The No-Straw-Man Calvinism challenge.

[redleghunter]

So who is 'doing the predestination"

Ephesians chapters one and two say it is the uncreated Creator God.

 

[dad]

Don’t think this is the case. See post above this one.

Do you see our free will as being influenced by our natures and if so what nature would that be before our conversion?

Regardless of what our will is influenced by we have one. We can chose to have it influenced by God.

 

[Hammster]

Regardless of what our will is influenced by we have one. We can chose to have it influenced by God.

Why would a non-believer chose to do that?

 

[redleghunter]

Regardless of what our will is influenced by we have one. We can chose to have it influenced by God.

And as pointed out over 30 pages no one argues against hu-mans having a will to choose.

What you are missing is that our hu-man will is influenced by certain things. I asked, what would be that influencer of our will prior to our conversion or non-conversion?

 

[dad]

Ephesians chapters one and two say it is the uncreated Creator God.

Verse?

 

[dad]

Why would a non-believer chose to do that?

Ah, well, I guess many of us were unbelievers at one time. I would think His sheep hear His voice. We had the opportunity to choose to get saved.

 

[Hammster]

Ah, well, I guess many of us were unbelievers at one time. I would think His sheep hear His voice. We had the opportunity to choose to get saved.

Then, according to your answer, and unbeliever would not chose to be influenced by God.

 

[dad]

And as pointed out over 30 pages no one argues against hu-mans having a will to choose.

What you are missing is that our hu-man will is influenced by certain things. I asked, what would be that influencer of our will prior to our conversion or non-conversion?

God's spirit. But if we resisted and rejected that influence, our free will would result in a very bad choice.

 

[dad]

Then, according to your answer, and unbeliever would not chose to be influenced by God.

Correct. They resist and refuse and chose another spirit.

 

[Hammster]

Correct. They resist and refuse and chose another spirit.

Then it’s only believers who are influenced by God, correct?

 

[redleghunter]

God's spirit. But if we resisted and rejected that influence, our free will would result in a very bad choice.

What makes us resist God and reject Him?

 

[dad]

Then it’s only believers who are influenced by God, correct?

Well, His sheep are influenced and if they are not believers, they become believers. I would think that He gives all men a chance to heed His voice. I guess we can't be influenced by Him inside if we keep Him outside.

 

[dad]

What makes us resist God and reject Him?

Why does something have to make us? How about we decide? 'If ye will..'

 

[Hammster]

Well, His sheep are influenced and if they are not believers, they become believers. I would think that He gives all men a chance to heed His voice. I guess we can't be influenced by Him inside if we keep Him outside.

What would make someone change their mind?

 

[redleghunter]

Why does something have to make us? How about we decide? 'If ye will..'

Some accept Jesus and some don’t and reject Him. The parable of the soils and wheat and tares tell us this.

Jesus said many are called but few are chosen.

What makes those who accept Christ more equal than others when according to your theology we have free will to choose God.

Why are some free wills more equal than others?

 

[dad]

What would make someone change their mind?

Their free will. If we can chose, we can change our mind. (of course God comes in and helps when we ask)

 

[dad]

Some accept Jesus and some don’t and reject Him. The parable of the soils and wheat and tares tell us this.

Jesus said many are called but few are chosen.

What makes those who accept Christ more equal than others when according to your theology we have free will to choose God.

Why are some free wills more equal than others?

We are chosen when we chose Him! He would love everyone to do that. It is not His will that men perish. But he let's us chose rather than force us. That is the name of the game.

 

[Hammster]

Their free will. If we can chose, we can change our mind. (of course God comes in and helps when we ask)

What exactly are they asking God for?

 

[Hammster]

We are chosen when we chose Him! He would love everyone to do that. It is not His will that men perish. But he let's us chose rather than force us. That is the name of the game.

What if God had a way to ensure we’d choose Him without force?

 

[redleghunter]

We are chosen when we chose Him! He would love everyone to do that. It is not His will that men perish. But he let's us chose rather than force us. That is the name of the game.

I would like to see some expository from Scriptures to support this claim that we choose Him before He chooses us. Romans 3 refutes this notion:

Romans 3: NASB

10as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”

13“THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,”
“THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;

14“WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING ANDBITTERNESS”;

15“THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,

16DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,

17AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.”

18“THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”

This is the state of each and everyone of us. We must be 'smacked upside the head and beat about the shoulders' by Someone as we are dead in our sins and trespasses and children of wrath (Ephesians 2).

We are dead spiritually and like Lazarus dead in the tomb rotting and stinking we must be made alive in Christ Jesus (Ephesians 2) before we can even choose.

“Awake, sleeper,
And arise from the dead,
And Christ will shine on you.” (Ephesians 5:14)