèlla]

But surely there must be practices condoned or commanded in the Old Testament that you wouldn't want to see today?

Who am ‘I’ in relation to my Creator? What I want is immaterial. I’m not in control. He built this. For me, it’s a question of place. I know my role and I’m happy with it.

I’m not on His level. I don’t have His power and wisdom or understanding. I’ve got a sliver. He knows what He’s doing. I’m trying to figure it out.

It’s like the idiot who says they can do the same when watching a professional athlete. Now, he may have skills. But you’d put your money on pro for good reason.

I trust Him and the Old Testament isn’t a source of contention or disgust. Because really, it’s not about the book. Its about recognizing everything around you and realizing your smallness within it.

Whether its the trees, sky, water or mountains. Sometimes their beauty blinds you and you don’t know but wow is hard to contain. It’s so much bigger than you and I.

 

[ximmix]

Who am ‘I’ in relation to my Creator? What I want is immaterial. I’m not in control. He built this. For me, it’s a question of place. I know my role and I’m happy with it.

I’m not on His level. I don’t have His power and wisdom or understanding. I’ve got a sliver. He knows what He’s doing. I’m trying to figure it out.

It’s like the idiot who says they can do the same when watching a professional athlete. Now, he may have skills. But you’d put your money on pro for good reason.

I trust Him and the Old Testament isn’t a source of contention or disgust. Because really, it’s not about the book. Its about recognizing everything around you and realizing your smallness within it.

Whether its the trees, sky, water or mountains. Sometimes their beauty blinds you and you don’t know but wow is hard to contain. It’s so much bigger than you and I.

Ok I get it, you submit yourself to God, yet I'm sure you're not out there stoning people? Or should we be scared?

 

[Radagast]

Ok, I thought this was the subforum to have such things explained...

1. No, this is the subforum for bitter hostile debates. If you truly want something explained, try "Exploring Christianity."

2. The entire Old Testament is too much to discuss on a thread. You'd have to narrow the question down.

 

[ximmix]

1. No, this is the subforum for bitter hostile debates. If you truly want something explained, try "Exploring Christianity."

2. The entire Old Testament is too much to discuss on a thread. You'd have to narrow the question down.

Ok, I understand. Thanks.

 

[bèlla]

Ok I get it, you submit yourself to God, yet I'm sure you're not out there stoning people? Or should we be scared?

I’m more civilized than that. We evolve. We eat with our hands as babes until we learn to use a fork and spoon. That requires guidance. Otherwise, we’ll remain as we are.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

But surely there must be practices condoned or commanded in the Old Testament that you wouldn't want to see today?

To help in this regard, we may have to consider as to why the earliest Christians of the 1st century and perhaps the 2nd century, kind of like today, also didn't command that the Church adhere to a full, explicit application and ultra-literal response to the Old Testament ...

 

[ximmix]

I’m more civilized than that. We evolve. We eat with our hands as babes until we learn to use a fork and spoon. That requires guidance. Otherwise, we’ll remain as we are.

And again that is why I asked the question, I'm very happy that you are a woman of your time, but that means you discard a whole chunk of the Old Testament...

 

[ximmix]

To help in this regard, we may have to consider as to why the earliest Christians of the 1st century and perhaps the 2nd century, kind of like today, also didn't command that the Church adhere to a full, explicit application and ultra-literal response to the Old Testament ...

So Christians today can discard the whole Old Testament, or just parts of it? If only parts, why those parts?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So Christians today can discard the whole Old Testament, or just parts of it? If only parts, why those parts?

The problem here for everyone who is attempting to navigate the Bible is that the writers of the New Testament books didn't include a whole lot about 'HOW' early Christians attempted to discern (and sometimes debate) over the extent to how and what parts of the Old Testament still apply. However, in saying this, we should at the least take a look at all of the various fragments in the New Testament which seem to deal with the application of the Old Testament.

In other words, to try to begin to have at least some substantive insight, we'd have to be more wholistic in our study of this topic and not just read Matthew chapter 5 and stop there. I've already given one example several days ago when you first began this thread, and that example pertained to Paul. Remember that?

 

[ximmix]

I thought God was the author of the Old Testament. Why would He be so vague about things like that? Seems to me the Old Testament was written by people for those people at that time, and trying to fit that into our time is very difficult...

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I thought God was the author of the Old Testament. Why would He be so vague about things like that? Seems to me the Old Testament was written by people for those people at that time, and trying to fit that into our time is very difficult...

As to your first statement, I personally think we need to scrutinize what any of us thinks we mean when we might say "God is the author of the Old Testament." As a proponent of Philosophical Hermeneutics, I also think this phrasing is too easy and papers over a litany of interpretive and conceptual issues that doesn't really reflect the actual nature of biblical revelation. But, for the moment, that's separate tangent.

What we need to keep in mind is that if we look at the Epistemological Indices that dot the literary landscape, few as they may be, we see that God in some ways has purposely and intentionally kept some things about His plans ... 'vague.' So, that added epistemic dimension will complicate things for us when we try to figure this stuff out; in fact, we'll probably realize that none of us living in today's 21st century can fully work it all out, and we'll have to just concede the point and offer each other some latitude and graciousness when we listen to each other interpret what we think we've found in the bible and what we think it means.

Anyway, the fact that Paul the Apostle used Old Testament law, but did so with an application tempered with grace and mercy, should show us that this is not a simple, dichotomous situation where we can say that either the Old Testament still applies OR that it should be just thrown out altogether. No, it means we'll have to do the hard work of sifting through everything and doing our best to deal with what we think we understand in light of those things that we still don't understand and that may have been 'lost' to the past.

So, yes, you're right. Trying to fit this into our time is very difficult. But, we can see from the Gospels and the book of Acts that it was difficult for the early church as well.

 

[ximmix]

What we need to keep in mind is that if we look at the Epistemological Indices that dot the literary landscape, few as they may be, we see that God in some ways has purposely and intentionally kept some things about His plans ... 'vague.' So, that added epistemic dimension will complicate things for us when we try to figure this stuff out; in fact, we'll probably realize that none of us living in today's 21st century can fully work it all out, and we'll have to just concede the point and offer each other some latitude and graciousness when we listen to each other interpret what we think we've found in the bible and what we think it means.

God purposfully kept it vague? Is there any scripture supporting that?

Anyway, the fact that Paul the Apostle used Old Testament law, but did so with an application tempered with grace and mercy

That is the point of my OP...

 

[cvanwey]

The problem here for everyone who is attempting to navigate the Bible is that the writers of the New Testament books didn't include a whole lot about 'HOW' early Christians attempted to discern (and sometimes debate) over the extent to how and what parts of the Old Testament still apply. However, in saying this, we should at the least take a look at all of the various fragments in the New Testament which seem to deal with the application of the Old Testament.

In other words, to try to begin to have at least some substantive insight, we'd have to be more wholistic in our study of this topic and not just read Matthew chapter 5 and stop there. I've already given one example several days ago when you first began this thread, and that example pertained to Paul. Remember that?

But look what it says there:

Matthew 5:17-20 New International Version (NIV)
The Fulfillment of the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.