The office of the priest

[E.C.]

Thanks for the addition info!

You're welcome

As OrthodoxyUSA's cite from Titus makes clear, the episkopoi, the local overseers set up by the apostles, ordained presbyterioi whose job it was to lead in the assembly (ecclesia), to preach and teach, to lead the prayers and the breaking of bread in thanksgiving (eucharistos). Key word is lead -- this was termed the laitourgia, the "work of the people" who joined with them in prayers and thanksgiving.

That is quite true.

In the Divine Liturgy we have many litanies giving thanks to God for all things.

But a Methodist or Nazarene elder, a Lutheran pastor, or an Anglican, Catholic, or Orthodox priest are occupying precisely the same job -- the one defined by presbyterios in Scripture.

I have to disagree here.

An Orthodox priest is to lead the people in his church. He is to hear their confessions and is accountable for them and many other things.

Accountability. Now that is what separates an Orthodox priest from, say, (to pick on the Nazarenes a bit) a Nazarene elder. An Orthodox priest hears the confessions of his flock within the parish church. They do not confess to him, but they confess to God and the priest hears their confession. At the beginning of confession their is a prayer that is said. I can not recall it word for word, but it is to the effect of "You are confessing to God. I the priest am here just to be a witness. Withhold nothing because doing so would be a greater sin". Thus, the priest is just a witness to the confession.
This is very important to stress because the priest is accountable for the spiritual health of those in his church. On the last day, he will be held accountable for those souls that were under his care because he is a leader. There have been some occassional priests who have not done their job well and thus the result is a loss of faith. Those priests shall be held accountable by God, they truly shall.

That is not so in the Protestant way of life.

Already have as indicated in the tail of my quote.
i'll not be institutionalized like the rest of you.
I'll walk in HIS way note Pope whoevers!

We have a pope? What's a pope?

 

[Polycarp1]

Judge for yourself, you must.

Forgive me...

Yoda-speak, it is catching!!

 

[Polycarp1]

To answer with the Anglican position, we do not as a rule define in detail what we mean by a term, but let our liturgies convey our theology. Therefore, here is the Rite One (traditional) Prayer of Consecration from the Holy Eucharist, with the references to sacrifice bolded:

All glory be to thee, Almighty God, our heavenly Father, for that thou, of thy tender mercy, didst give thine only Son Jesus Christ to suffer death upon the cross for our redemption; who made there, by his one oblation of himself once offered, a full, perfect, and sufficient sacrifice, oblation, and satisfaction, for the sins of the whole world; and did institute, and in his holy Gospel command us to continue, a perpetual memory of that his precious death and sacrifice, until his coming again.

For in the night in which he was betrayed, he took bread; and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take, eat, this is my Body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me."

Likewise, after supper, he took the cup; and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, "Drink ye all of this, for this is my Blood of the New Testament, which is shed for you, and for many, for the remission of sins. Do this, as oft as ye shall drink it, in remembrance of me."

Wherefore, O Lord and heavenly Father, according to the institution of thy dearly beloved Son our Savior Jesus Christ, we, thy humble servants, do celebrate and make here before thy divine Majesty, with these thy holy gifts, which we now offer unto thee, the memorial thy Son hath commanded us to make; having in remembrance his blessed passion and precious death, his mighty resurrection and glorious ascension; rendering unto thee most hearty thanks for the innumerable benefits procured unto us by the same.

And we most humbly beseech thee, O merciful Father, to hear us; and, of thy almighty goodness, vouchsafe to bless and sanctify, with thy Word and Holy Spirit, these thy gifts and creatures of bread and wine; that we, receiving them according to thy Son our Savior Jesus Christ's holy institution, in remembrance of his death and passion, may be partakers of his most blessed Body and Blood.

And we earnestly desire thy fatherly goodness mercifully to accept this our sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving; most humbly beseeching thee to grant that, by the merits and death of thy Son Jesus Christ, and through faith in his blood, we, and all thy whole Church, may obtain remission of our sins, and all other benefits of his passion.

And here we offer and present unto thee, O Lord, our selves, our souls and bodies, to be a reasonable, holy, and living sacrifice unto thee; humbly beseeching thee that we, and all others who shall be partakers of this Holy Communion, may worthily receive the most precious Body and Blood of thy Son Jesus Christ, be filled with thy grace and heavenly benediction, and made one body with him, that he may dwell in us, and we in him.

And although we are unworthy, through our manifold sins, to offer unto thee any sacrifice, yet we beseech thee to accept this our bounden duty and service, not weighing our merits, but pardoning our offences, through Jesus Christ our Lord;

By whom, and with whom, in the unity of the Holy Ghost, all honor and glory be unto thee, O Father Almighty, world without end. AMEN.

One sacrifice. Completed, on the Cross. Participated in through His holy meal, instituted by Him.

 

[Rebekah30]

i'd disagree dear sis, Jesus the Christ was quite clear in His admonishing.

You have the right to disagree. Jesus was specific in what he said, Call no man father. We see Paul calling himself father.

Unless..........the title Father is forbidden, but referring oneself as a father (father figure, or spirtual father) is a different thing.
I will revisit that.

 

[simonthezealot]

You have the right to disagree. Jesus was specific in what he said, Call no man father. We see Paul calling himself father.

Unless..........the title Father is forbidden, but referring oneself as a father (father figure, or spirtual father) is a different thing.
I will revisit that.

It is a title issue, read in context you will see that clearly. I agree people can disagree but keep in mind there is only ONE truth.
We should certainly be inclined to lean on the truth of scripture first and foremost.

 

[simonthezealot]

We don't have a Papacy Simon.

Forgive me...

whose the shenouda character..No disrespect intended.

 

[Rebekah30]

It is a title issue, read in context you will see that clearly. I agree people can disagree but keep in mind there is only ONE truth.
We should certainly be inclined to lean on the truth of scripture first and foremost.

Thanks Simon.
Even though I have been out of the catholic church for a quite a while, I had a lifetime of being fed things that I still need to go over.

 

[Polycarp1]

whose the shenouda character..No disrespect intended.

Shenouda is the Coptic (Oriental Orfthodox) Patriarch of Alexandria, for whom "Pope" is a proper honorific. He's not even in communion with OrthodoxyUSA's church.

However, he is like any other Orthodox patriarch, he's the bishop of his diocese and has some sort of moral and teaching authority, but no real order-giving authority, over the rest of the Egyptian Coptic Church. Contrast this with Benedict XVI, who can appareently tell Catholics how they should vote. (See OBOB discussions on this, in case I'm misrepresenting their position.)

 

[simonthezealot]

Thanks Simon.
Even though I have been out of the catholic church for a quite a while, I had a lifetime of being fed things that I still need to go over.

I understand and respect this...I came from the Lutheran Missouri Synod and it took me a long while to cleanse myself from church taught things to a renewing of the mind and a clear vision of Jesus the Christ without my LCMS presupposed lenses. Your desire and search for truth will be on my prayer list.

 

[simonthezealot]

Shenouda is the Coptic (Oriental Orfthodox) Patriarch of Alexandria, for whom "Pope" is a proper honorific. He's not even in communion with OrthodoxyUSA's church.

However, he is like any other Orthodox patriarch, he's the bishop of his diocese and has some sort of moral and teaching authority, but no real order-giving authority, over the rest of the Egyptian Coptic Church. Contrast this with Benedict XVI, who can appareently tell Catholics how they should vote. (See OBOB discussions on this, in case I'm misrepresenting their position.)

since he was telling them how to vote it is to sad they would not listen.

 

[Trento]

1. In the NT, there is no office of priest. The only time that's mentioned in the NT is in reference to Christ who is the High Priest and to all Christians.



Pax


- Josiah




.

Num. 16:1-35 - Korah incited a "protestant" rebellion against God's chosen Moses in an effort to confuse the distinction between the ministerial and universal offices of priesthood, and Korah and his followers perished. This effort to blind the distinctions between the priests and the laity is still pursued by dissidents today.

 

[Standing Up]

Num. 16:1-35 - Korah incited a "protestant" rebellion against God's chosen Moses in an effort to confuse the distinction between the ministerial and universal offices of priesthood, and Korah and his followers perished. This effort to blind the distinctions between the priests and the laity is still pursued by dissidents today.

Like I've been saying in a number of threads around here ...

The OT Levitical priesthood is not the model for the NT believer in the High Priest Jesus Christ of the tribe of Judah of the Melchizedek priesthood.

Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

That ain't Levi of whom we're speaking.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

The OT Levitical priesthood is not the model for the NT believer in the High Priest Jesus Christ of the tribe of Judah of the Melchizedek priesthood.

Nobody claimed that it was. (He's a pretty strawman though.)

Forgive me...

 

[Standing Up]

Nobody claimed that it was. (He's a pretty strawman though.)

Forgive me...

Well, I assume you're reading others' posts besides mine. I was responding to Trento's (about 3 up from this one). It'll come to you.

 

[MamaZ]

with the office of the Priest some believe they are to be single also. This has always made me wonder since in the early part of the church there were married popes..

 

[Polycarp1]

with the office of the Priest some believe they are to be single also. This has always made me wonder since in the early part of the church there were married popes..

That's not a belief even for the Catholics, Mama. It's a Law of the Church, not God's doing but the church hierarchy's -- and they can change it if they see fit. Benedict XVI could announce it's no longer binding tomorrow if he so chose. It was originally adopted to keep married priests from leaving their pastorates to their sons, who may not have been good priests. (Biblical analogy: Eli's sons in I Samuel.) It's kept for the same reason that "preacher's kid" is a running joke in Protestant circles -- it's really difficult for a clergyman to balance the demands of his church family and his own marital family. But there are tons of married Catholic priests -- in the Eastern Rites, married clergymen who convert... And Orthodox and Anglican priests are normally married unless they're under monastic vows (common in Orthodoxy, rare but existent in Anglicanism).

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

That's not a belief even for the Catholics, Mama. It's a Law of the Church, not God's doing but the church hierarchy's -- and they can change it if they see fit. Benedict XVI could announce it's no longer binding tomorrow if he so chose. It was originally adopted to keep married priests from leaving their pastorates to their sons, who may not have been good priests. (Biblical analogy: Eli's sons in I Samuel.) It's kept for the same reason that "preacher's kid" is a running joke in Protestant circles -- it's really difficult for a clergyman to balance the demands of his church family and his own marital family. But there are tons of married Catholic priests -- in the Eastern Rites, married clergymen who convert... And Orthodox and Anglican priests are normally married unless they're under monastic vows (common in Orthodoxy, rare but existent in Anglicanism).

QFT!

Forgive me...

 

[Rebekah30]

Contrast this with Benedict XVI, who can appareently tell Catholics how they should vote. (See OBOB discussions on this, in case I'm misrepresenting their position.)

The clergy guides the laity at all times. They do not want them to sin nor cause others to sin. Nor cause harm to anyone.
A vote is a powerful tool, with it someone is elected to power and with that laws can be made or undone.
To instruct someone not to vote for someone because they support certain issues is a moral obligation of a clergyman in any denomination, they have the duty to do so, IMO.
Their job is to pastor the faithful to live a moral life in all areas of their lives.

 

[Secundulus]

That's not a belief even for the Catholics, Mama. It's a Law of the Church, not God's doing but the church hierarchy's -- and they can change it if they see fit. Benedict XVI could announce it's no longer binding tomorrow if he so chose. It was originally adopted to keep married priests from leaving their pastorates to their sons, who may not have been good priests. (Biblical analogy: Eli's sons in I Samuel.) It's kept for the same reason that "preacher's kid" is a running joke in Protestant circles -- it's really difficult for a clergyman to balance the demands of his church family and his own marital family. But there are tons of married Catholic priests -- in the Eastern Rites, married clergymen who convert... And Orthodox and Anglican priests are normally married unless they're under monastic vows (common in Orthodoxy, rare but existent in Anglicanism).

There is even one married Catholic Priest who is a converted Southern Baptist Minister. I read about him on a blog a few months ago. It's not just for Anglicans.

Clerical Whispers: Married, ex-Baptist minister to become Catholic priest

"He'll make a great priest," said Joe Kleine-Kracht, a former parish council president at St. Barnabas, who said Harris' preaching style is "almost revival like."
"He was really big on spreading the word and telling us as Catholics we need to make sure we're spreading the word," he said.
​

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

The clergy guides the laity at all times. They do not want them to sin nor cause others to sin. Nor cause harm to anyone.
A vote is a powerful tool, with it someone is elected to power and with that laws can be made or undone.
To instruct someone not to vote for someone because they support certain issues is a moral obligation of a clergyman in any denomination, they have the duty to do so, IMO.
Their job is to pastor the faithful to live a moral life in all areas of their lives.

I agree.

Forgive me...