The Noahide Laws

[ImperialJohn]

I just wondered what the difference is between Jewish and Messianic Jewish belief of the Noahide Laws and the belief towards non-Jews if anything and what laws they must keep?

Why do many mainstream Jews believe non-Jews should be prohibited from keeping the Torah (old testament)?

Does this belief actually come from the Torah itself and thus God or is it from Jewish law & tradition e.g. the Talmud?

If it is the case that non-Jews only need to keep the 7 Noahide laws why not Jews only keep these 7 too?

Also why do some authorities add, or extend the 7 Laws to include additional prohibitions or thing you must do. E.g. Against mixing species of seeds or animals, castration, sorcery, and giving to charity?

If the Noahide laws is Jewish belief of a way for non-Jews to get to Heaven, why do they need to add to these laws and expand on them to include essentially other Torah commandments?

Why is it forbidden for non-Jews to keep the Ten Commandments or the full 613 commandments of the Torah? Where does God say this in the Torah that it is only for Jews? Or does this just come from the Talmud and Jewish tradition and not from God?

Didn't God give the Commandments to all Israel not just the Jews? E.g. not just the three tribes, Judah, Levi and Benjamin?

Do mainstream Jews only believe the law came into existence at Mount Sinai when Moses came down with the stone tablets written by the hand of God? Was the Sabbath not instituted at Creation and in effect from then? There were no Jews back then.

Why does the Bible show righteous Gentiles keeping Sabbath with Jews and praying, teaching, learning in the Temple? Why did Samarians keep Sabbath?

Finally, do the Noahide Laws really exist? I've looked for them in the Bible but am unable to find them.

 

[Hoshiyya]

"Why do many mainstream Jews believe non-Jews should be prohibited from keeping the Torah (old testament)?...Why is it forbidden for non-Jews to keep the Ten Commandments or the full 613 commandments of the Torah? "

I have no idea why you use the word "prohibited". Has any Rabbi or Rabbinical text ever prohibited anyone from keeping Torah ?

 

[Hoshiyya]

Well actually there are some cases where you are advised to not keep Torah.

If you had a child die during circumcision, you are not allowed to circumcize your next son, because of the risk. With three exceptions, saving life is more important than any other mitzvah.

This has nothing do with race, however.

 

[ImperialJohn]

"Why do many mainstream Jews believe non-Jews should be prohibited from keeping the Torah (old testament)?...Why is it forbidden for non-Jews to keep the Ten Commandments or the full 613 commandments of the Torah? "

I have no idea why you use the word "prohibited". Has any Rabbi or Rabbinical text ever prohibited anyone from keeping Torah ?

I read that some in non-Messianic Judaism perhaps Orthodox Jews believe that the Commandments are only for Jews and they look badly on Gentiles who keep Torah and especially the Sabbath.

I am just trying to understand where that thinking could come from that it only applies to Jews and not Gentiles?

 

[Hoshiyya]

I read that some in non-Messianic Judaism perhaps Orthodox Jews believe that the Commandments are only for Jews and they look badly on Gentiles who keep Torah and especially the Sabbath.

I am just trying to understand where that thinking could come from that it only applies to Jews and not Gentiles?

"I read that some in ... perhaps Orthodox Jews believe that the Commandments are only for Jews"

Never have I heard any Rabbi say that.

Look, many (Christians, Muslims, atheists, others) people are willing to speak "on behalf" of Talmud and Tradition and the Rabbanan, but very often they misrepresent and misquote them so as to slander them or irrationalize them.

The Rabbis say that the OBLIGATION to keep Torah is only on Jews, however all the Rabbis living today that I know of welcome converts and the spread of mitzvot.

Pesach is a bit different, since the Torah ITSELF says that only Israelites can partake of it, that's not something the Rabbanan invented. I have heard one Rabbi say that Shabbat, with all its laws, are only for Jews, but that was a very theoretical statement bordering on a joke. I'm loathe to even mention it since it requires a lot of context to explain.

 

[ImperialJohn]

Well actually there are some cases where you are advised to not keep Torah.

If you had a child die during circumcision, you are not allowed to circumcize your next son, because of the risk. With three exceptions, saving life is more important than any other mitzvah.

This has nothing do with race, however.

Circumcision is actually something I have a question on.

Where does it say in the Torah or Bible that you are advised not to keep Torah?

Circumcision is one of the few areas I don't fully understand.

What is the significance of circumcision?

Looking at the whole Bible from Genesis to Revelation, it seems to me that this is the only thing that really changed?

I am thinking in particular of Romans 2:25-29 and 1 Corinthians 7:19. Or perhaps it didn't change but was just clarified as being okay for gentiles to not be?

In Hebrews 13:8 though it says that Yeshua the Messiah is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Mat 5:17 "Don't think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete.
Mat 5:18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud ( י ) or a stroke will pass from the Torah — not until everything that must happen has happened.
Mat 5:19 So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Gen 17:14 Any uncircumcised male who will not let himself be circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin — that person will be cut off from his people, because he has broken my covenant."

As far as circumcision is concerned there is an interesting conflict with Romans 2:25-29 and 1 Corinthians 7:19.

I believe there can only be one of three conclusions.

Either Romans 2:25-29 and 1 Corinthians 7:19 are not biblical or from God and were added which would mean all scripture is not inspired as per 2 Timothy 3:16. I don't think this is possible so I discount this.

The second conclusion is that I am misunderstanding or misinterpreting Romans 2:25-29 and 1 Corinthians 7:19? This is possible.

And the final conclusion is that Romans 2:25-29 and 1 Corinthians 7:19 are valid but they don't contradict or change anything. It is simply stated for the first time that circumcision was not binding on Gentiles but on Jews and the nation of Israel? Could it be that these two covenants one slightly different but all still equally valid and applicable?

The scripture in Acts to do with clean and unclean meats is clear to me and I understand that it wasn't a reference to meat but to people and therefore the meats God pronounced unfit for human consumption in the dietary law are sill unfit. Circumcision though is not so clear to me especially given what it says in Romans 2:25-29 and 1 Corinthians 7:19 apart from my conclusions above to explain this.

In the UK it is very uncommon for anyone to be circumcised who is Christian. It is not a tradition or practice here as it is in the US for non-Jews and Muslims.

I am open to being convinced either way and to fully understand what Romans 2:25-29 and 1 Corinthians 7:19 mean and whether the Torah and Bible say that Gentiles should be circumcised or not? Though I am unable to see anywhere where it says that you shouldn't keep Torah and Bible?

 

[ImperialJohn]

"I read that some in ... perhaps Orthodox Jews believe that the Commandments are only for Jews"

Never have I heard any Rabbi say that.

Look, many (Christians, Muslims, atheists, others) people are willing to speak "on behalf" of Talmud and Tradition and the Rabbanan, but very often they misrepresent and misquote them so as to slander them or irrationalize them.

The Rabbis say that the OBLIGATION to keep Torah is only on Jews, however all the Rabbis living today that I know of welcome converts and the spread of mitzvot.

Pesach is a bit different, since the Torah ITSELF says that only Israelites can partake of it, that's not something the Rabbanan invented. I have heard one Rabbi say that Shabbat, with all its laws, are only for Jews, but that was a very theoretical statement bordering on a joke. I'm loathe to even mention it since it requires a lot of context to explain.

I generally ignore anyone who says bad things about Jews and the Talmud. I know very little to nothing about Talmud so can not pass comment on it.

If you are Messianic do you keep Talmud? Most Messianics I know do not, only keep Torah.

What does "Israelites" mean? Only Jews? Or where there Gentile Israelites to?

As far as I understand it, only three tribes of Israel were fully Jewish in terms of "religion", the tribes of Judah, Levi and Benjamin?

As far as Passover is concerned I understand that it is possible for a Gentile to have a place at the table by being grafted into the Olive Tree.

Exo 12:43 Adonai said to Moshe and Aharon, "This is the regulation for the Pesach lamb: no foreigner is to eat it.

Exo 12:44 But if anyone has a slave he bought for money, when you have circumcised him, he may eat it.

Only the Goyim willing to be obedient to this very simple command can partake of the last supper, the Passover, the Pesach. No person who does not graft themselves into the Hebrew olive tree and Yehovah’s rules will be allowed a seat at His table back then or in the future when Yeshua drinks that final cup of wine with us in the New heaven.

 

[annier]

I just wondered what the difference is between Jewish and Messianic Jewish belief of the Noahide Laws and the belief towards non-Jews if anything and what laws they must keep?

Why do many mainstream Jews believe non-Jews should be prohibited from keeping the Torah (old testament)?

Does this belief actually come from the Torah itself and thus God or is it from Jewish law & tradition e.g. the Talmud?

If it is the case that non-Jews only need to keep the 7 Noahide laws why not Jews only keep these 7 too?

Also why do some authorities add, or extend the 7 Laws to include additional prohibitions or thing you must do. E.g. Against mixing species of seeds or animals, castration, sorcery, and giving to charity?

If the Noahide laws is Jewish belief of a way for non-Jews to get to Heaven, why do they need to add to these laws and expand on them to include essentially other Torah commandments?

To get to heaven? I did not think Judaism taught much on the next life. Noachide law was more about Gentiles which were righteous being counted as sons of Noah.
Ge 6:18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons’ wives with thee.
Ge 9:9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;

Why is it forbidden for non-Jews to keep the Ten Commandments or the full 613 commandments of the Torah? Where does God say this in the Torah that it is only for Jews? Or does this just come from the Talmud and Jewish tradition and not from God?

Ex 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Didn't God give the Commandments to all Israel not just the Jews? E.g. not just the three tribes, Judah, Levi and Benjamin?

God made the covenant with the ten. But Levites were given certain laws distinct from the common Israelite as well. Not any Jew or Israelite was commanded to perform law given to the Levites. Therefore it is not an odd idea that the law contains commandments for distinct person's to perform.

Do mainstream Jews only believe the law came into existence at Mount Sinai when Moses came down with the stone tablets written by the hand of God? Was the Sabbath not instituted at Creation and in effect from then? There were no Jews back then.

Why does the Bible show righteous Gentiles keeping Sabbath with Jews and praying, teaching, learning in the Temple? Why did Samarians keep Sabbath?

They were teaching Noachide law to the God fearers. This being a legal religious class of Gentile may have been afforded an exemption from Idol's under Roman law.

Finally, do the Noahide Laws really exist? I've looked for them in the Bible but am unable to find them.

In what form are you expecting to find them?
An example of God's Law being a common judgement upon all is best seen in these verses IMO.
Lev 18:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

Ge 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
Note that these are the things which God judged the nations, for defiling themselves and the land. He spew them out because of these things (see vs 24-25 & 27-28)
Lev 18:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the LORD your God.
3 After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances.
4 Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God.
5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.
7 The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
8 The nakedness of thy father’s wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father’s nakedness.
9 The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home, or born abroad, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover.
10 The nakedness of thy son’s daughter, or of thy daughter’s daughter, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover: for theirs is thine own nakedness.
11 The nakedness of thy father’s wife’s daughter, begotten of thy father, she is thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
12 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father’s sister: she is thy father’s near kinswoman.
13 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother’s sister: for she is thy mother’s near kinswoman.
14 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father’s brother, thou shalt not approach to his wife: she is thine aunt.
15 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter in law: she is thy son’s wife; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.
16 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother’s wife: it is thy brother’s nakedness.
17 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, neither shalt thou take her son’s daughter, or her daughter’s daughter, to uncover her nakedness; for they are her near kinswomen: it is wickedness.
18 Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex her, to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life time.
19 Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness.
20 Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour’s wife, to defile thyself with her.
21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.
22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.
24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.
27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled
28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.
29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.
30 Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God.

It is pretty clear God's Judgement on these things concerned everyone. These things were before Levitical law, and the Sinai covenant. Levitical law is in addition as Levitical law retained these judgments. The latter law did not disannul prior judgment so to speak.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Rabbis passed on the tradition from Sinai that saving life is more important that all commandments except 3 commandments, or 3 categories of commandment.

If you have to choose between circumcizing a child and thereby risking killing him, on the one hand, and on the other hand not circumcizing him, then it is better to not circumcize him. Makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Hoshiyya]

"where there Gentile Israelites to?"

Yes, many Egyptians converted and joined Israel in the time of the Exodus. A convert could become a Jew/Israelite. As for which specific tribe he belonged to, if any, that's a bit more diffcult for me, as I don't have any knowledge on that particular issue.

Chances are all gentile converts to Torah Judaism back then would simply be "Israelites" without belonging to a tribe, or possibly Judah would be the automatic default choice, who knows.

 

[yonah_mishael]

I have to concur with the OP. There is certainly a restriction in Orthodoxy for non-Jews to perform certain mitzvot. For example, a non-Jew (as far as Orthodoxy has control over it) should not: keep Shabbat completely, lay tefillin, read from the Torah scroll, offer blessings in Hebrew instead of Jews (to which "amen" would normally fulfill the requirement of the blessing), etc.

 

[Hoshiyya]

I have to concur with the OP. There is certainly a restriction in Orthodoxy for non-Jews to perform certain mitzvot. For example, a non-Jew (as far as Orthodoxy has control over it) should not: keep Shabbat completely, lay tefillin, read from the Torah scroll, offer blessings in Hebrew instead of Jews (to which "amen" would normally fulfill the requirement of the blessing), etc.

I thought some of that was a bit obvious, assuming you're referring to synagogue functions. And he can't act as high priest either, to state the even more obvious.

 

[yonah_mishael]

I just checked online, and the justification for Gentiles not keeping Shabbat (they should at least turn on a light switch or write something down on paper during Shabbat) is that Shabbat was given as a sign between God and Israel forever (ביני ובין בני ישראל אות היא לעול&#1501. Therefore, a non-Jew who keeps Shabbat completely violates the sanctity of this compact between God and Israel. It is not a sign for the the non-Jew to participate in.

That's the halachah on the matter.

 

[Hoshiyya]

My impression is/was the OP was talking about more general mitzvas, and not things like his role in a synagogue

 

[Hoshiyya]

I just checked online, and the justification for Gentiles not keeping Shabbat (they should at least turn on a light switch or write something down on paper during Shabbat) is that Shabbat was given as a sign between God and Israel forever (ביני ובין בני ישראל אות היא לעול&#1501. Therefore, a non-Jew who keeps Shabbat completely violates the sanctity of this compact between God and Israel. It is not a sign for the the non-Jew to participate in.

That's the halachah on the matter.

Which is meaningless relative to converts, who are required to keep the Shabbat.

 

[yonah_mishael]

Which is meaningless relative to converts, who are required to keep the Shabbat.

Funny that you would bring this up. The rabbis were divided on this issue. I think it was basically decided that even those who are undergoing conversion are under the same expectation as a non-Jew - to violate Shabbat somehow every week. Practice keeping Shabbat, but not completely. Only after conversion are they supposed to keep their first Shabbat completely.

 

[visionary]

Funny that you would bring this up. The rabbis were divided on this issue. I think it was basically decided that even those who are undergoing conversion are under the same expectation as a non-Jew - to violate Shabbat somehow every week. Practice keeping Shabbat, but not completely. Only after conversion are they supposed to keep their first Shabbat completely.

Their version of keeping Shabbat is not all scriptural and those things they would like a gentile to do like turning on the lights is one of those found in Rabbinical teachings.

 

[yonah_mishael]

Their version of keeping Shabbat is not all scriptural and those things they would like a gentile to do like turning on the lights is one of those found in Rabbinical teachings.

So?

 

[mercy1061]

Circumcision is actually something I have a question on.

Circumcision is non-negotiable; no matter what any jew tell you. You must obey the law from our father Abraham concerning "circumcision on the 8th day". Abraham was circumcised in his old age, so every gentile must be circumcised.

Where does it say in the Torah or Bible that you are advised not to keep Torah?

Never.

Circumcision is one of the few areas I don't fully understand.

Circumcision explains salvation, once circumcised always circumcised, the dead flesh never grow back naturally.

What is the significance of circumcision?

"seal from righteousness", you must cut off the foreskin of flesh

Col 2:13
When you were dead because of the things you had done wrong and because your body wasn't circumcised, God made you alive with Christ and forgave all the things you had done wrong.

Looking at the whole Bible from Genesis to Revelation, it seems to me that this is the only thing that really changed?

Nothing has changed.

I am thinking in particular of Romans 2:25-29 and 1 Corinthians 7:19. Or perhaps it didn't change but was just clarified as being okay for gentiles to not be?

The law must be used lawfully or skillfully in order for the law to become a benefit to you. If the law is misused because the observer is not skillful, he may confuse his audience.

Romans 2
25 Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised.

If you break the law you will be treated as a uncircumcised lawbreaker; it does not matter that you are circumcised.

26 So then, if those who are not circumcised keep the law’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised?


Verse 26 is only a question that requires an answer. If a uncircumcised man keep the law's requirement then he would gladly become circumcised secretly.

27 The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the[c] written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.

Verse 27 answers verse 26. Those who keep the law will judge those who do not keep the law. A lawbreaker must be judged as a uncircumcised lawbreaker. Will it be proper for a criminal to explain to the judge that he has been circumcised in order to avoid DA prosecution or a sentencing hearing? Will the Court not convict him solely because he has been circumcised? The Court must review all the physical evidence, "circumcision on the 8th day" is not one of them in a foreign nation.

28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.

Circumcision does not convert a gentile into a jew; but all jews are circumcised. Isaac is an ancient jew, but Ishmael is not a jew, both sons have the same father but different mothers.

In Hebrews 13:8 though it says that Yeshua the Messiah is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Yes indeed.

Mat 5:17 "Don't think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete.
Mat 5:18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud ( י ) or a stroke will pass from the Torah — not until everything that must happen has happened.
Mat 5:19 So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Yes indeed.

Gen 17:14 Any uncircumcised male who will not let himself be circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin — that person will be cut off from his people, because he has broken my covenant."

As far as circumcision is concerned there is an interesting conflict with Romans 2:25-29 and 1 Corinthians 7:19.

No conflict. Pharisee Saul already explained that their bodies are dead, because they were not circumcised. Abraham and Sarah bodies were dead, when Isaac was born and circumcised by Abraham on the 8th day.

19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commands is what counts. 20 Each person should remain in the situation they were in when God called them.

Yes indeed.

I believe there can only be one of three conclusions.

Either Romans 2:25-29 and 1 Corinthians 7:19 are not biblical or from God and were added which would mean all scripture is not inspired as per 2 Timothy 3:16. I don't think this is possible so I discount this.

The second conclusion is that I am misunderstanding or misinterpreting Romans 2:25-29 and 1 Corinthians 7:19? This is possible.

And the final conclusion is that Romans 2:25-29 and 1 Corinthians 7:19 are valid but they don't contradict or change anything. It is simply stated for the first time that circumcision was not binding on Gentiles but on Jews and the nation of Israel? Could it be that these two covenants one slightly different but all still equally valid and applicable?

The scripture in Acts to do with clean and unclean meats is clear to me and I understand that it wasn't a reference to meat but to people and therefore the meats God pronounced unfit for human consumption in the dietary law are sill unfit. Circumcision though is not so clear to me especially given what it says in Romans 2:25-29 and 1 Corinthians 7:19 apart from my conclusions above to explain this.

In the UK it is very uncommon for anyone to be circumcised who is Christian. It is not a tradition or practice here as it is in the US for non-Jews and Muslims.

I am open to being convinced either way and to fully understand what Romans 2:25-29 and 1 Corinthians 7:19 mean and whether the Torah and Bible say that Gentiles should be circumcised or not? Though I am unable to see anywhere where it says that you shouldn't keep Torah and Bible?

Col 2:13 explains that your bodies are dead if your are uncircumcised, your body is made alive with Christ by G-d forgiving you, triumphing over the enemies by the cross. The pharisees, chief priests, and lawyers understood this. This is why Rome fell.

3 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you[d] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

 

[ChavaK]

I think it was basically decided that even those who are undergoing conversion are under the same expectation as a non-Jew - to violate Shabbat somehow every week. Practice keeping Shabbat, but not completely. Only after conversion are they supposed to keep their first Shabbat completely.

This is correct. Most flip on (or off) a light switch after bringing in shabbos. Only after they convert are they to follow shabbos fully.