The No-Straw-Man Calvinism challenge.

[BobRyan]

Please, stick with the OP. If I start an Ask the Calvinist Thread, I'll let you know.

"Without defining what I think Calvinism is -- please find a challenge to it"??

 

[Hammster]

"Without defining what I think Calvinism is -- please find a challenge to it"??

I gave three links.

 

[BobRyan]

I gave three links.

Here are your links.

The 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith (I would have used the Westminster Confession, but I'm Baptist )

Like that link... Section 19
Chapter 19: Of the Law of God
1._____ God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience written in his heart, and a particular precept of not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil; by which he bound him and all his posterity to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.
( Genesis 1:27; Ecclesiastes 7:29; Romans 10:5; Galatians 3:10, 12 )
2._____ The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables, the four first containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.
( Romans 2:14, 15; Deuteronomy 10:4 )

3._____ Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly holding forth divers instructions of moral duties, all which ceremonial laws being appointed only to the time of reformation, are, by Jesus Christ the true Messiah and only law-giver, who was furnished with power from the Father for that end abrogated and taken away.
( Hebrews 10:1; Colossians 2:17; 1 Corinthians 5:7; Colossians 2:14, 16, 17; Ephesians 2:14, 16 )

4._____ To them also he gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the state of that people, not obliging any now by virtue of that institution; their general equity only being of moral use.
( 1 Corinthians 9:8-10 )

5._____ The moral law doth for ever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof, and that not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it; neither doth Christ in the Gospel any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.
( Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8, 10-12; James 2:10, 11; Matthew 5:17-19; Romans 3:31 )

6._____ Although true believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, in that as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts, and lives, so as examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against, sin; together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ and the perfection of his obedience; it is likewise of use to the regenerate to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin; and the threatenings of it serve to shew what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse and unallayed rigour thereof. The promises of it likewise shew them God's approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof, though not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works; so as man's doing good and refraining from evil, because the law encourageth to the one and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law and not under grace.
( Romans 6:14; Galatians 2:16; Romans 8:1; Romans 10:4; Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7, etc; Romans 6:12-14; 1 Peter 3:8-13 )

7._____ Neither are the aforementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it, the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully which the will of God, revealed in the law, requireth to be done.
( Galatians 3:21; Ezekiel 36:27 )

==========================

Is there some "specific section" you are referencing?

 

[Hammster]

Like that link... Section 19
Chapter 19: Of the Law of God
1._____ God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience written in his heart, and a particular precept of not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil; by which he bound him and all his posterity to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.
( Genesis 1:27; Ecclesiastes 7:29; Romans 10:5; Galatians 3:10, 12 )
2._____ The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables, the four first containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.
( Romans 2:14, 15; Deuteronomy 10:4 )

3._____ Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly holding forth divers instructions of moral duties, all which ceremonial laws being appointed only to the time of reformation, are, by Jesus Christ the true Messiah and only law-giver, who was furnished with power from the Father for that end abrogated and taken away.
( Hebrews 10:1; Colossians 2:17; 1 Corinthians 5:7; Colossians 2:14, 16, 17; Ephesians 2:14, 16 )

4._____ To them also he gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the state of that people, not obliging any now by virtue of that institution; their general equity only being of moral use.
( 1 Corinthians 9:8-10 )

5._____ The moral law doth for ever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof, and that not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it; neither doth Christ in the Gospel any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.
( Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8, 10-12; James 2:10, 11; Matthew 5:17-19; Romans 3:31 )

6._____ Although true believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, in that as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts, and lives, so as examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against, sin; together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ and the perfection of his obedience; it is likewise of use to the regenerate to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin; and the threatenings of it serve to shew what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse and unallayed rigour thereof. The promises of it likewise shew them God's approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof, though not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works; so as man's doing good and refraining from evil, because the law encourageth to the one and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law and not under grace.
( Romans 6:14; Galatians 2:16; Romans 8:1; Romans 10:4; Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7, etc; Romans 6:12-14; 1 Peter 3:8-13 )

7._____ Neither are the aforementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it, the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully which the will of God, revealed in the law, requireth to be done.
( Galatians 3:21; Ezekiel 36:27 )

==========================

Is there some "specific section" you are referencing?

Not really. But usually folks say "Calvinists believe xyz". So here they can go to a certain section that discusses election, for example, post what it has to say, and then question it.

 

[BobRyan]

Not really. But usually folks say "Calvinists believe xyz". So here they can go to a certain section that discusses election, for example, post what it has to say, and then question it.

Well as shown - section 19 of that document does not differ with my own views - but does not mean I am Calvinist.

 

[Hammster]

Well as shown - section 19 of that document does not differ with my own views - but does not mean I am Calvinist.

I never said it did. I'm sure there's overlap between synergism and monergism.

 

[BobRyan]

I never said it did. I'm sure there's overlap between synergism and monergism.

so then a lot of areas in that link that has nothing to do with Calvinism.

You said you are Baptist - many/much of the statements in the Baptist Confession of Faith and in "Baptist Faith and Message" have nothing at all to do with Calvinism.

Do you have any succinct statement on your version of Calvinism?

 

[Si_monfaith]

29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: “We ought to obey God rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree. 31 Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”
Acts 5:29-32


Jesus preached the Gospel to Israel, that they might repent.

The only way to receive salvation is to obey the Gospel command to repent.

• the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.

JLB

Romans 5: 21
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Sin rules man.

Romans 7: 17
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Sin does all actions through man. Man is not free.

How can man repent or obey?

 

[Hammster]

so then a lot of areas in that link that has nothing to do with Calvinism.

You said you are Baptist - many/much of the statements in the Baptist Confession of Faith and in "Baptist Faith and Message" have nothing at all to do with Calvinism.

Do you have any succinct statement on your version of Calvinism?

I would disagree and say that it all has to do with Reformed Theology in some fashion.

But the purpose of the OP was not to make a statement about Calvinism, or even an argument for Reformed Theology. It was to assist detractors in making better arguments against it.

 

[BobRyan]

I would disagree and say that it all has to do with Reformed Theology in some fashion.

As I said before - I am not even remotely Calvinist - but section 19 of that document is in perfect harmony with the Arminian doctrine that I hold - and has nothing at all to do with Calvinism. Giving me a lot of links to non-Calvinist statements does not help get 'to the point'.

But the purpose of the OP was not to make a statement about Calvinism, or even an argument for Reformed Theology. It was to assist detractors in making better arguments against it.

by doing what? Defining what it is? If so how in the world is this not about Calvinism and links supposedly defining what it is??

 

[Hammster]

As I said before - I am not even remotely Calvinist - but section 19 of that document is in perfect harmony with the Arminian doctrine that I hold - and has nothing at all to do with Calvinism. Giving me a lot of links to non-Calvinist statements does not help get 'to the point'.



by doing what? Defining what it is? If so how in the world is this not about Calvinism and links supposedly defining what it is??

Below you will find links to some various documents that those who hold to Reformed Theology will agree on, at least soteriologically. The challenge to to quote from one of them, and then state why you believe it is incorrect. This will hopefully lead to a reasoned discussion. Any argument that does not start this way will be considered off topic. You are, however, free to start your own thread on that matter.

Obviously, if you agree with a point, there's nothing to challenge. The OP, though, was put in place for those who disagree with Reformed Theology to have some sources to refer to before putting up an argument against Calvinism.

 

[JLB777]

Romans 5: 21
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Sin rules man.

Romans 7: 17
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Sin does all actions through man. Man is not free.

How can man repent or obey?

It's called the Gospel, the power of God unto salvation.


For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16


JLB

 

[Si_monfaith]

It's called the Gospel, the power of God unto salvation.


For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16


JLB

Willingness to hear. (Free gift)

Word that is preached. (Free gift)

Assurance (faith) that word is true. (Free gift)

Believing & confessing follows the above.

While all the first three are free gifts of God how can one say that he is saved because he believed & confessed?

Believing & confessing are done because one is saved & not to be saved.

 

[JLB777]

Believing & confessing are done because one is saved & not to be saved.

The result of obeying the Gospel, believing and confessing, is salvation by faith, which we will receive as an end result of our faith.

• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9

Salvation in tangible reality comes at the end, not the beginning.

For now we have salvation through faith, which is the hope of salvation.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1


We will receive, attain, see, obtain the salvation we are hoping for at the coming of the Lord and the resurrection of the dead in Christ.


Paul says it this way -

24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
Romans 8:24-25

• we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope;
• if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

We who have faith in Christ Jesus for salvation, are eagerly waiting for it with perseverance.


and again


so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

• To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

JLB

 

[Si_monfaith]

The result of obeying the Gospel, believing and confessing, is salvation by faith, which we will receive as an end result of our faith.

• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9

Salvation in tangible reality comes at the end, not the beginning.

For now we have salvation through faith, which is the hope of salvation.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1


We will receive, attain, see, obtain the salvation we are hoping for at the coming of the Lord and the resurrection of the dead in Christ.


Paul says it this way -

24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
Romans 8:24-25

• we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope;
• if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

We who have faith in Christ Jesus for salvation, are eagerly waiting for it with perseverance.


and again


so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

• To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

JLB

You mean to say that your act of believing earns salvation from God?

You mean to say that you chose the Lord and the Lord never chose you?

 

[JLB777]

You mean to say that your act of believing earns salvation from God?

You mean to say that you chose the Lord and the Lord never chose you?

I mean to say that it is those who obey the Gospel, that are saved.

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8


I mean to say it is those who obey God who will receive the Holy Spirit.

32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.” Acts 5:32



All the power and grace in the world will not saves us, unless we obey the Gospel.



JLB

 

[Si_monfaith]

I mean to say that it is those who obey the Gospel, that are saved.

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8


I mean to say it is those who obey God who will receive the Holy Spirit.

32 And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.” Acts 5:32



All the power and grace in the world will not saves us, unless we obey the Gospel.



JLB

1 Timothy 1: 14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

It is grace which causes faith. Without His grace there is no faith. Faith cannot be produced by man.

Without this faith no obedience is possible.

 

[JLB777]

1 Timothy 1: 14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

It is grace which causes faith. Without His grace there is no faith. Faith cannot be produced by man.

Without this faith no obedience is possible.

God speaking His word to us is what cause's faith.

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:16-17

• faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God

Faith works when we obey what God says, otherwise the faith we have received by hearing God is dead, and does not function, nor bring about the intended result.


That is how the law of faith works.


Faith without the corresponding action or work of obedience is dead, and can not save.


James says it this way -

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
James 2:21-22


Faith is incomplete, without the work of obedience, just like a body without the spirit is dead, being incomplete, and lifeless, not able to function or produce the will of God.


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26



This is why it is called the obedience of faith -

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith. Romans 16:26



JLB

 

[Si_monfaith]

God speaking His word to us is what cause's faith.

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:16-17

• faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God

Faith works when we obey what God says, otherwise the faith we have received by hearing God is dead, and does not function, nor bring about the intended result.


That is how the law of faith works.


Faith without the corresponding action or work of obedience is dead, and can not save.


James says it this way -

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
James 2:21-22


Faith is incomplete, without the work of obedience, just like a body without the spirit is dead, being incomplete, and lifeless, not able to function or produce the will of God.


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26



This is why it is called the obedience of faith -

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith. Romans 16:26



JLB

Only the elect have faith upon hearing. Isaiah 53: 1 is one good example.

Abraham was justified even before the Isaac sacrifice incident. Please check the book of Genesis.

 

[JLB777]

Only the elect have faith upon hearing. Isaiah 53: 1 is one good example.

Abraham was justified even before the Isaac sacrifice incident. Please check the book of Genesis.

The first time Abraham was justified was when he obeyed by faith what God spoke to him, which is a shadow and type of the Gospel message we obey by faith and are justified in like manner.

Faith comes to each of us when God speaks to us.

It is our choice whether or not to obey or not, like the example of Abraham.

Now the Lord had said to Abram:

“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

4 So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken to him, and Lot went with him. And Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.
Genesis 12:1-4


Paul teaches us this was our example from the old testament to follow as Abraham walked in the obedience of faith, by obeying the voice of the Lord, in which he turned from his old life to follow the Lord, as an act of repentance, leaving us an example of the obedience of faith, by demonstrating how justification by faith works.

8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:8-9


Paul was referencing Genesis 12, by quoting the passage “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”


3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
Genesis 12:3


This is why Paul teaches us that God has called all nations to the obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

• made known to all nations for the obedience of faith

Faith, without the corresponding act of obedience is dead.



JLB