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the number of a man

apple2345

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This is my interpretation of Revelation 13:18 NIV

This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. That number is 666.

So the number 666 is only used one other time in scripture in reference to the weight of gold king Solomon received yearly (1 kings 10:14). So, I think the beast will be a wealthy man.

Colossians 3:5 says greed is idolatry, which means he could deny Jesus by worshipping money.

Then, because this does not necessarily tie him to any one religion, he will probably come from a western or democratic region. Because, let's face it, if the world adopted a democratic government, it would start to resemble Sodom and Gomorrah before you know it (Luke 17:28-30).
 
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Gottservant

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The number of a man is mistranslated to 666, it is in fact 616.

616 is the number of a man, because a man thinks, then waits, then thinks again (six is a number for thought, one is a number for waiting).

The misconception is to think that the antichrist has some sort of pattern lead agenda, that is antichristian.

The truth is, he is simply a man who does not think of God separately from himself.
 
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apple2345

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The number of a man is mistranslated to 666, it is in fact 616.

616 is the number of a man, because a man thinks, then waits, then thinks again (six is a number for thought, one is a number for waiting).

The misconception is to think that the antichrist has some sort of pattern lead agenda, that is antichristian.

The truth is, he is simply a man who does not think of God separately from himself.

Of all the responses I thought possible, this is beyond what I expected. Where on earth do you get evidence to support this being misinterpreted.
 
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Kieran

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The number of a man is mistranslated to 666, it is in fact 616.

616 is the number of a man, because a man thinks, then waits, then thinks again (six is a number for thought, one is a number for waiting).

The misconception is to think that the antichrist has some sort of pattern lead agenda, that is antichristian.

The truth is, he is simply a man who does not think of God separately from himself.

I have also heard of this, namely in a video by Roman Catholic apologist Jimmy Akin (I believe), who then applied the number to one or more people including Nero.
 
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Gottservant

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It was reported in the Herald Sun where I am some time ago (years).

The translations are very similar and it is thought that is the reason for the error.

If you will reflect on what I said, you will find that there is truth to the reasoning that follows from the choice of a different number.
 
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apple2345 said in post 1:

This is my interpretation of Revelation 13:18 NIV

This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. That number is 666.

The "666" in Revelation 13:17c-18 refers to the number six hundred and sixty-six, the "number of the name" of the individual "man" who is the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast). The number of a name (Revelation 13:17c-18, Revelation 15:2) is determined by employing the ancient method of gematria, by which numerical values are assigned to the letters of any alphabet as follows: the first nine letters are 1 through 9, the next nine letters are 10 through 90 (counting by tens), and the rest of the letters are 100, 200, 300, etc., to the end of the alphabet. In Revelation 13:18, the "counting", the adding up, of the gematrial number of the Antichrist's name should be done in the same way that the gematrial numerical values of the 3 Greek letters (Chi, Xi, and Stigma) at the end of Revelation 13:18 (in the original Greek Textus Receptus) are added up to arrive at the number six hundred and sixty-six.

The numerical values of the letters of the ancient Greek alphabet (including the 3 obsolete letters of Stigma, Qoppa, and Sampi) were as follows: Alpha = 1, Beta = 2, Gamma = 3, Delta = 4, Epsilon = 5, Stigma = 6, Zeta = 7, Eta = 8, Theta = 9, Iota = 10, Kappa = 20, Lambda = 30, Mu = 40, Nu = 50, Xi = 60, Omikron = 70, Pi = 80, Qoppa = 90, Rho = 100, Sigma = 200, Tau = 300, Upsilon = 400, Phi = 500, Chi = 600, Psi = 700, Omega = 800, Sampi = 900.

Just as the numerical values of Chi, Xi, and Stigma at the end of Revelation 13:18 (in the Textus Receptus) add up to 666, so the numerical values of the letters in the Antichrist's name will add up to 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18). John used the Greek alphabet because it was the most common one used by believers when the book of Revelation was written. Today, the English alphabet is the most common one used by believers, insofar as English is the current lingua franca of the world. So the Antichrist's name will most likely add up to 666 in the English alphabet. The purpose of Revelation 13:17c-18 is to facilitate for believers, not to make difficult for them, the identification of a certain man as possibly being the Antichrist. If the letters in his name had to be transliterated into the Greek alphabet, this would vitiate this purpose, for almost all believers today wouldn't know how to properly perform this transliteration, and so different believers would come up with different transliterations, and so would come up with different gematrial numbers for the name of the man in question.

If believers think that someone is the Antichrist, they need to check and make sure that his name adds up to 666 in gematria (Revelation 13:17c-18). If it doesn't, then he isn't the Antichrist. If it does, then he could be, and they need to be especially wary of him and not be taken in by any deceptive charisma, intelligence, or amazing deeds that he might display. But even if someone's name adds up to 666, this doesn't mean that he's definitely the Antichrist. For just by chance there could be more than one person in the world whose name adds up to 666. The Antichrist also has to come from a country the territory of which used to be part of one of the 4 Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). These kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist could come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4), and have a name like (for example) "Nabil Abdullah Falakal al-Hakim", which adds up to 666.

But if a man from the Middle East has a name which adds up to 666, even this doesn't assure that he's the Antichrist. For he also has to sit (at least one time) in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2). Once he does that, there won't be any room for doubt over whether or not he's the Antichrist; his identity will have been definitely revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:3b-4).

The gematrial numerical values of the letters of the English alphabet are: A=1, B=2, C=3, D=4, E=5, F=6, G=7, H=8, I=9, J=10, K=20, L=30, M=40, N=50, O=60, P=70, Q=80, R=90, S=100, T=200, U=300, V=400, W=500, X=600, Y=700, Z=800. The way that the gematrial number of a name is "counted" (Revelation 13:17c-18), is added up, is simply by adding up the gematrial numerical values of all the letters in that name. So, for example, the number of the name "John Mark Smith" is 636, because: J=10, O=60, H=8, N=50, M=40, A=1, R=90, K=20, S=100, M=40, I=9, T=200, H=8. Total = 636. The Antichrist's name will add up to 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18).
 
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Bible2

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Gottservant said in post 2:

The number of a man is mistranslated to 666, it is in fact 616.

Any Revelation manuscript with 616 is incorrect, possibly altered by those who mistakenly thought that Nero had been the Antichrist. The true gematrial number of the Antichrist's name is only 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18): Irenaeus (born c. 140 AD) said "this number [666] being found in all the most approved and ancient copies [of Revelation], and those men who saw John face to face bearing their testimony; while reason also leads us to conclude that the number of the name of the beast, according to the Greek mode of calculation by the [value of] the letters contained in it, will amount to six hundred and sixty and six" (Against Heresies 5:30:1). This mode of calculation, or method of gematria, is the same in the Greek alphabet, the Hebrew alphabet, the English alphabet, and any other alphabet: the first nine letters in the alphabet are 1 through 9, the next nine letters are 10 through 90 (counting by tens), and the rest of the letters are 100, 200, 300, etc., to the end of the alphabet.
 
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Bible2

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Kieran said in post 4:

I have also heard of this, namely in a video by Roman Catholic apologist Jimmy Akin (I believe), who then applied the number to one or more people including Nero.

Some people say that Nero was the Antichrist. But any mistaken teaching which claims that the Antichrist has already come and gone could be employed in the future by the real Antichrist to fool some Christians into thinking that he isn't the Antichrist.

Nero didn't fulfill the detailed references to the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) in Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 16:2-16, Revelation 19:19-21, and Revelation 20:4. Also, Nero didn't fulfill other prophecies regarding the Antichrist (e.g. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-9, Daniel 11:31,36; cf. Matthew 24:15). And John the apostle didn't see the vision of Revelation until decades after the time of Nero. For Irenaeus (born c. 140 AD) said: "We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him [John] who beheld the apocalyptic vision [Revelation]. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign" (Against Heresies 5:30:3c). The end of Domitian's reign was 96 AD. Nero's reign was 54-68 AD. The detailed prophecies regarding the Antichrist, just as the rest of the tribulation prophecies of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, have never been fulfilled.

~

Also, regarding the claim (made by some) that Nero's name in Hebrew added up to 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18), is there an ancient historical source which shows how "Nero Caesar" was usually transliterated into Hebrew at the time that Revelation was written, so we can confirm whether or not the usual Hebrew transliteration of "Nero Caesar" added up to 666 in Hebrew gematria, instead of an intentionally-altered Hebrew spelling? For example, why was an "n" added after "Nero", to make "Neron"; and why was the "ae" of "Caesar" skipped to make "Csar", when, for example, the "ae" in "Israel" gets at least an "aleph" in Hebrew? Could "Neron Csar" in fact be an intentionally-altered, never-actually-used spelling that adds up to 666, just as people today could intentionally mistransliterate into Hebrew the name of someone living today so that the mistransliterated name adds up to 666 in Hebrew gematria? Also, just by chance there could be more than one person in the world whose name adds up to 666. So even if it could be proven that the usual Hebrew spelling of "Nero Caesar" added up to 666, or that the usual spelling of the name of someone living today adds up to 666, this doesn't require that that person is the Antichrist.

Also, should we even assume that the Antichrist's name has to be transliterated into Hebrew for it to add up to 666? For Revelation was originally addressed to Greek-speaking Gentile churches in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) (what's now western Turkey), not to Hebrew-speaking Jewish churches in Judaea. And John the apostle used 3 letters from the Greek alphabet to express the number 666 in Revelation 13:18 (in the original Greek Textus Receptus), not any letters from the Hebrew alphabet. (But this doesn't require that the Antichrist's name has to be transliterated into Greek in order for it to add up to 666, for John used the Greek alphabet only because it was the most common one used by the believers he was addressing at the time Revelation was written.) Also, even when "Nero Caesar" (instead of "Neron Csar") is transliterated into Hebrew, it doesn't have to result in the name adding up to 666:

N - Nun = 50 (cf. the "Ne" in "Nebo" in the Hebrew of Num. 32:3: Nun for the "N" and nothing for the "e")
E /
R - Reysh = 200
O - Vav = 6 (cf. the "o" in "Nebo" in the Hebrew of Num. 32:3 being the letter Vav)

C - Qowph = 100 (cf. "Kareah" in the Hebrew of Jer. 40:8, & "Caesar" being "Kaisar" in the Greek of Mt. 22:17)
A - Aleph = 1 (cf. the "ae" in "Israel" in the Hebrew of Gen. 32:28: Aleph for the "a" and nothing for the "e")
E /
S - Samek = 60 (cf. the "sar" in "Ellasar" in the Hebrew of Gen. 14:1: Samek for the "s" & nothing for the "a")
A /
R - Reysh = 200

Total = 617
 
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apple2345

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It was reported in the Herald Sun where I am some time ago (years).

The translations are very similar and it is thought that is the reason for the error.

If you will reflect on what I said, you will find that there is truth to the reasoning that follows from the choice of a different number.

Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of the infallibility of scripture?
 
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Yes it does .... this should be obvious to anyone

Numerical gematria is a fantasy methology for attempting to convert language characters into values

These are a dime a dozen and can be used selectively to fit just about anything under the sun

Failure is always in the wind when this is done to identify the “antichrist”

The 6 digit component of this Satanic triad represents imperfection, just short of the number 7

The 6 is corruptive …. the 7 is perfection

The three taken together represents the connected relationship between Satan [6], his beast [6], and a man [6]

It is the understanding of this relationship that will allow for one to know just who the biblical entities are as defined in scripture [Satan, Abaddon, the “Assyrian” [the human little horn of Daniel’s visions

There are these three in combination that will be involved on the earth during the coming time of the Lord’s hour of trial and judgment [Revelation 12:12; 9:11; 13:1-4; Daniel 11:36-45; Micah 5:5-6]
 
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Gottservant

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Look, I realize Christians don't ever learn something until it is missing, but just see if you can jump the gun on me on this one.

The beast is world leader. The world leader leads men. Men are not lead by animals.

So if the bible says his number is the number of a man, dontcha think that might be how he leads men, by his name? Dontcha think that might be how he distinguishes himself from animals, that he leads men? Dontcha think that if he wants to act like a beast, he will keep these two things in mind?

How's he going to do that? With the mind of a god, perhaps? What's the number for that, 212? or 222?

You tell me. Seriously, I want to know: 212 or 222? Which is the mind of a god?

I am demonstrating that I know what I am talking about here.
 
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apple2345

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Look, I realize Christians don't ever learn something until it is missing, but just see if you can jump the gun on me on this one.

The beast is world leader. The world leader leads men. Men are not lead by animals.

So if the bible says his number is the number of a man, dontcha think that might be how he leads men, by his name? Dontcha think that might be how he distinguishes himself from animals, that he leads men? Dontcha think that if he wants to act like a beast, he will keep these two things in mind?

How's he going to do that? With the mind of a god, perhaps? What's the number for that, 212? or 222?

You tell me. Seriously, I want to know: 212 or 222? Which is the mind of a god?

I am demonstrating that I know what I am talking about here.

No, I think what I just wrote in the opening post and I will add to it what timewatcher said about an unholy trinity.

I don't know what you are saying at all, I am sorry to say. But, I might suggest reading a good new or old testament survey that might clear up some of the confusion you and the Herald Sun had about the forming of the cannon of scripture.
 
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ancientsoul

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the 'unholy trinity' referred to in another post ...

Revelation 16:13 ... the vials of wrath ... And I saw the unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

666 = 6 seal, 6 trump, 6 vial ... false Christ

777 = 7 seal, 7 trump, 7 vial ... Christ
 
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yeshuasavedme

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God does not "do" gematria, and the passage was sealed as to understanding even how to translate it until these end times.
The "number" is the "multitude" of islamic jihadists wearing the badge of allegiance to the evil satanic allah and to his prophet, muhammid.
This is what John saw written in arabic and copied, which no man could translate because islam was not even around at that time, and the 8th kingdom arising from the 7 and being the islamic caliphate revived was not yet come, and so, the false doctrines of gematria and confusion entered the church.

The multitude of his name wearing the badge of jihad and allegiance to allah and muhammid were seen by John, and he wrote their badges' [of servitude] writing, which seemed to be something in greek numbers, but was exactly what the islamic jihadists wear on their badges on arms or foreheads -and flags and even, as in the case of the resident of the white house, on their rings.
Walid Shoebat, a former plo palestinian born, converted to Jesus born again in Christ believer, has opened the understanding by showing what John saw written, which is, in arabic "bism allah" [edited to show what Walid shows in video link].

This is the declaration of, and pledge of allegiance and servitude to the Antichrist spirit of islam, which denies the Father and the Son. "there is no god but allah, and muhammid is his prophet/messenger" is written on their badges.

Walid Shoebat - Mark of the Beast - YouTube
 
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apple2345

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Hmm, see I disagree that Islam is involved. While it may seem a more obvious form of idolatry, I think it neglects what it says in Matthew 24:24 "For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect."

Who in the church is going to be deceived by Islam? That is fairly obvious idolatry.

And Islam's denial of Christ is in strong competition with the scientific/atheist movement as well. For example, Sam Harris' book The End of Faith.

What is more deceiving about this concept is the idea that it really could provide the most fair solution for everyone, or peace, because it would allow all all forms of idolatry to coexist. Therefore, permitting us all to become citizens of a large nation and then the required mark would be a form of citizenship to that nation. Or, acceptance that this is really the best way for everybody. Or, a modern day Sodom and Gomorrah where people can behave however they wish.

Greed being the a subtle form of idolatry used to deceive the world, and as scripture says, even the elect if it were possible.
 
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My Comments:

It is Satan's beast who will deceive an unbelieving world during the coming tribulation [2 Thessalonians 2:8-14]

Matthew 24 is all about Israel in the same period an is not directed toward today's church

No true believer of His ecclesia will ever be confronted by the beast and subjected to his deceptions

The core amd ancient issue between Isaac amd Jacob vs Ishmael and Esau will be the back drop and focus of the tribulation period .... Israel vs the Mulsims

Both descendants of Abraham .... and there will be a winner in this conflice

God's Son Jesus Christ will be the leader of the first .... and Satan's beast will be the pied piper of the other

This same offest can be seen today and what you are seeing is the prelude to the coming battle of Armaggeddon which will take place in the Middle East

This upheaval will effect the entire earth as the Lord will go forth to settle the conflict [Isaiah 63; Jeremiah 30; Ezekiel 38:39; Daniel 11:36; Joel 2; 3; Micah 5; Zechariah 14]

If one does not research the OT for these things, you will never understand Bible prophecy

Unfortunately most people have been taught to either ignore, or commit most of the OT to allegory and they have scant knowledge of the same
 
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apple2345

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My Comments:

Matthew 24 is all about Israel in the same period an is not directed toward today's church

Hmm, Matthew 24 is not directed at today's church even though verse 3 says:

Matthew 24:3 NIV

As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"

How is Jesus talking about the end of the age and His coming and revelation is talking about the end of the age and His coming, but somehow they are not talking about the same time?
 
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