The Nicene Creed in Overview

[Philip_B]

Most Sundays and Holy Days we stand and together affirm the faith of the Church in the words of the Nicene Creed.

If we can summarise and highlight the layout of the Creed in some ways it helps us understand the meaning, so here goes in overview:

1. We believe in One God
   • The Father ....
   • The Son ....
   • The Holy Spirit ....
2. We believe in One .... Church
3. We acknowledge One Baptism ....
4. We look for the resurrection of the dead ....

It seems to me that some of the layout/rendition in contemporary liturgy does not always make that clear, and opts for shorter statements which seems lose some of the integrity of the big statement.

Sometimes it reads more like three independent belief statements, rather the original which I believe intended us to understand the Trinity as an expression of the unity of God.

I am not looking for an argument, however I am interested in what people think. The Church in which I find my home uses the ELLC texts which can be found on this link. http://englishtexts.org/Portals/11/Assets/praying.pdf

 

[~Anastasia~]

Most Sundays and Holy Days we stand and together affirm the faith of the Church in the words of the Nicene Creed.

If we can summarise and highlight the layout of the Creed in some ways it helps us understand the meaning, so here goes in overview:

1. We believe in One God
   • The Father ....
   • The Son ....
   • The Holy Spirit ....
2. We believe in One .... Church
3. We acknowledge One Baptism ....
4. We look for the resurrection of the dead ....

It seems to me that some of the layout/rendition in contemporary liturgy does not always make that clear, and opts for shorter statements which seems lose some of the integrity of the big statement.

Sometimes it reads more like three independent belief statements, rather the original which I believe intended us to understand the Trinity as an expression of the unity of God.

I am not looking for an argument, however I am interested in what people think. The Church in which I find my home uses the ELLC texts which can be found on this link. http://englishtexts.org/Portals/11/Assets/praying.pdf

I don't have much to add, except that your overview is pretty much exactly how we understand it as well.

I've thought perhaps that can get a little lost sometimes because different Persons of the Holy Trinity need differing amounts of clarification, but that more reflects the particular heresies that arose.

 

[dad]

Most Sundays and Holy Days we stand and together affirm the faith of the Church in the words of the Nicene Creed.

If we can summarise and highlight the layout of the Creed in some ways it helps us understand the meaning, so here goes in overview:

1. We believe in One God
   • The Father ....
   • The Son ....
   • The Holy Spirit ....
2. We believe in One .... Church
3. We acknowledge One Baptism ....
4. We look for the resurrection of the dead ....

1. You omitted creator of all things.

 

[~Anastasia~]

1. You omitted creator of all things.

It's in there. As is the Incarnation, Crucifixion, Resurrection, Ascension, etc.

I understood our friend to be making a point with the outline of the statements of belief.

 

[dad]

It's in there. As is the Incarnation, Crucifixion, Resurrection, Ascension, etc.

I understood our friend to be making a point with the outline of the statements of belief.

OK. I just think that the part about creation in there makes it impossible to claim it is talking about some evolution of life. So..if I see some folks trying to claim they follow the creed, without that bit, it becomes hypocritical.

 

[Philip_B]

Hi, I am not suggesting altering the creed, but asking the question. The ... is the detail, and I was looking at the framework. My concern is that the contemporary translation we use has opted for shorter sentences, and I worry that we lose the integrity of the Theology of the Holy Trinity, in some sense seeming to become three belief statements, not one cohesive statement.

I am not for one moment suggesting that we loose the doctrinal importance of matters like Creator of all Things, Incarnation, Crucifixion, Ascension, however my concern is what we understand to be the the very of the Holy Trinity.

In relation to the Father the ELLC text reads

the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.​

 

[Halbhh]

Most Sundays and Holy Days we stand and together affirm the faith of the Church in the words of the Nicene Creed.

If we can summarise and highlight the layout of the Creed in some ways it helps us understand the meaning, so here goes in overview:

1. We believe in One God
   • The Father ....
   • The Son ....
   • The Holy Spirit ....
2. We believe in One .... Church
3. We acknowledge One Baptism ....
4. We look for the resurrection of the dead ....

It seems to me that some of the layout/rendition in contemporary liturgy does not always make that clear, and opts for shorter statements which seems lose some of the integrity of the big statement.

Sometimes it reads more like three independent belief statements, rather the original which I believe intended us to understand the Trinity as an expression of the unity of God.

I am not looking for an argument, however I am interested in what people think. The Church in which I find my home uses the ELLC texts which can be found on this link. http://englishtexts.org/Portals/11/Assets/praying.pdf

It seems good to me to out loud with your own voice, as a member in the congregation to confess your faith, aloud, in Christ --

"We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father...."

This is good -- the out loud saying of your belief.

But to do it each Sunday seems very often, and then I'm concerned about the effect of making people feel they've already done their reading, and then some might be satisfied to not hear any reading from the gospel. But we know from the Gospel of John, for example, that we must actually dwell in Christ's Words, in order to abide in Him.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Hi, I am not suggesting altering the creed, but asking the question. The ... is the detail, and I was looking at the framework. My concern is that the contemporary translation we use has opted for shorter sentences, and I worry that we lose the integrity of the Theology of the Holy Trinity, in some sense seeming to become three belief statements, not one cohesive statement.

I am not for one moment suggesting that we loose the doctrinal importance of matters like Creator of all Things, Incarnation, Crucifixion, Ascension, however my concern is what we understand to be the the very of the Holy Trinity.

In relation to the Father the ELLC text reads

the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.​

Maybe you could post the way your congregation reads it (the whole thing)?

I know with translations and all, it gets changed just a little. We read the Greek first, then the translation. It comes as a long statement from us (the translation in English) but the breaks are so clear, I think they are easily discerned when we read it.

 

[Philip_B]

We believe in one God,

the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.​

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,

the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.

For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.​

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.​

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,

who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.​

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
​

I am pretty sure that is how we render it, - though I might add I personally do not include the filioque.

 

[~Anastasia~]

(My intent is not to compare translations of the Creed, btw.)

Yours seems to adhere very much to the outline you gave. In reading it, there are some minor differences of expression compared to the way we read it, that may make yours a bit easier to understand as representing those headings. I'll type ours too, so you can compare if you wish, if it gives you a basis to think about.

But even so, as I said, I very much began to understand it according to your outline. I had to think my way to that understanding, but it wasn't difficult. IMO it's still very much implied, even in structuring it with longer paragraphs.

In English, we say ...

I believe in One God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages, light of light, true God of true God, begotten not created, of one Essence with the Father, through whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man. He was crucified for us under Pontus Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and He rose on the third day, according to the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father, and He will come again with glory to judge the living and the dead. His Kingdom shall have no end.

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life, who proceeds from the Father, who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke through the prophets.

And in one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

I confess one baptism for the remission of sins, and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to come. Amen.


We don't repeat the I/we believe, just add "and" so I think yours is a bit more direct in the sense of pointing to your outline. I haven't studied it out, but I would guess ours is most concerned with the Greek.

 

[hedrick]

The outline in the OP somewhat deemphasizes the overall trinitarian structure of the creed.

 

[~Anastasia~]

The outline in the OP somewhat deemphasizes the overall trinitarian structure of the creed.

How so?

Not disagreeing, sincerely curious why you think so? Maybe I've missed something?

 

[hedrick]

How so?

Not disagreeing, sincerely curious why you think so? Maybe I've missed something?

By making God, Church, Baptism and Resurrection into separate sections, the creed no longer has a trinitarian structure. Only the first of 4 sections has that structure. And the last 3 sections are one phrase each.

Historically, the whole section after "and in the Holy Ghost" was added at the same time, in the 381 version. I think it's pretty clear it's all one section, about the Spirit's presence with us.

 

[~Anastasia~]

By making God, Church, Baptism and Resurrection into separate sections, the creed no longer has a trinitarian structure. Only the first of 4 sections has that structure. And the last 3 sections are one phrase each.

Historically, the whole section after "and in the Holy Ghost" was added at the same time, in the 381 version. I think it's pretty clear it's all one section, about the Spirit's presence with us.

Interesting, thank you. That last section was kind of a confusion to me in that sense.

I didn't like making the Church a 4th "I believe" on par with the Holy Trinity. But it seemed (to me) to form a new grouping if 3 - Church, baptism, resurrection/life.

I do see what you mean. Thank you. I'm going to have to look at our Greek texts a little more closely and see if that's apparent in the way they read them. My Greek is coming along very slowly.

 

[Philip_B]

google-site-verification=lIp2yF9GPoCiLHsQzcCIcg7lgxGdVNvGlBGuc-xdoh4
It is most certainly not the intent was to de-emphasise the Trinity, but perhaps the stress that out belief in the Three Persons of the Holy Trinity is indeed part of our belief in One God.

I think the ELLC text says it all, and I am not calling it out for heresy or anything, but with so many shorter sentences I worry that it has lost a little of the structure.

I also do think that it is important that we believe in One God (Father Son and Holy Spirit), One Church and One Baptism (3X1) and live in hope of the resurrection.

On balance I think I prefer rendition provided by @~Anastasia~ where the critical statements of belief in the Lord and the Holy Spirit are 'and' statements, so we do not choose the bits of the Trinity we want as if it is an option package for a Ford. I understand that the contemporary idiom is for short simple sentences, but I am not sure it is always the best solution.

 

[dzheremi]

@~Anastasia~, do you know why the Eastern Orthodox recite the Creed in the singular?

The OO tradition is to recite it in the plural, so I'm just curious.

 

[~Anastasia~]

@~Anastasia~, do you know why the Eastern Orthodox recite the Creed in the singular?

The OO tradition is to recite it in the plural, so I'm just curious.

As I read the other version, and remembered the fact that we pray the OUR Father (it would be a great heresy to change it to "my Father) ... I wondered that myself.

I haven't had the chance to find out, but I'm glad you asked. I will post here when I do.

And it is a most solemn recitation, that all make together. So yes, I wonder ...

 

[Philip_B]

It may have to do with where the Creed in placed in the liturgy. My Church follows the custom enjoined by the Council of Frankfurt C798 - namely after the Gospel/Sermon. I think the Eastern practice is that it is immediately before the anaphora (Lift up your hearts). I would be interested where in the OO Liturgy it occurs.

 

[~Anastasia~]

@~Anastasia~, do you know why the Eastern Orthodox recite the Creed in the singular?

The OO tradition is to recite it in the plural, so I'm just curious.

From what I've found on canonical Orthodox sites, it is because of the original use of creeds being a statement of belief before baptism, when the person would state what they believed before being baptized. Further, the faithful individual is said to renew (in a sense) their baptism at each Divine Liturgy, and so it is the only use during the entire Liturgy when we say "I".

I was actually not aware of this. They also present the Creed itself in the "We believe" form.

I'm not sure if there is more to know. Interesting ...

 

[~Anastasia~]

It may have to do with where the Creed in placed in the liturgy. My Church follows the custom enjoined by the Council of Frankfurt C798 - namely after the Gospel/Sermon. I think the Eastern practice is that it is immediately before the anaphora (Lift up your hearts). I would be interested where in the OO Liturgy it occurs.

And this is correct - just before the anaphora.

What interests me is that the priest censes the gifts (bread and wine) using a cloth while the Creed is recited. I've wanted to learn more about that as well.