The Old Testament originally does not believe in the existence of the soul.

oikonomia · Aug 15, 2023

eleos1954 said:
The bible is the word of God ..... it's not a system .... there have always been systems that man has formed and teach different things.

Aren't you proposing a system in some of the things you layout systamatically below?

eleos1954 said:
The bible is about relationships (with God/with mankind) ... not systems.

Mankind gets things wrong throughout history .... that is one of the reasons why Jesus came to earth ... to get the truth out .... about who God really is

We cannot pick and choose only those attributes of who Jesus revealed God is, and create a system of error denying what we don't
want to know about God.

That is what you are doing.

eleos1954 said:
.... that is to correct false beliefs ... misinterpretation of scripture. Understanding that there is nothing immortal about us is important to be understood .... it protects us from going into false belief systems ... that then leads to other false beliefs ... ie the torture chamber of God "burning people" ..... good grief!! Terrible teaching.

If we were to assemble a world congress of rapists and ask them to decide on what the penalty for RAPE should be,
perhaps they would conclude there should be no penalty. Or perhaps they would all vote on a light penalty.

Men who refuse to be seperated from Satan through belief in Christ assume THEY can better know
what the penalty from God for that should be. They have a vested interest in making sure it is tolerable to them, IF a punishment at all.

Jesus among many other things, included a specific teaching on WHO we should fear when it comes to ultimate punishment.
Watch.

And I say to you My friends, Do not fear those who kill the body and afterward have nothing more that they can do.
But I will show you whom you should fear: fear Him who, after killing, has authority to cast into Gehenna;
yes, I tell you, fear this One. (Luke 12:4,5)

This is specific teaching out of the mouth of the Savior Christ informing us WHO we should FEAR and for WHY.
The reason is that unlike mankind His infliction of punishment can reach BEYOND what man can do.

Man can kill the body. There is reason for greater fear to be held in regards to God.
God can go beyond to reach you with punishment that man is incapable of.
However you wish to interpret Gehenna, it is not something anyone should want.

I hasten to add - After telling the world WHO is the one we should REALLY fear when it comes to judgment,
He says "FEAR NOT" - [do not be afraid] That is for those who trust in His care there is no reason for fear.

. . . yes, I tell you, fear this One.

Are not five sparrows sold for two assaria? And not one of them is forgotten before God.
But even the hairs of your head have all been numbered.
Do not be afraid; you are of more value than many sparrows. (vs. 5b,6,7)

Don't we have to take the whole council of God without preference if we want the whole truth?

eleos1954 said:
Talking with the dead?

Are you adding obvious unbiblical error WITH biblical truth that you don't like to discredit it?

eleos1954 said:
Praying for the dead?

Again, are you throwing out the baby with the bath-water?

eleos1954 said:
The dead know nothing.

There indeed were a few that have been taken to heaven ... but for the masses ... no .... they are dormant in the grave until the return of Jesus.

The one man in history who stands as an authority on death, having come back from it, doesn't teach this.
If He knew that the dead are non-existently unconscious He would be unrighteous to convey in a teaching
in Luke 16, that the rich man, Lazarus, and Abraham were conscious in death.

In no parable of Jesus were specific names mentioned - ie. Lazarus.

It would be unrighteous of Jesus to portray consciousness after dying if He knew good and well that that
was impossible. So it is better to take His authority on it.

And the beggar died, and he was carried away by the angels into Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham from afar and Lazarus in his bosom. (Luke 16:22,23)

eleos1954 said:
The Bible teaches death as sleep .... why? because all will be resurrected one day (all are in a temporal dormant state) ... one group (the first group will be resurrected to eternal life (existing for eternity)... the other group will die the 2nd death (non existence) for eternity.

If this non-existent sleep He knew about, He would have been lying, decptive, devious and unrighteous to teach as He did
in Luke 16 about the consciousness of Lazarus, Abraham, and the rich man.

eleos1954 said:
It's not difficult to understand ... and yes the bible teaches all who die earthly death are in a dormant condition until resurrections.

Jesus taught death was a "sleep" ... believe Him.

We don't disregard the bible .... we disregard false teachings/false interpretations of it.

It is hard for me to easily trust a Bible student who has no intepretations which he doesn't LIKE, but yet is compelled to believe.
I don't LIKE everything about Luke 16:19-31. But I am compelled to take the words of Jesus there at face value.

The very point of the teaching is not that those living may only look forward to unconscious non-existence in oblivion.
That is precisely the OPPOSITE of the intention of the lesson.

Verses 27-31 - And he said, Then I ask you, Father, to send him to the house of my father —
For I have five brothers — so that he may solemnly testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.

But Abraham said, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
But he said, No, Father Abraham; but if someone risen from the dead would go to them, they will repent.
But he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.

Rami77 · Aug 15, 2023

oikonomia said:
I don't read it the way you see it.

The entrance of the spirit, the breath of life from God, contacted the body and the result was
that man became a living soul. Two things came together and the result was "man became a living soul."

Other Old Testament passages portray the soul as something a person possesses.

And he stretched himself upon the child three times and cried to Jehovah and said, Jehovah, my God, I beg You, let this child’s soul come into him again! (1 Kings 17:21)

The immaterial part of Samuel God allowed to come up from the realm of the dead. Five times this deceased person was called "Samuel."
(1 Sam. 28). And this was after Samuel had died and been buried (1 Sam. 25:1).

If Samuel's physical body had been buried yet he came up from Sheol, that must have been his immaterial part.
The soul is the best explanation. Perhaps the soul and the spirit of Samuel is the explanation.

But as the revelation of God's full salvation is progressively revealed, simultaneously the fuller revelation of the nature of man
is also unveiled. So I do not expect the Old Testament to be a clear on "spirit and soul and body" (1 Thess. 5:23) as the New Testament is.
Nothing as clear as many passages from the mouth of Jesus and the apostles occurs in the OT.

That is to be understood as many things were not made so completely known in the OT
yet were revealed to the new covenant apostles and prophets.

The mystery which has been hidden from the ages and from the generations but now has been manifested to His saints; (Col. 1:26)

you can perceive my understanding in the mystery of Christ,
Which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men,
as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets . . . (Eph. 3:4b,5)

. . . my gospel, that is, the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which has been kept in silence in the times of the ages (Rom. 16:25b)

He said that you and me made of dust. Period. We can't guess that the breath is the soul after what has been said. I believe we are souls. What I'm saying is that there is a point of the OT history when it doesn't recognize the existence of the soul or the afterlife.

Rami77 · Aug 15, 2023

Maria Billingsley said:
God breathed His Holy Spirit into them. This is the breath of life. Then it was taken away by sin when they were deceived and fell from grace. They were formed with a soul, intellect, then God breathed His Spirit into them. This is the connection between man and God which was severed by sin then ultimately returned through our Savior, Jesus Christ of Nazareth if one believes.
Blessings

Thank you for the participation.

Rami77 · Aug 15, 2023

Adventist Heretic said:
What is present is the body, the spirit, and the soul. In that text. All three elements are present. The text says the dirt became something else other than what it was. It's not just dirt anymore. It was something new.

He didn't say the body was made of dust. He said Man was formed of dust. Adam was already a man before the breath. Then what did the breath do? It animated him. I believe we are souls, but whoever wrote those words didn't.

friend of · Aug 15, 2023

Rami77 said:
He didn't say the body was made of dust. He said Man was formed of dust. Adam was already a man before the breath. Then what did the breath do? It animated him. I believe we are souls, but whoever wrote those words didn't.

You have to keep in mind though that when God first breathed life into Adam there was no death and sin. So the body was an immortal soul in the first place. That all changed when sin entered the picture. Now it is still said that we have a soul, but we also have a body of flesh too that can die. We are not just pure soul. Does that make any sense?

Rami77 · Aug 15, 2023

oikonomia said:
But Jesus said Scripture cannot be broken. So if you only believe what comes from His mouth,
you should believe what He said about the Hebrew Bible.

John 10:35c - and the Scripture cannot be broken,

If you believe what came from the mouth of Jesus then you should realize He taught the OT testified of Him.

After His resurrection from the dead His mouth uttered this about the OT scriptures.

And He said to them, O foolish and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and enter into His glory?

And beginning from Moses and from all the prophets,
He explained to them clearly in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself. (Luke 24:25-27)

And again -

And He said to them, These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all the things written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and Psalms concerning Me must be fulfilled.

Then He opened their mind to understand the Scriptures;
And He said to them, Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise up from the dead on the third day . . . (Luke 24:44-46)

No we don't.
We need to see everything including the OT Scriptures through the eyes of the Son of God.

I think if you continue to read the New Testament eventually your heart will be opened to ALL of the word of God.
This does not have to mean pouring new wine into old wineskins or patching an old garment with unshrunk cloth.

Believing what Jesus certainly believed is not necessarily commiting the error He spoke of above.

oikonomia said:
But Jesus said Scripture cannot be broken. So if you only believe what comes from His mouth,
you should believe what He said about the Hebrew Bible.

Jesus stated a fact. And the scriptures are still with us today. He didn't come to abolish the law. He came to give us another choice. It's up to us to choose. He was saying, the law will always be available for us if we want it. But it is a bad choice. The good choice for us is to abandon OT.

Another point is that the OT didn't come from God to be abolished by God. Add to that, Jesus was very cautious when talking about the scriptures in front of the Jews.

Rami77 · Aug 16, 2023

oikonomia said:
But Jesus said Scripture cannot be broken. So if you only believe what comes from His mouth,
you should believe what He said about the Hebrew Bible.

John 10:35c - and the Scripture cannot be broken,

If you believe what came from the mouth of Jesus then you should realize He taught the OT testified of Him.

After His resurrection from the dead His mouth uttered this about the OT scriptures.

And He said to them, O foolish and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and enter into His glory?

And beginning from Moses and from all the prophets,
He explained to them clearly in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself. (Luke 24:25-27)

And again -

And He said to them, These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all the things written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and Psalms concerning Me must be fulfilled.

Then He opened their mind to understand the Scriptures;
And He said to them, Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise up from the dead on the third day . . . (Luke 24:44-46)

No we don't.
We need to see everything including the OT Scriptures through the eyes of the Son of God.

I think if you continue to read the New Testament eventually your heart will be opened to ALL of the word of God.
This does not have to mean pouring new wine into old wineskins or patching an old garment with unshrunk cloth.

Believing what Jesus certainly believed is not necessarily commiting the error He spoke of above.

oikonomia said:
If you believe what came from the mouth of Jesus then you should realize He taught the OT testified of Him.

Luke wasn't a witness.

Rami77 · Aug 16, 2023

oikonomia said:
But Jesus said Scripture cannot be broken. So if you only believe what comes from His mouth,
you should believe what He said about the Hebrew Bible.

John 10:35c - and the Scripture cannot be broken,

If you believe what came from the mouth of Jesus then you should realize He taught the OT testified of Him.

After His resurrection from the dead His mouth uttered this about the OT scriptures.

And He said to them, O foolish and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and enter into His glory?

And beginning from Moses and from all the prophets,
He explained to them clearly in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself. (Luke 24:25-27)

And again -

And He said to them, These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all the things written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and Psalms concerning Me must be fulfilled.

Then He opened their mind to understand the Scriptures;
And He said to them, Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise up from the dead on the third day . . . (Luke 24:44-46)

No we don't.
We need to see everything including the OT Scriptures through the eyes of the Son of God.

I think if you continue to read the New Testament eventually your heart will be opened to ALL of the word of God.
This does not have to mean pouring new wine into old wineskins or patching an old garment with unshrunk cloth.

Believing what Jesus certainly believed is not necessarily commiting the error He spoke of above.

If you want to understand Jesus' words you need to understand Jesus himself first. I mean it; unless you understand Jesus you won't get him.

Rami77 · Aug 16, 2023

friend of said:
@Rami77

Jesus is King of Kings sir. How do you not know this?

I don't believe that. I won't degrade Jesus to a king or a king of kings.

Rami77 · Aug 16, 2023

friend of said:
You have to keep in mind though that when God first breathed life into Adam there was no death and sin. So the body was an immortal soul in the first place. That all changed when sin entered the picture. Now it is still said that we have a soul, but we also have a body of flesh too that can die. We are not just pure soul. Does that make any sense?

Thank you for your participation.

Rami77 · Aug 16, 2023

ViaCrucis said:
So you don't believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of David?

So when Jesus says to His disciples, "Who do you say that I am?" and Peter answers, "You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God" Jesus should have said, "Sorry Simon son of Jonah, you're only half right".

-CryptoLutheran

Jesus never said I am the Messiah. He was asked directly by John the Baptist and by Pilatus if he was that king, and he avoided answering their questions.

honey badger · Aug 16, 2023

oikonomia said:
But God was referred to as Father in the OT.
Though since the resurrection of Christ, Father takes on a deeper meaning as not just Creator
but begetting divine life imparting Father.

Here are some OT passages saying Yahweh or Jehovah was the Father of Israel.

For You are our Father, / Since Abraham does not know us, / And Israel does not acknowledge us. / You, Jehovah, are our Father; / Our Redeemer from eternity is Your name. (Isa. 63:16)

But now, Jehovah, You are our Father; / We are the clay; and You, our Potter; / And all of us are the work of Your hand. (Isa. 64:8)

A son honors his father, and a servant his lord. Therefore if I am a Father, where is My honor? (Mal. 1:6)

Adam, the first created man is called "son of God" indicating he came directly from God's creating hand his "Father."
The son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God. (Luke 3:38)

and yet the prophets of the OT did not believed themselves to be His Son as Jesus did ...

Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider to be equal with God something to be grasped,

Adventist Heretic · Aug 16, 2023

Rami77 said:
He didn't say the body was made of dust.

yes he did

Rami77 said:
He said Man was formed of dust

what is the difference, you are not making any sense.

Rami77 said:
. Adam was already a man before the breath.

no he was not. that was the point of the breath. he needed to become alive.

Rami77 said:
Then what did the breath do? It animated him. I believe we are souls, but whoever wrote those words didn't.

oikonomia · Aug 16, 2023

Rami77 said:
Jesus stated a fact. And the scriptures are still with us today. He didn't come to abolish the law. He came to give us another choice. It's up to us to choose. He was saying, the law will always be available for us if we want it. But it is a bad choice. The good choice for us is to abandon OT.

Another point is that the OT didn't come from God to be abolished by God. Add to that, Jesus was very cautious when talking about the scriptures in front of the Jews.

I think if you love the Lord Jesus and the New Testament, eventually you will have a change about
the Hebrew Bible ("Old Testament").

You will find it nourishing, feeding to your spiritual taste, even Leviticus, even Numbers, even Lamentations.
I think if you grow in love for Christ the day will come when the 39 books of the Old Testament will be so precious to you.

God and His salvation is exceedingly profound. Genesis was not immediately followed by the Gospel of Luke.
That would not make sense. God's hatred for sin for one had to be firmly established to us in order for us to
comprehend His saving love in Jesus Christ. It is the SAME God. It is not some DIFFERENT God.

Exodus could not be immediately followed by the Gospel of John. Nor could Leviticus be immediately followed by
the Gospel of Mark or the book of Acts. God unfolded His profound eternal purpose
progressively over centuries.

The only Scripture available to Jews at Christ's earthly ministry time was the Hebrew Bible.
About the Hebrew Bible Jesus said and quoted to the Devil -

. . . It is written, “Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out through the mouth of God.” (Matt. 4:4 comp Deut. 8:3)

Rami77 · Aug 16, 2023

oikonomia said:
I think if you love the Lord Jesus and the New Testament, eventually you will have a change about
the Hebrew Bible ("Old Testament").

You will find it nourishing, feeding to your spiritual taste, even Leviticus, even Numbers, even Lamentations.
I think if you grow in love for Christ the day will come when the 39 books of the Old Testament will be so precious to you.

God and His salvation is exceedingly profound. Genesis was not immediately followed by the Gospel of Luke.
That would not make sense. God's hatred for sin for one had to be firmly established to us in order for us to
comprehend His saving love in Jesus Christ. It is the SAME God. It is not some DIFFERENT God.

Exodus could not be immediately followed by the Gospel of John. Nor could Leviticus be immediately followed by
the Gospel of Mark or the book of Acts. God unfolded His profound eternal purpose
progressively over centuries.

The only Scripture available to Jews at Christ's earthly ministry time was the Hebrew Bible.
About the Hebrew Bible Jesus said and quoted to the Devil -

. . . It is written, “Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out through the mouth of God.” (Matt. 4:4 comp Deut. 8:3)

My main browser is banned. I'm not sure why. I'll stop replying until I know what's going on.

d taylor · Aug 16, 2023

Rami77 said:
"
Then the LORD God formed man of
dust from the ground, and breathed into
his nostrils the breath of life; and man
became a living being.
" (Genesis, 2:7)
It is clear from the verse above that the OT does not consider the existence of the Man's soul. The man was already formed before God breathed into his nostrils. The breath is not a soul; it was what animated the Man, like the washing machine animated by electricity, or like the Frankenstein monster animated by lightning. That explains why Judaism Originally does not believe in the afterlife.

Then why do Christians insist on holding on to such a book?

-

The soul is like a persons personality, what God gave and breathed into Adam was God's Spirit of Life. And the Life of God is what enables people to spend eternity with God. The soul is not eternal life

oikonomia · Aug 16, 2023

honey badger said:
and yet the prophets of the OT did not believed themselves to be His Son as Jesus did ...

Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider to be equal with God something to be grasped,

I agree with you.
A "son of God" or "sons of God" in the Old Testament does not encompass "the Son of God" or "sons of God" in all
its New Testament meaning.

The Gospel writer that brings this out the clearest is probably John.

Before Christ's death and resurrection the most intimate term He used for His disciples was "friends."
But after He rose from the dead He told Mary to go tell His "brothers".

Before resurrection: No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all the things which I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. (John 15:15)

After resurrection: Jesus said to her, Do not touch Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brothers and say to them, I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God. (John 20:17)

Peter writes that the Christians have been begotten through the resurrection of Christ from the dead.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. (1 Pet. 1:3)

oikonomia · Aug 16, 2023

Rami77 said:
My main browser is banned. I'm not sure why. I'll stop replying until I know what's going on.
View attachment 334649

Try hitting the REFRESH botton.
Also check that you do not have mulitple sessions opened to the Forum.

honey badger · Aug 16, 2023

oikonomia said:
I agree with you.
A "son of God" or "sons of God" in the Old Testament does not encompass "the Son of God" or "sons of God" in all
its New Testament meaning.

The Gospel writer that brings this out the clearest is probably John.

Before Christ's death and resurrection the most intimate term He used for His disciples was "friends."
But after He rose from the dead He told Mary to go tell His "brothers".

Before resurrection: No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all the things which I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. (John 15:15)

After resurrection: Jesus said to her, Do not touch Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brothers and say to them, I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God. (John 20:17)

Peter writes that the Christians have been born again through the resurrection of Christ from the dead.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (1 Pet. 1:3)

yes ... we do not come to God by steps ... it is God Who reveals Himself in us as us, as He did in our brother who we follow 2 days/2000 years/2000 cubits behind ....

Rami77 · Aug 16, 2023

oikonomia said:
Try hitting the REFRESH botton.

It's OK now. It could be an error.

The Old Testament originally does not believe in the existence of the soul.

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