The Old Testament originally does not believe in the existence of the soul.

[honey badger]

It wen

I apologize; it went over my head.

to hold to any truth is to turn it into a big fat idol with brittle feet ...

 

[Rami77]

It might be helpful to read the book: The Jewish Gospels by Daniel Boyarin. Mr Boyarin is an interesting scholar and Jewish believer. He clearly has an expansive understanding of his Jewish faith in that he considers Christianity a valid sect of Judaism and yet is not a Christian. The God of Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob is God as testified to in the whole Bible ( for ex. Isaiah 48:12-16 compare to John 1:1, John 14:26, John 15:26).

Amazon.com

Thank you for the references.

 

[Rami77]

to hold to any truth is to turn it into a big fat idol with brittle feet ...

Thank you for the explanation.

 

[eleos1954]

"
Then the LORD God formed man of
dust from the ground, and breathed into
his nostrils the breath of life; and man
became a living being.
" (Genesis, 2:7)
It is clear from the verse above that the OT does not consider the existence of the Man's soul. The man was already formed before God breathed into his nostrils. The breath is not a soul; it was what animated the Man, like the washing machine animated by electricity, or like the Frankenstein monster animated by lightning. That explains why Judaism Originally does not believe in the afterlife.

Then why do Christians insist on holding on to such a book?

The Pharisees and Essenes believed in the immortality of the soul, but the Sadducees did not.

The bible is the word of God ..... it's not a system .... there have always been systems that man has formed and teach different things.

The bible is about relationships (with God/with mankind) ... not systems.

Mankind gets things wrong throughout history .... that is one of the reasons why Jesus came to earth ... to get the truth out .... about who God really is .... that is to correct false beliefs ... misinterpretation of scripture. Understanding that there is nothing immortal about us is important to be understood .... it protects us from going into false belief systems ... that then leads to other false beliefs ... ie the torture chamber of God "burning people" ..... good grief!! Terrible teaching. Talking with the dead? Praying for the dead? The dead know nothing.

There indeed were a few that have been taken to heaven ... but for the masses ... no .... they are dormant in the grave until the return of Jesus.

HIs word is clear .... all are subject to death .... 2 deaths .... the first (earthly death) is temporal for all, the 2nd death is for eternity.

The Bible teaches death as sleep .... why? because all will be resurrected one day (all are in a temporal dormant state) ... one group (the first group will be resurrected to eternal life (existing for eternity)... the other group will die the 2nd death (non existence) for eternity.

It's not difficult to understand ... and yes the bible teaches all who die earthly death are in a dormant condition until resurrections.

Jesus taught death was a "sleep" ... believe Him.

We don't disregard the bible .... we disregard false teachings/false interpretations of it.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Jesus has nothing to do with the OT god.

Jesus is the OT God. There's no such thing as OT God and NT God. He is the same, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life,[a] and the life was the light of men.

Few on many examples of the trinity in OT

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man[h] in our image, after our likeness.

Psalm 45:7 Therefore God, your God, has anointed you

Psalm 110:1
The Lord says to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”

Zechariah 3:2 And the Lord said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you, O Satan!

It is a great mistake to ignore the OT, as the Bible is one book. Could we even believe Jesus is who He claim HE is without OT? I do not think so.

 

[Rami77]

Jesus is the OT God. There's no such thing as OT God and NT God. He is the same, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life,[a] and the life was the light of men.

Few on many examples of the trinity in OT

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man[h] in our image, after our likeness.

Psalm 45:7 Therefore God, your God, has anointed you

Psalm 110:1
The Lord says to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”

Zechariah 3:2 And the Lord said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you, O Satan!

It is a great mistake to ignore the OT, as the Bible is one book. Could we even believe Jesus is who He claim HE is without OT? I do not think so.

Thank you for your participation.

 

[Rami77]

The Pharisees and Essenes believed in the immortality of the soul, but the Sadducees did not.

The bible is the word of God ..... it's not a system .... there have always been systems that man has formed and teach different things.

The bible is about relationships (with God/with mankind) ... not systems.

Mankind gets things wrong throughout history .... that is one of the reasons why Jesus came to earth ... to get the truth out .... about who God really is .... that is to correct false beliefs ... misinterpretation of scripture. Understanding that there is nothing immortal about us is important to be understood .... it protects us from going into false belief systems ... that then leads to other false beliefs ... ie the torture chamber of God "burning people" ..... good grief!! Terrible teaching. Talking with the dead? Praying for the dead? The dead know nothing.

There indeed were a few that have been taken to heaven ... but for the masses ... no .... they are dormant in the grave until the return of Jesus.

HIs word is clear .... all are subject to death .... 2 deaths .... the first (earthly death) is temporal for all, the 2nd death is for eternity.

The Bible teaches death as sleep .... why? because all will be resurrected one day (all are in a temporal dormant state) ... one group (the first group will be resurrected to eternal life (existing for eternity)... the other group will die the 2nd death (non existence) for eternity.

It's not difficult to understand ... and yes the bible teaches all who die earthly death are in a dormant condition until resurrections.

Jesus taught death was a "sleep" ... believe Him.

We don't disregard the bible .... we disregard false teachings/false interpretations of it.

I believe in the afterlife. I believe every word came out of the mouth of Jesus, our God.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Thank you for your participation.

I see you are worried that OT has changed too much over time, and that lot has been added and taken away. It is good to be worried about those things, but you can do some research on this. I recommend the dead sea scrolls for example that date more than 2,000 years and yet they match the modern Bibles very accurately. Also we can argue that NT was written 2,000 years ago, the books of Moses about 3,400 years ago so why worry about one and not the other?

Furthermore, God is in control of everything, and He has a perfect control over the Scriptures. God gave us the Bible, including OT, so we get to know Him and His will for us. Can God allow bits to be removed and added? Sure. Why? Well who am I to question Him, He does what He wants according to His wisdom, but because God wants us to know Him intimately, I believe the Bible, including the OT is almost 100% accurate.

Why do you believe OT has changed a lot?

 

[Rami77]

You believe that Jesus is a king (Messiah) and that OT testifies to that belief. I don't have that problem. I believe that Jesus is the Son of God and God in the flesh, but I don't believe he is a king.

 

[oikonomia]

"
Then the LORD God formed man of
dust from the ground, and breathed into
his nostrils the breath of life; and man
became a living being.
" (Genesis, 2:7)
It is clear from the verse above that the OT does not consider the existence of the Man's soul. The man was already formed before God breathed into his nostrils. The breath is not a soul; it was what animated the Man, like the washing machine animated by electricity, or like the Frankenstein monster animated by lightning. That explains why Judaism Originally does not believe in the afterlife.

Then why do Christians insist on holding on to such a book?

I don't read it the way you see it.

The entrance of the spirit, the breath of life from God, contacted the body and the result was
that man became a living soul. Two things came together and the result was "man became a living soul."

Other Old Testament passages portray the soul as something a person possesses.

And he stretched himself upon the child three times and cried to Jehovah and said, Jehovah, my God, I beg You, let this child’s soul come into him again! (1 Kings 17:21)

The immaterial part of Samuel God allowed to come up from the realm of the dead. Five times this deceased person was called "Samuel."
(1 Sam. 28). And this was after Samuel had died and been buried (1 Sam. 25:1).

If Samuel's physical body had been buried yet he came up from Sheol, that must have been his immaterial part.
The soul is the best explanation. Perhaps the soul and the spirit of Samuel is the explanation.

But as the revelation of God's full salvation is progressively revealed, simultaneously the fuller revelation of the nature of man
is also unveiled. So I do not expect the Old Testament to be a clear on "spirit and soul and body" (1 Thess. 5:23) as the New Testament is.
Nothing as clear as many passages from the mouth of Jesus and the apostles occurs in the OT.

That is to be understood as many things were not made so completely known in the OT
yet were revealed to the new covenant apostles and prophets.

The mystery which has been hidden from the ages and from the generations but now has been manifested to His saints; (Col. 1:26)

you can perceive my understanding in the mystery of Christ,
Which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men,
as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets . . . (Eph. 3:4b,5)

. . . my gospel, that is, the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which has been kept in silence in the times of the ages (Rom. 16:25b)

 

[Maria Billingsley]

"
Then the LORD God formed man of
dust from the ground, and breathed into
his nostrils the breath of life; and man
became a living being.
" (Genesis, 2:7)
It is clear from the verse above that the OT does not consider the existence of the Man's soul. The man was already formed before God breathed into his nostrils. The breath is not a soul; it was what animated the Man, like the washing machine animated by electricity, or like the Frankenstein monster animated by lightning. That explains why Judaism Originally does not believe in the afterlife.

Then why do Christians insist on holding on to such a book?

God breathed His Holy Spirit into them. This is the breath of life. Then it was taken away by sin when they were deceived and fell from grace. They were formed with a soul, intellect, then God breathed His Spirit into them. This is the connection between man and God which was severed by sin then ultimately returned through our Savior, Jesus Christ of Nazareth if one believes.
Blessings

 

[oikonomia]

the god of the old testament is not our Father, but mans perception of Him ... or as Jesus put it "All who came before Me were thieves and robbers,"

none the less the old testament is as inspired by Him as the new ...

But God was referred to as Father in the OT.
Though since the resurrection of Christ, Father takes on a deeper meaning as not just Creator
but begetting divine life imparting Father.

Here are some OT passages saying Yahweh or Jehovah was the Father of Israel.

For You are our Father, / Since Abraham does not know us, / And Israel does not acknowledge us. / You, Jehovah, are our Father; / Our Redeemer from eternity is Your name. (Isa. 63:16)

But now, Jehovah, You are our Father; / We are the clay; and You, our Potter; / And all of us are the work of Your hand. (Isa. 64:8)

A son honors his father, and a servant his lord. Therefore if I am a Father, where is My honor? (Mal. 1:6)

Adam, the first created man is called "son of God" indicating he came directly from God's creating hand his "Father."
The son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God. (Luke 3:38)

 

[Adventist Heretic]

"
Then the LORD God formed man of
dust from the ground, and breathed into
his nostrils the breath of life; and man
became a living being.
" (Genesis, 2:7)
It is clear from the verse above that the OT does not consider the existence of the Man's soul. The man was already formed before God breathed into his nostrils. The breath is not a soul; it was what animated the Man, like the washing machine animated by electricity, or like the Frankenstein monster animated by lightning. That explains why Judaism Originally does not believe in the afterlife.

Then why do Christians insist on holding on to such a book?

What is present is the body, the spirit, and the soul. In that text. All three elements are present. The text says the dirt became something else other than what it was. It's not just dirt anymore. It was something new.

 

[oikonomia]

I don't read it the way you see it.

The entrance of the spirit, the breath of life from God, contacted the body and the result was
that man became a living soul. Two things came together and the result was "man became a living soul."

Other Old Testament passages portray the soul as something a person possesses.

And he stretched himself upon the child three times and cried to Jehovah and said, Jehovah, my God, I beg You, let this child’s soul come into him again! (1 Kings 17:21)

The immaterial part of Samuel God allowed to come up from the realm of the dead. Five times this deceased person was called "Samuel."
(1 Sam. 28). And this was after Samuel had died and been buried (1 Sam. 25:1).

If Samuel's physical body had been buried yet he came up from Sheol, that must have been his immaterial part.
The soul is the best explanation. Perhaps the soul and the spirit of Samuel is the explanation.

But as the revelation of God's full salvation is progressively revealed, simultaneously the fuller revelation of the nature of man
is also unveiled. So I do not expect the Old Testament to be a clear on "spirit and soul and body" (1 Thess. 5:23) as the New Testament is.
Nothing as clear as many passages from the mouth of Jesus and the apostles occurs in the OT.

That is to be understood as many things were not made so completely known in the OT
yet were revealed to the new covenant apostles and prophets.

The mystery which has been hidden from the ages and from the generations but now has been manifested to His saints; (Col. 1:26)

you can perceive my understanding in the mystery of Christ,
Which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men,
as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets . . . (Eph. 3:4b,5)

. . . my gospel, that is, the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which has been kept in silence in the times of the ages (Rom. 16:25b)

 

[Adventist Heretic]

1 Kings 17:21. Good one .

 

[Adventist Heretic]

But God was referred to as Father in the OT.
Though since the resurrection of Christ, Father takes on a deeper meaning as not just Creator
but begetting divine life imparting Father.

Here are some OT passages saying Yahweh or Jehovah was the Father of Israel.

For You are our Father, / Since Abraham does not know us, / And Israel does not acknowledge us. / You, Jehovah, are our Father; / Our Redeemer from eternity is Your name. (Isa. 63:16)

But now, Jehovah, You are our Father; / We are the clay; and You, our Potter; / And all of us are the work of Your hand. (Isa. 64:8)

A son honors his father, and a servant his lord. Therefore if I am a Father, where is My honor? (Mal. 1:6)

Adam, the first created man is called "son of God" indicating he came directly from God's creating hand his "Father."
The son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God. (Luke 3:38)

You are the first person other than myself that I've ever seen say that

 

[oikonomia]

I believe that OT was written over a long period of time. During that period they added things; removed things; and they changed things. I don't believe OT is the word of God. The only words of God were those that came out of the mouth of Jesus in the Gospels.

But Jesus said Scripture cannot be broken. So if you only believe what comes from His mouth,
you should believe what He said about the Hebrew Bible.

John 10:35c - and the Scripture cannot be broken,

Jesus has nothing to do with the OT god.

If you believe what came from the mouth of Jesus then you should realize He taught the OT testified of Him.

After His resurrection from the dead His mouth uttered this about the OT scriptures.

And He said to them, O foolish and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and enter into His glory?

And beginning from Moses and from all the prophets,
He explained to them clearly in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself. (Luke 24:25-27)

And again -

And He said to them, These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all the things written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and Psalms concerning Me must be fulfilled.

Then He opened their mind to understand the Scriptures;
And He said to them, Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise up from the dead on the third day . . . (Luke 24:44-46)

We need to get rid of the old (OT.)

No we don't.
We need to see everything including the OT Scriptures through the eyes of the Son of God.

But no one puts a patch of unshrunk
cloth on an old garment; for the patch
pulls away from the garment, and a
worse tear results.
" (Matthew, 9:16)

I think if you continue to read the New Testament eventually your heart will be opened to ALL of the word of God.
This does not have to mean pouring new wine into old wineskins or patching an old garment with unshrunk cloth.

Believing what Jesus certainly believed is not necessarily commiting the error He spoke of above.

 

[oikonomia]

I love this verse. I believe in this verse to the letters.

You are wrongly seizing upon some words of Jesus to push your own dislike for many righteous OT people.

Concerning Jesus saying ones who came before Him were theives and robbers,
It is inconceivable that He meant patriarchs like -
Noah, Abraham, Samuel, Joseph, Daniel, even David, Deborah, Joshua,
Esther, Ruth, or Solomon, Nehemiah, Ezra, or a number of noteworthy kings of Judah.

This does not mean they were as He was - sinless.
But He spoke of Himself as the greater Jonah, the greater Solomon.

They were great in His mind. But the Son of God comes to be "more than" or greater.

. . . because they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something more than Jonah is here. (Matt. 12:41)
. . . and behold, something more than Solomon is here. (v.42)

He also said that John the Baptist, who certainly came before Him, was the greatest of all men born up to that time.

I say to you, Among those born of women there is no one greater than John, (John 7:28a)

Also Elijah and Moses appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration to converse with Christ.
So they could not have been dismissed by Christ as having NOTHING worthy in them towards God.

 

[ViaCrucis]

You believe that Jesus is a king (Messiah) and that OT testifies to that belief. I don't have that problem. I believe that Jesus is the Son of God and God in the flesh, but I don't believe he is a king.

So you don't believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of David?

So when Jesus says to His disciples, "Who do you say that I am?" and Peter answers, "You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God" Jesus should have said, "Sorry Simon son of Jonah, you're only half right".

-CryptoLutheran

 

[friend of]

@Rami77

Jesus is King of Kings sir. How do you not know this?