The No-Straw-Man Calvinism challenge.

[Hammster]

"He came to HIS OWN - and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:11

"Jerusalem how I WANTED to spare your children... but YOU would not" Matt 23

"I forgave you all that debt... turn him over to the torturers... so shall My Father do to each one of you if you do not forgive each one his brother from his heart" Matthew 18

Romans 11
" 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


less Calvinism ... more Bible

Less out-of-context verses...more whole bible.

 

[Hammster]

Indeed - not a thing if He is "willing that all should perish"

Thankfully He's not.

 

[BobRyan]

Thankfully He's not.

Indeed "Not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" 2Peter 3

Which is why "God sent His Son to be the Savior of the World" 1 John 4:14

Even so... "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11

 

[BobRyan]

"He came to HIS OWN - and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:11

"Jerusalem how I WANTED to spare your children... but YOU would not" Matt 23

"I forgave you all that debt... turn him over to the torturers... so shall My Father do to each one of you if you do not forgive each one his brother from his heart" Matthew 18

Romans 11
" 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


less Calvinism ... more Bible

Less out-of-context verses...more whole bible.

Good news then - is that in your post you have no Bible out of context... the "no Bible" posts are good that way.

Meanwhile -- back to the actual Bible -

Romans 11
" 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

 

[BobRyan]

So your argument against Calvinism is....?

The Bible

 

[Hammster]

Indeed "Not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" 2Peter 3

Which is why "God sent His Son to be the Savior of the World" 1 John 4:14

Even so... "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11

More out of context proof texts. How does doing that prove anything?

 

[Hammster]

The Bible

Are you a sock of that member?

 

[Hammster]

Good news then - is that in your post you have no Bible out of context... the "no Bible" posts are good that way.

Meanwhile -- back to the actual Bible -

Romans 11
" 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Good passage.

 

[dad]

Ephesians 2:8a: tE gar chariti este sesOsmenoi dia pisteOs

For(assigning a reason) to-thee(locative--indirect object of the verb/not translated) thriving-joy(this location) you-all-are(the verb--Paul did not include himself) ones-having-been-being-delivered through(means) [anarthrous--the character and nature]of-trust, Ephesians 2:8a

Ephesians 2:10a--For(assigning a reason) we-are(Paul and the ones with him--he did not include the Ephesians or us) [character and nature of]workmanship...

Paul is establishing a here and now 24/7 deliverance, not a completed state of "saved" as if the perfect passive participle is a noun.

Not sure what you are quibbling about, but since it seems off topic, guess it doesn't matter. Or does this relate to something Calvinist? My opinion is that a translation can be also inspired. If it doesn't seem to fit what you like in the Greek, maybe it is better. Be happy.

 

[dad]

No, most don't think that.

You may be right.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I wonder if the Calvinists think that some people were pre destined to not be able to chose God?

Actually, that's an Arminian/Pelagian concept.

In their view, God created people who He know would never choose Him, yet, He created them anyway.

 

[dad]

I was talking more about ppl who grew up going to church or following God and in their minds default to Jesus out of having experiences throughout life rather than making a concrete choice to choose God.

Does that make sense

Hmmm. Well, I guess the main decision that matters in relation to salvation is the one that counts. Sincerely coming to him. If, after that we drift a bit sometime well, I don't know if that is like the cons who never came at all in heart.

 

[dad]

Actually, that's an Arminian/Pelagian concept.

In their view, God created people who He know would never choose Him, yet, He created them anyway.

OK. However in the example I gave earlier of Calvinist thinking, the people who never quite endured to the end in Revelation were supposedly not really saved to begin with, that is why they never endured. That seems similar to not being able to by some predestination reason.

 

[dad]

This is getting more and more ridiculous.

Israel was called, "God's chosen people". Was that because Israel chose Him?

To those who minimize or belittle our amazing power to really chose, and who cannot accept that choosing Jesus makes us HIS chosen people, I say.. phooey.

 

[ToBeLoved]

"He came to HIS OWN - and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:11

"Jerusalem how I WANTED to spare your children... but YOU would not" Matt 23

"I forgave you all that debt... turn him over to the torturers... so shall My Father do to each one of you if you do not forgive each one his brother from his heart" Matthew 18

Romans 11
" 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


less Calvinism ... more Bible

Good verses. Check mate.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Hmmm. Well, I guess the main decision that matters in relation to salvation is the one that counts. Sincerely coming to him. If, after that we drift a bit sometime well, I don't know if that is like the cons who never came at all in heart.

It was in reference to the verse where ppl when they stand before God will say
All they have done for God.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

To those who minimize or belittle our amazing power to really chose, and who cannot accept that choosing Jesus makes us HIS chosen people, I say.. phooey.

Tell it to Webster.



SINCE 1828

chosen

1. : one who is the object of choice or of divine favor : an elect person
   

 

[Hammster]

Good verses. Check mate.

If you aren't concerned with context, sure.

Btw, are you ever going to address the OP, or just troll the thread?

 

[dad]

It was in reference to the verse where ppl when they stand before God will say
All they have done for God.

Right. But the ones there were cons and not right in the heart, and never really chose Jesus. They were not saved. Otherwise they would never be cast away.

 

[Hammster]

Right. But the ones there were cons and not right in the heart, and never really chose Jesus. They were not saved. Otherwise they would never be cast away.

Nobody said or implied they were saved. But they certainly thought they were.