The New New Jerusalem Thread

[Interplanner]

Gottservant,
I guess you're speaking to me. I have no idea what the building of Israel by the nations refers to.

In the NT use of OT passages about the "Israel" that includes the islands and distant shores, that is a set up for the Gospel's work. God has made many who were 'not his people' to be 'his people' in the Gospel.

 

[Gottservant]

Gottservant,
I guess you're speaking to me. I have no idea what the building of Israel by the nations refers to.

In the NT use of OT passages about the "Israel" that includes the islands and distant shores, that is a set up for the Gospel's work. God has made many who were 'not his people' to be 'his people' in the Gospel.

Sorry, I tend to see threads as a conversation between the OP and interested parties - I should have quoted the OP or mentioned it.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

No one understands the mystery that you do, you have a vestige of the Holy Spirit.So let me challenge you to understand this, the building of Israel by the nations of the world will happen twice.
Why will it happen the second time?

Not really sure what you are trying to say. I am guessing in saying this but also like to watch people freak out when I say it.

It is kind of difficult to know the very tiny tiny tiny number of prophecies in the OT that are referring to the modern nation of Israel. The reason for this is that all the major prophecies are referring to the people of faith of all nations who in fact are the true children of Abraham. ( Gal. 3: 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.) So, I know there are, or at least must be a few prophecies regarding the modern nation of Israel but I don't know which ones they are because most of them, no matter what the insistence of dispensationilists, are referring to the people of faith through Christ both Jew and Gentile. The couple of dozen OT chapters about the New Jerusalem are a perfect example of this.

Here however is the main prophecy that the founding of the modern nation of Israel is at least a partial fulfillment of. It is from Paul and my guess is he got it from the OT. I am going to interpret it also and some will freak.
Romans 13: 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved......(Verse 26 refers to those of faith of all nations in case anyone is wondering- Chapt. 6:... For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed) Back to chapter 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Now here is the interpretation. The fullness of the Gentiles coming in is referring to the time when enough Gentiles get saved and through their influence nations get founded on Biblical principle. (Like the USA) This according to Bible prophecy would not start happening till after the fall of the Roman Empire in 1453 AD. When peoples sufficiently come under the influence of Biblical principle, they would begin to show mercy to the physical descendants of Abraham. Modern Israel is a manifestation of that. What better way to show mercy to a demonically persecuted people than by supporting them having their own nation and being able to defend themselves against Satan's genocidal minions. Beyond this we are also seeing a great outreach to the nation with the Gospel. Many millions will be saved I think.

Now if you were referring to my claim about my understanding of " The Mystery." Test the claim by reading the referenced article. don't just assume it is a sinfully proud and idle boast. Copy and paste: "Wordservice, Bible Symbolism in Genesis"

 

[keras]

Daniel, you will be happy to know that I agree with your post above.
With Romans 13:25, it is confusing because Paul is talking about 2 Israel's. First the Israel of the Jews, of which he was one. Then the Israel of the end times, that is: all who believe in Jesus and obey Him, will be saved.
Saved from what? Revelation 7 tells us. 'They are those who have passed through the great ordeal....' That 'ordeal', [Gr. thiplis, often translated as 'tribulation] is not the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, to come later, but the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster as the actual sequence of Revelation shows. Then comes the time gap of the Seventh Seal.
The current inhabitants of all the holy Land face judgement and only a remnant will be saved. Ezekiel 20:45-48, 21:1-7, Isaiah 6:13

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

I see, so it's a Roman empire, but just happens to be operated remotely. I know of no western civilization historian who goes with your theory but you're welcome to provide quotes.
As for the "no one has ever mentioned it" I mean in 2 years here, no one has mentioned anything like it even illustratively.

I can't link yet so you'll have to copy and paste:
A timeline of the Roman empire - Piero Scaruffi's
Roman Empire Timeline - Soft Schools
Roman Empire -- Ancient History Encyclopedia
Rome and Romania, 27 BC-1453 AD - Romanity


I could post more but allow me to explain some things. If you search it you'll see lots of different dates for the end of the Roman Empire. The reason for that is the perspective of the person looking at it. My perspective is based on scripture and let me give you an example. If you search for a timeline of the Greek Empire you'll get different dates also. Many historians based on their perspective would not call the four kingdoms that arose out of Alexanders Empire the Greek Empire. Yet Bible prophecy from it's perspective does by the illustration of the leopard with four wings and the goat with four horns. It also prophesied the first Roman emperors conquering of the last piece of the Greek Empire, the Egyptian quarter in Daniel 11.

Whether you know it or not your the one hard pressed to explain what you seem to think is some myth that Constantine moved the Capitol of the Roman Empire to Constantinople in 333 AD and that it was never conquered until 1453 AD. They certainly considered themselves to be the Roman empire whether you like the idea or not. For your further info the emperor who came to the throne in 193 AD was an African. He is a key figure in Bible prophecy. His son the next emperor considered a black African by many made all people of all nations under the dominion of the empire, except slaves, Roman citizens. Quite a bit different than NT days yes? It was at that point that being an Italian ceased to be a factor in qualifications for emperorship. It was whoever could get the throne by any means and any nationality who could get the throne were now the emperors. So calling the Roman Empire an Italian only club in history is ignorance. Further, as I stated the lamb with two horns that speaks as a dragon is a prophecy of the Roman empire voluntarily splitting into an eastern and western branch.

As for the "no one has ever mentioned it" I mean in 2 years here, no one has mentioned anything like it even illustratively.

So? No one on here has any idea that the Bible prophesies that date seven times either. Unless they've read my article on it.

So it is quite difficult to go with your nominal Roman or is it nominal Christian empire theory.

Who said anything about a "Christian" empire.The imperial church of the Roman empire and then later the imperial churches of the kings of Europe were instruments of the emperor to further the interests of the emperor. The Bible says is was Satan that was the true force behind said empire and they in fact did war against the saints for 1400 years and overcame them.

You might not have noticed that the harlot is devoured by the beast and then the wedding takes place. That's an interesting picture of NT times!

If I recall correctly it says the ten kings hate the harlot and seek her destruction. One might think that to be Jerusalem but Jerusalem doesn't rein over the kings of the earth and the Harlot has Babylon mystery religion on her for a reason which I'm not going into on this thread. No full preterist views in this section remember,

there are 2500 uses of the OT by the NT and none of them are "prophecy" as you are using it to extend into detail about 1453 etc. It is either about events in Judea in the 1st century or worldwide things about the judgement of God in the distance, although at first the final judgement was thought to be right after the DofJ.

The prophecies about the end of the first covenant age and the destruction of Jerusalem are about the end of the first covenant age and the destruction of Jerusalem.
The prophecies about the age of the four Gentile empires that ruled over the saints and its destruction or end are about the age of the four Gentile empires and its destruction and end.
And guess what the prophesies about the destruction of nations and peoples who seek to stop or reverse the growth of the government of God in this age are about the destruction of those nations. Gog and Magog are the illustrations of those nations past present and future.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Daniel, you will be happy to know that I agree with your post above.
With Romans 13:25, it is confusing because Paul is talking about 2 Israel's. First the Israel of the Jews, of which he was one. Then the Israel of the end times, that is: all who believe in Jesus and obey Him, will be saved.
Saved from what? Revelation 7 tells us. 'They are those who have passed through the great ordeal....' That 'ordeal', [Gr. thiplis, often translated as 'tribulation] is not the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, to come later, but the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster as the actual sequence of Revelation shows. Then comes the time gap of the Seventh Seal.
The current inhabitants of all the holy Land face judgement and only a remnant will be saved. Ezekiel 20:45-48, 21:1-7, Isaiah 6:13

I think you do sort of do Keras. I view the believers, Jew and Gentile of the New Covenant age not as a "second" Israel or having "replaced" Israel but rather as the Israel God always had in mind. All the way back from the book of Genesis this is prophesied multiple times in multiple ways.

As far as the sixth seal of Revelation. I am pretty confident i have proven that to be the destruction of Jerusalem and after that, before the seventh seal are the saints murdered by Rome.The seventh seal are the judgments against the city of Rome ending with the third time the city was conquered and this time depopulated, (the three woes.) This was during Emperor Justinian's reign. Keeping in mind that the capitol of the empire had been in Constantinople now for hundreds of years.

 

[Danoh]

Romans THIRTEEN 25? That's now two confusions about Romans ELEVEN 25 - this state of Israel notion, and that the passage is in chapter thirteen.

 

[keras]

I think you do sort of do Keras. I view the believers, Jew and Gentile of the New Covenant age not as a "second" Israel or having "replaced" Israel but rather as the Israel God always had in mind. All the way back from the book of Genesis this is prophesied multiple times in multiple ways.

As far as the sixth seal of Revelation. I am pretty confident i have proven that to be the destruction of Jerusalem and after that, before the seventh seal are the saints murdered by Rome.The seventh seal are the judgments against the city of Rome ending with the third time the city was conquered and this time depopulated, (the three woes.) This was during Emperor Justinian's reign. Keeping in mind that the capitol of the empire had been in Constantinople now for hundreds of years.

Yes, God's plan is to have a people, His elect, who will be the true righteous Israel and will live in all of the holy Land, as originally intended. They will be 'from every race, tribe and language'. Rev 7:9
Re the Sixth Seal; to say that just affects J,lem, means you haven't read Rev 6:12-17 properly. Pretty clear this is telling about a worldwide event. There are many other prophesies that parallel it; Isaiah 34:2-4, 2 Peter 3:10, etc.
The Seventh Seal against Rome? And is fulfilled? Pure theory and surmise.

Sorry Danoh, typo- not Rom 13, no verse 25 in that chapter!

 

[Interplanner]

Good point about the universal appeal of the original Israel, Daniel. Stay with that and pay especial attention to what gets said in Rom 4, 9, Eph 3, Gal 3 and you'll soon be with Paul, seeing the mistake that 2P2P/Judaism/futurism is in Gal 3:17, replacing the Promised Gospel with the Law. That's the bewitching of 3:1. (To put under a hex). Paul's career was to correct this mistake, to get rid of such replacement theology.

The Gospel always was for all people, and always was all the Promise to Israel. Their land sometimes pictured it, but Heb 11 says they didn't think the land was the fulfillment.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Yes, God's plan is to have a people, His elect, who will be the true righteous Israel and will live in all of the holy Land, as originally intended. They will be 'from every race, tribe and language'. Rev 7:9
Re the Sixth Seal; to say that just affects J,lem, means you haven't read Rev 6:12-17 properly. Pretty clear this is telling about a worldwide event. There are many other prophesies that parallel it; Isaiah 34:2-4, 2 Peter 3:10, etc.
The Seventh Seal against Rome? And is fulfilled? Pure theory and surmise

Keras,
If this happens as you say it does: 12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Then all life on planet earth immediately ceases to exist. We are not just talking dead, we are talking atomized with no trace of anything. Yet we see lots of life in the following verses. No, These are prophecies of actual events that use pictorial illustrations to prophesy said events. In fact these particular events have dates attached to them if you know where to look and they are prophecies of exactly what I said they are.

 

[keras]

Daniel, as I have posted many times, a Coronal Mass Ejection WILL literally fulfil all the graphic prophesies about the Day of the Lord's wrath.
A massive CME will cause terrible devastation and deaths, but it soon passes and those who have found shelter in the 'mountains and caves', will survive. But the good news is the Lord promises protection for all 'who call upon His Name'. Psalm 23:4, Isaiah 43:2b

 

[Interplanner]

There won't be anything happening on earth after a CME.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Daniel, as I have posted many times, a Coronal Mass Ejection WILL literally fulfil all the graphic prophesies about the Day of the Lord's wrath.
A massive CME will cause terrible devastation and deaths, but it soon passes and those who have found shelter in the 'mountains and caves', will survive. But the good news is the Lord promises protection for all 'who call upon His Name'. Psalm 23:4, Isaiah 43:2b

Your not realizing what you are doing. You just stated that the verse I just listed is a prophecy that uses pictorial illustrations to describe a 'Coronal Mass Ejection." You have no proof anywhere outside of your own imagination that this is what that prophecy is illustrating. You just threw out your supposed "literalisim" just like every other dispensationilist or futurist does when it doesn't suit their purposes.
Again I say that scripture has a date attached to it in the Bible. it is also already interpreted by the Bible. You however insist on your own private interpretation.
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

 

[Interplanner]

Having a date would just be your imagination, Daniel M.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Having a date would just be your imagination, Daniel M.

Can't really blame you for saying that. I could just outright tell you but for right now I just choose to not to. That is unless you willing to read my article on end time prophecy and see it in there. It's there all right and blows peoples minds and gives great glory to God for his Word. How he could give the date of the end of the 4th empire and that age when those four empires in Daniel and Revelation ruled over and oppressed the saints over two thousand years before it happened is pretty amazing. Every bit as mind blowingly accurate as the date of the messiahs appearance and the destruction of Jerusalem. Every bit as accurate as the kings of the Greek Empire that secularists say is written after the fact and not as prophecy because it is so accurate. Every bit as accurate as the date and nature of Herod's reign and Octavian's conquering of Egypt in Daniel 11.
I will be posting all the places that date is on this forum later on down the road. PS, last guy that that said to me. A pastor and writer for very large publications got very publicly embarrassed. His fault, he kept telling people I was full of it and there are no such dates.
Here is the link if you want to work at it to see it. If not, I don't care.
End Time Prophecy

 

[Gottservant]

I was testing you because I was impressed.

You have a gift for prophecy, in as much as you honour the Jews.

Prophecy does start, with the priests of the chosen people.

 

[Rev20]

Can't really blame you for saying that. I could just outright tell you but for right now I just choose to not to. That is unless you willing to read my article on end time prophecy and see it in there. It's there all right and blows peoples minds and gives great glory to God for his Word. How he could give the date of the end of the 4th empire and that age when those four empires in Daniel and Revelation ruled over and oppressed the saints over two thousand years before it happened is pretty amazing. Every bit as mind blowingly accurate as the date of the messiahs appearance and the destruction of Jerusalem. Every bit as accurate as the kings of the Greek Empire that secularists say is written after the fact and not as prophecy because it is so accurate. Every bit as accurate as the date and nature of Herod's reign and Octavian's conquering of Egypt in Daniel 11.
I will be posting all the places that date is on this forum later on down the road. PS, last guy that that said to me. A pastor and writer for very large publications got very publicly embarrassed. His fault, he kept telling people I was full of it and there are no such dates.
Here is the link if you want to work at it to see it. If not, I don't care.
End Time Prophecy

Daniel,

I just finished reading your "article" (book). I see you put a lot of work into it.

I really enjoyed the part on Daniel's visions. You lost me in the next section around Revelation 6, but I kept reading. I was looking forward to seeing how you were going to explain the blood of the prophets in chapter 18, but you skipped that one. How would you explain that?

Anyway, good work.


.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Daniel,

I just finished reading your "article" (book). I see you put a lot of work into it.

I really enjoyed the part on Daniel's visions. You lost me in the next section around Revelation 6, but I kept reading. I was looking forward to seeing how you were going to explain the blood of the prophets in chapter 18, but you skipped that one. How would you explain that?

Anyway, good work.


.

Yeah I wish I was a skilled writer but I am not. Daniels visions are very easy to write about. Revelation, very difficult. Arduous to write and read about. Thank you for the compliment.
Babylonian idolatry goes all the way back to Nimrod shortly after the flood. The actual idolatry of the ancient world was used by the kings and emperors of the ancient world to separate the peoples from the author of their freedom; God. Therefore it was a tool used to subjugate the people. It was certainly a part of the murder of the OT prophets by the idolatrous Kings of Israel. I use the term actual idolatry as opposed to the figurative idolatry Christians talk about today. We westerners have no concept of what is was like living under such spiritual and literal subjugation. Rome was whole hog on this. The idolatry of Nimrod and Babylon was a full blown civic duty of the citizens of the empire. I go into this allot after Revelation 6 with links and such. But it was this idolatrous system as a whole responsible for the murder of the OT and NT prophets and Apostles. Revelation 18 is decreeing the end of this in the earth and in fact for the most part it has ended because of the Gospel, the Word of God and the Government of God's influence in the earth. Yes there is much work to do. Yes radical Islam and international leftists are allying themselves against the Government of God and it's influence but...

That's the short answer. What I said about Revelation 18 is built upon my explanation of Roman idolatry that was explained after Revelation 6 and before Revelation 18.

 

[keras]

Yes, Daniel, I have now read your lengthy article. You make a good case for the fulfilment of a lot of Daniel's prophesies. But not all.
To make the 70th 'week' fit around the 1st Advent of Jesus, is a forced premise and means you have ignored many specific details that did not occur then and have yet to happen.
The worst thing with thinking all is 'done and dusted', is that you miss out on the great promises of God to His people, in these end times. How He will bless them as they live, at last, in all of the holy Land preparing for the coming Kingdom of Jesus.
BTW, you could use 'allot' of good proofreading!

 

[Douggg]

You might be surprised. If you want to take a few months in your spare time to see. Just copy and paste this into your search engine. "Wordservice, End Time Propehcy"

Daniel, do you really think anyone is going to wade through all that material? For one thing you have made it hard to read because of the background you chose is very distracting. Just have a plain one color, no fancy stuff, background.

I scanned through some of it.

You don't understand Daniel 8:22 and Daniel 8:23, in particular "their kingdom" in 8:23 is not their kingdoms, plural.

Daniel 8:23 is not talking about the four breakup kingdoms in 8:22 - which are plural. The kingdom of Daniel 8:23 is the kingdom of the transgressors - the ten end times kings - THEIR KINGDOM - SINGULAR -the kingdom (singular) they give to the beast in Revelation 17:17. It says their kingdom.

The king of fierce countenance and the 2300 days are end times, not back at the time of the Greeks.

The little horn, the king of fierce countenance, the willful king, the man of sin, the beast - are all the same person, but at different stages of his career. Ultimately, the person will be cast alive into the lake of fire at Jesus's Return.