The Nicene Creed - line by line

[~Anastasia~]

Yes, i suggested that we start a new thread but we still managed to get off topic. My apologies.

I think that's a good idea. Your questions are worth discussing. I was looking for a source for something for you, but am not finding what I am confident as being reliable.

Since it's your question, why don't you begin the thread? You may post a link to it here, if you like, to direct the conversation over to your thread.

 

[Albion]

I understand, which is why I didn't mention anything calling his motives into question. It's actually something I try not to promote, as I greatly respect the Lutherans and their theology.

My point was that Restoremysoul seems to be saying that the existence of the Church relied upon possession of the complete Canon. Given the fluidity of the Canon, that seems most unreasonable.

I thought of mentioning possible underground Churches in places that are closed to the Gospel, and the situations where they possess sometimes a very limited portion of the Bible. I would not say these believers were not part of the Church, even if they live out their lives never knowing of the existence of the Book of Revelation.

Well, those were just passing thoughts of mine that I felt were worth mentioning, but nothing special.

I agree with you that there is no reason that the church couldn't have been all that we think it to have been, even before the last book that was later accepted as part of the canon was written.

 

[Albion]

duplication

 

[~Anastasia~]

Perhaps we can resume the Creed.

I believe in one God,
Father Almighty, Creator of
heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It was previously stated that the the Byzantine Rite was an umbrella term that covered both RC and EC, and that the Byzantine Rite did not acquire the book of revelation until well after the first century. But if in fact they were the first church they would have already had it in the very beginning, in the 1st century.

Please, correct any errors in my understanding.

The Byzantine rites within the Catholic Church are not "Roman" so your naming convention is in error. "Roman" refers to the rite within the Catholic Church that uses the Roman Missal for the mass. Byzantine Catholics do not use the Roman Missal. I hope that clarifies matters a little and I hope it helps you to understand why Catholics refer to the Catholic Church as the Catholic Church rather than as "Roman Catholic".

The Byzantine rites within the Catholic Church did not exist before the time when the liturgy of saints Basil and John Chrysostom were in use. Byzantium was only a small town until the fourth century AD. By that time Revelation was known to the Byzantine rites, but it was not used in their liturgical readings from the scriptures. There appears to have been doubt about the authorship and the apostolic authority of the book. Those doubts were not cleared away until several centuries after the Revelation was written. So your assertion that the Byzantine rite churches had the Revelation in the first century is not correct, since the distinct "Byzantine rites" really didn't exist in the first century AD - though their foundations did exist in the first century. So your conclusion about the first century Byzantine rite church had the Revelation is not correct.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

wow didn't understand a word of that.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Perhaps we can resume the Creed.

I believe in one God,
Father Almighty, Creator of
heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

I almost don't like posting my thoughts, because everyone comes along with so much better ones.

But since it was my idea, I'll go first if I have to.



I almost separated the phrase "Father Almighty", because it brings out two very important words. It is through Christ Jesus that we know God as our Father. I can especially appreciate that He is no longer as we might see Him through only the lens of the Old Testament - like those with Moses, I think we would all be too afraid and want someone else to stand before Him for us! Instead though, we can call Him Father (and Jesus said we can pray to Him as "ABBA" even), which is a more intimate and personal term even.

And of course He is the Almighty. We can never forget that either. The One Who not only has all power, but is the very source of all power and everything else.

Which leads into Him as Creator. It's difficult to imagine "nothing" before He created, and there was only God Himself. But being true to His nature, He did create, heaven and earth - the entire universe (I want to check and see if the Greek doesn't actually mean that?).

All things visible and invisible is interesting. I have some thoughts, but I'm sure there are better answers than I can give. I wonder does this refer to God as Creator of both the material and the spiritual reality?

 

[Restoresmysoul]

Since it's your question, why don't you begin the thread? You may post a link to it here, if you like, to direct the conversation over to your thread.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7844496/#post66400386

 

[MoreCoffee]

wow didn't understand a word of that.

It's all English

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

It's all English

I'll have to do a little cueing up on that

 

[Restoresmysoul]

It's all English

The Lord and His Apostles didn't talk like that. Often such vocabulary edifies no one but the one speaking, much like speaking in tongues. Please go to the thread i started and dumb it down for me, enlighten me. Thank you

 

[Restoresmysoul]

The NT was written in a common form of the ancient Greek language which was spoken by the majority of people. It could have been written in a more advanced style vocabulary but it wasn't, so the apostles most likely spoke like a regular person, although educated.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

I'm not promoting Luther, please dont take me wrong. Im only focused on the book of revelation, and when the RCC acquired it. I'm trying to understand if they had it in the first century

It was first sent to the Eastern churches listed in the letter. I'm sure copies were made later but at first it seems to be addressed to those seven specifically and the letter did not instruct those seven to send out copies to those it was not addressed to. I'm not sure when it made it's way to Rome.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

Perhaps we can resume the Creed.

I believe in one God,
Father Almighty, Creator of
heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

The beginning of explaining who the one God we believing in is in our limited capability. God the Creator.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I'm not promoting Luther, please dont take me wrong. Im only focused on the book of revelation, and when the RCC acquired it. I'm trying to understand if they had it in the first century

Where and when did you get the book of revelation?

 

[Restoresmysoul]

Where and when did you get the book of revelation?

I bought it at the book store.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

Why do we call him Father?

He is said to be creator in the creed, the creator of heaven and earth and of things that are invisible to human eyes as well as things that human eyes can see. But we start by calling him Father.

Christians in the fourth century knew God as their Father because they were brothers of Jesus Christ. Because they knew something fundamental had changed when Jesus came into the world and when he rose again. So, why do you call him Father?

Among the pagans important kings and emperors were called sons (or daughters) of a specific pagan God. But there is something subversive about a slave or a tent maker being a son or daughter of God.

We believe in one God, the Father almighty ... The Father who created all things. Even emperors. Not just things created long ago and left to themselves. The Father almighty created everything that exists now as well as everything that existed before and everything that will exist in days to come. Things we can see now, things we've heard about in the past but cannot see any longer, and things that do not yet exist. This is our Father, the one who creates everything. The Father who gives life and being to us all - even to the emperor who sits enthroned at the head of the council in silks and gold and jewels. He too owes his existence to the Father who is willing to call a slave his son and a servant women his daughter.

I wonder how well emperor Constantine understood what kind of God we believe in.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I bought it at the book store.

So, you didn't have it in the first century eh?

 

[Restoresmysoul]

So, you didn't have it in the first century eh?

No but my Church did.

 

[MoreCoffee]

No but my Church did.

I do not believe that