The No-Straw-Man Calvinism challenge.

[Hammster]

There you go again, changing the topic/ question/ subject.

I never once, never at any time, never thought that God is not sovereign,

and never ever posted any such thing. Yes, you are being backed into a corner, so to speak, because previously you posted another error, and now another one.

If you care to bring it all out into the light, we can proceed. So far you quit before we get it all out in the open, but there is still hope you might want to this time.

Which error did I post? Please be specific.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

God always gets what He wants. He's sovereign.

This was your statement, directly quoted here.

Are you backing out/renigging/ of saying/posting this now ?

 

[Hammster]

This was your statement, directly quoted here.

Are you backing out/renigging/ of saying/posting this now ?

Why would I?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Says who? I say translators can be quite inspired. That is part of the process of getting the word to man, after all. So why not have Him watch over it?

They can also appear as "angels of light" seeking to destroy Christ's Church.

 

[Haipule]

Why not list all your Greek sources and give us a lesson in Greek here. Not that I don't think you know who your talking about, but sources in Greek would allow me to double check your logic.

No one can follow what you are saying from the Greek or verify it. Bible hub has a good Greek reference area.

Otherwise. Lay off the Greek if we can't verify it, because without verification you have not proven the words you posted are the ones in the Bible at all or even that you can understand or know Greek at all.

Do you have a computer? I see that you do. Go to biblehub then and pull up a verse. Press INTERlinear and pull up the Greek text. There you will have the Greek inflection code, as well as Thayer's/Strong's lexicons to study the Greek words. You can easily check me out! If you don't understand the inflection, you can Wikipedia grammatical terms.

My translations are my own built from a lifetime of study. The only reference I can give is my own Kindle eBook Wake Up Call: William McCoy

 

[Hammster]

Do you have a computer? I see that you do. Go to biblehub then and pull up a verse. Press INTERlinear and pull up the Greek text. There you will have the Greek inflection code, as well as Thayer's/Strong's lexicons to study the Greek words. You can easily check me out! If you don't understand the inflection, you can Wikipedia grammatical terms.

My translations are my own built from a lifetime of study. The only reference I can give is my own Kindle eBook Wake Up Call: William McCoy

Please, let's stay on topic.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Do you have a computer? I see that you do. Go to biblehub then and pull up a verse. Press INTERlinear and pull up the Greek text. There you will have the Greek inflection code, as well as Thayer's/Strong's lexicons to study the Greek words. You can easily check me out! If you don't understand the inflection, you can Wikipedia grammatical terms.

My translations are my own built from a lifetime of study. The only reference I can give is my own Kindle eBook Wake Up Call: William McCoy

If your going to use the Greek then you can link to the page so we can verify. Then we can easily look. And check.

Whatever your study. I always verify.

 

[Truthfrees]

This section might be helpful to at least start your questioning.

one foundational question from what i have read so far

is predestination the main tenet of calvinism?

is that what non-c's mainly oppose?

is this link basically the foundation for predestination?

God's sovereignty is the main tenet of Reformed Theology. The other issues would be concerned with how He gets the results He wants.

can you give me that link?

what are the other issues that follow sovereignty?

can you give me those links in order of importance?

The other issues would be spelled out in the links in the OP. Election, predestination, atonement, etc. are the issues in question.

I think the London Baptist one is the best out of the ones I linked to.

can you link it here again so that i can follow you step by step as you answer my questions

i don't want to hunt and search and discover later that i found the wrong link

i'd like to walk step by step through each answer you give to eliminate misunderstanding

The 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith

A straw man falsely identifies an opponent's position and then "corrects" that position.

Saying that Reformed Theology teaches that God forces someone to do/think/decide something is a straw man because there's no teaching like that in Reformed Theology.

can you describe in reformed theology words what God predestines in regards to each individual human - their behavior - their heart - their decisions - their salvation?

He predestines that those He loves will be conformed to the image of His Son.

so if i start with understanding the calvinist theology on sovereignty, i can then progress to - election - predestination - atonement?

the first link you gave me - chpt 10 of effectual calling - what is that - election?

which chapter do i read for sovereignty?

1689 LBC: Chapter 5: "Of Divine Providence"

1. which chapter is about election?
2. which chapter is about predestination?
3. which chapter is about atonement

i will study sovereignty, election, predestination, atonement once you give me the chapters and then i will get back to you

God bless you

Chapter 5 was on Sovereignty. Chapter 10 was on election.

which chapters are on predestination and atonement

I'll have to look. But in the mean time you can start with those.

1. An Introduction To Calvinism & Arminianism - Tim Challies
-Arminianism arose as a rejection of Calvinism and its doctrines of predestination and election. Arminius taught that God has given humans free will, and humans are able to freely choose or reject salvation.
-A Calvinist is someone who rejects the Arminian concept of free will, believing that the will of all humans is bound by their sinful nature and will remain bound until God performs His regenerative work.
-Calvinism is founded on the belief that man is completely and utterly unable to make a choice to follow God because the will of the unsaved person is bound by his sinful nature.
2. An Introduction To Calvinism & Arminianism (Part 2) - Tim Challies
- A proper understanding of Calvinism is fully dependant on understanding Calvin’s view of man’s depravity.
- A fallen man is able to choose to do what he wants, but is unable to want God. There is a misconception that Calvinists do not believe in human free will, but this is not true. Calvinism teaches that free will exists, but is bound by a man’s nature. Man is a slave not to God, but to his own nature. Because man does not want God, he can never choose Him. Only God, in His Sovereign free will, can change man’s nature and make him capable of repentance.
- T D - With a sinful nature it is impossible to take an action that would be anything other than sinful and rebellious.
- U E - God brings His chosen people, through the Spirit, to a willing acceptance of Christ. His choice has nothing to do with man’s free will.
- L A - Christ took the sins of the elect upon Himself on the cross. He provided a full and effectual (fully adequate) atonement for their sins. Though Christ’s sacrifice was sufficient for the entire human race, it is only imputed (given) to the elect. Were Christ to sacrifice and die for someone and then that person did not choose to be saved, it would make Christ’s work a failure.
- I G - There are two ways God calls people to repentance. The first is the outer call which is extended to anyone who hears the gospel. This can be and often is rejected. The second is the internal call which is extended only to the elect and can never be rejected.
- P S - The elect, then, will persevere in righteousness and will never fall away from God.
3. An Introduction To Calvinism & Arminianism (Part 3) - Tim Challies - errors/unreliable source
- FW - Arminius taught that man’s fall into sin has not completely removed his ability to make a choice for or against God. Holy Spirit does not draw or enlighten men enough to force them into a decision.
- CE - God’s election is based upon his foreknowledge that a person would choose to be saved.God in turn chose them and called them the elect.
- UA - When Christ died he took upon Himself every sin for every human being throughout time. Salvation can be received or rejected.
- OG - Holy Spirit does not force anyone into repentance. Regeneration occurs when salvation is accepted.
- FG - Man can change his mind and reject God after accepting Him?
4. An Introduction To Calvinism & Arminianism (Part 4) - Tim Challies - errors/unreliable

 

[Hammster]

If your going to use the Greek then you can link to the page so we can verify. Then we can easily look. And check.

Whatever your study. I always verify.

Please stay on topic.

 

[Hammster]

1. which chapter is about election?
2. which chapter is about predestination?
3. which chapter is about atonement

i will study sovereignty, election, predestination, atonement once you give me the chapters and then i will get back to you

God bless you

Chapter 5 was on Sovereignty. Chapter 10 was on election.

 

[dad]

Again, no straw men. Find something in the OP that supports this, and we'll talk.

Easy to do.

From one of your OP links....
"Chapter 2


Man now deprived of freedom of will, and miserably enslaved."

Looking at the chapter, I see this also..
"it is not without reason that Augustine so often repeats the well-known saying, that free will is more destroyed than established by its defenders (August. in Evang. Joann. Tract. 81). It was necessary to premise this much for the sake of some who, when they hear that human virtue is totally overthrown, in order that the power of God in man may be exalted, conceive an utter dislike to the whole subject, as if it were perilous, not to say superfluous, whereas it is manifestly both most necessary and most useful. ..."

Unless the guy is talking in circles and doesn't really think these things...the issue of free will is very much on topic and from the OP. Without real free choice we would be basically robots.

Even if the guy was somehow trying to say something else in a long winded way, (feel free to state his position simply and clearly if you like, if it is different) the issue is still topical.

 

[dad]

They can also appear as "angels of light" seeking to destroy Christ's Church.

Not if God is watching over things. Jesus verified Scripture was right. He promised to send His Spirit to help us get it right also later.

 

[dad]

If I wrote a note to my wife that said

Honey, I've run to the store. Be back later.

Love ya


and you happened upon it and read it, would you think it was to you, that I considered you worthy of a pet name, and I loved you?

Straw man argument. He wrote to us now, so we would not need to have letters conform to things as they were say 3000 years ago.

 

[Hammster]

Easy to do.

From one of your OP links....
"Chapter 2


Man now deprived of freedom of will, and miserably enslaved."

Looking at the chapter, I see this also..
"it is not without reason that Augustine so often repeats the well-known saying, that free will is more destroyed than established by its defenders (August. in Evang. Joann. Tract. 81). It was necessary to premise this much for the sake of some who, when they hear that human virtue is totally overthrown, in order that the power of God in man may be exalted, conceive an utter dislike to the whole subject, as if it were perilous, not to say superfluous, whereas it is manifestly both most necessary and most useful. ..."

Unless the guy is talking in circles and doesn't really think these things...the issue of free will is very much on topic and from the OP. Without real free choice we would be basically robots.

Where's the part that supports "If man was pre programmed and destined in advance Calvinist style then he would be like a robot"?

 

[Hammster]

Straw man argument. He wrote to us now, so we would not need to have letters conform to things as they were say 3000 years ago.

You asked for an explanation, so no straw man. And canon was closed nearly 2000 years ago.

 

[Truthfrees]

Chapter 5 was on Sovereignty. Chapter 10 was on election.

which chapters are on predestination and atonement

 

[dad]

Where's the part that supports "If man was pre programmed and destined in advance Calvinist style then he would be like a robot"?

Any part that deals in free will. If he claims we have none because of predestination, for example, then that is making us robots. If he says we do have some, then that makes us not predestined or robots or Calvinist!

 

[dad]

You asked for an explanation, so no straw man. And canon was closed nearly 2000 years ago.

So what? The bible was written for TODAY.

 

[Hammster]

which chapters are on predestination and atonement

I'll have to look. But in the mean time you can start with those.

 

[Hammster]

Any part that deals in free will. If he claims we have none because of predestination, for example, then that is making us robots. If he says we do have some, then that makes us not predestined or robots or Calvinist!

Fair enough. Then it should be easy to show where Reformed Theology teaches that we have no free will because of predestination.