The New New Jerusalem Thread

[Interplanner]

Don't forget that end times to Daniel syncs with the end of the 490 years.

 

[ebedmelech]

I will agree with Rev20 Daniel, you put in some good work, and though we disagree in areas (as many of us do), it's clear you understand the 70 weeks have been fulfilled.

Everything doesn't have to be an argument because those who are faithful will come to the "unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God", because Jesus will return, and "we will know EVEN AS WE ARE KNOWN".

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Daniel, do you really think anyone is going to wade through all that material? For one thing you have made it hard to read because of the background you chose is very distracting. Just have a plain one color, no fancy stuff, background.

I scanned through some of it.

You don't understand Daniel 8:22 and Daniel 8:23, in particular "their kingdom" in 8:23 is not their kingdoms, plural.

Daniel 8:23 is not talking about the four breakup kingdoms in 8:22 - which are plural. The kingdom of Daniel 8:23 is the kingdom of the transgressors - the ten end times kings - THEIR KINGDOM - SINGULAR -the kingdom (singular) they give to the beast in Revelation 17:17. It says their kingdom.


The king of fierce countenance and the 2300 days are end times, not back at the time of the Greeks.

The little horn, the king of fierce countenance, the willful king, the man of sin, the beast - are all the same person, but at different stages of his career. Ultimately, the person will be cast alive into the lake of fire at Jesus's Return.

Doug I may not know how to write well but I know how to read well. Those things you say are according to the pop culture end times teachings you accepted as gospel truth. However they are not what the text of the Bible says.
Daniel 8:19. And he said, look, I will make you understand what shall be in the final period of wrath: for at the time appointed the end shall be. 20. The ram which you saw having the two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. 21. And the rough goat is the king of Greece: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. 22. Now that being broken, whereas four stood in its place, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. 23. And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce expression, skilled in intrigues, shall stand up. 24. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and accomplish, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. 25. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

The text without question is speaking of the latter time of the Greek empire. It is not plain by this text alone that the final period of wrath is talking about the "wrath" that began with Nebuchadnezzar's destruction of Jerusalem and the deaths of millions if Israelites. Not to speak of the destruction of the northern kingdom 70 years before that. All of this being part of the end times of the Old covenant age that ended with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. It was fulfilled exactly as stated in the exact time stated by Antiochus IV Epiphanies. Because of what he does to the Israelites a great amount of prophecy is devoted to him in the book of Daniel. In short, he got a large number of the Israelites to apostatize and make sacrifices to Zeus. Then after a humiliating affair with Rome he got back into Jerusalem deceitfully. He murdered and sold into slavery approx. 160,000 Jews. He stopped the daily offering and desecrated the temple. Plundered and burned the city. Burned the books of the law, forbad any celebrations of any of the feasts. He set up an idol of Zeus at the alter of burnt offering. He sacrificed a pig on the alter. (The abomination of desolation.) He forced the Jews to sacrifice a pig on the 25th of each month to celebrate his birthday. He sought to exterminate Judaism and Hellenize them. ie: Convert them to the customs and religion of the Greeks. More on him will be spoken about later.
All this stuff is way off topic though as far as the New Jerusalem.
If your goal is to come up with a "unified theory" about Bible prophecy where you got it all put together beginning to end. Then you better start by dumping everything you think you understand and go back to the scripture. My suggestion, the best place to start, the end. The couple of dozen OT and NT chapters about the New Jerusalem. If it clearly is not what you say then everything else you believe about end time prophecy is false.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Yes, Daniel, I have now read your lengthy article. You make a good case for the fulfilment of a lot of Daniel's prophesies. But not all.
To make the 70th 'week' fit around the 1st Advent of Jesus, is a forced premise and means you have ignored many specific details that did not occur then and have yet to happen.

What details do you think are not fulfilled?

.
The worst thing with thinking all is 'done and dusted', is that you miss out on the great promises of God to His people, in these end times. How He will bless them as they live, at last, in all of the holy Land preparing for the coming Kingdom of Jesus.

That is my point about this thread. When you take the end time prophecies about the first covenant age and the end time prophecies about the age of the Gentiles, (That ended in 1453 AD.) and place them in this age. Then you have to ignore the couple of hundred chapters of prophecy and teachings that apply to this age. The age where all the earthly promises made to all the saints of times past, that never came to pass in their day,s are and will continue to be fulfilled in this age. This is happening because of the influence of the Gospel, the Word of God and God's invisible government. Those couple hundred chapters that the New Jerusalem prophecies are part of are where God's people's faith and labors should be. They SHOULD NOT be placing their faith and the resulting lack of labors in end time prophecies that spoke to two different ages in the past. Sorry to disappoint you with bad news . This is a world wide thing not a middle east thing and it will not happen by any other means than what we have been witnessing the last 500 years. The Bible, God's people, Biblical principle, God's providence and ways according to his zeal for all this changing the world one heart, one culture, one nation at a time.

BTW, you could use 'allot' of good proofreading!

That is a very kind and diplomatic understatement for....your grammar sucks. I agree. My wife agree's and tells me every day but says I'm getting better.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Don't forget that end times to Daniel syncs with the end of the 490 years.

Yeah, the end times of the Old Covenant age.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

I will agree with Rev20 Daniel, you put in some good work, and though we disagree in areas (as many of us do), it's clear you understand the 70 weeks have been fulfilled.

Everything doesn't have to be an argument because those who are faithful will come to the "unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God", because Jesus will return, and "we will know EVEN AS WE ARE KNOWN".

Well, I think I disagree with what most consider the return of the Lord. Maybe not with you though. You'd have to tell me.
Here is what I think about that subject.
The Coming (or Day) of the Lord

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Hosea 2: 19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in loving kindness, and in mercies. 20 I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD. 21 And it shall come to pass in that day, I will hear, saith the LORD, I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth; 22 And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel. 23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

Why would God sow us, the New Jerusalem into the earth? To reap a harvest of the precious fruit of the earth. as it says in these scriptures.

Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else

Isaiah 49: 8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;

Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen, in whom my soul delights;I have put my Spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the nations. 2 He will not cry aloud or lift up his voice, or make it heard in the street; 3 a bruised reed he will not break, and a faintly burning wick he will not quench;he will faithfully bring forth justice.4 He will not grow faint or be discouraged till he has established justice in the earth; and the coastlands wait for his law.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Luke 7: 20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God does not come visibly: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Jesus parables about this prophesied government of God say:
1.The preaching of the Word is the vehicle that will bring about all the good changes to the world prophesied throughout the Bible as opposed to the physical changes pop culture end time teachings preach.
2. That these good changes like leaven will affect the entire planet in time.
3. That it is the believer, Jew and Gentile that inherit said Government, as opposed to the physical descendants of Abraham or a physical nation of Israel.
4. That the pearl of great price is more than just going to heaven.
5. That the labor of being a pioneer bringing the gospel to a new place is far harsher than the labor in a country like the USA that has been radically influenced by the Gospel and that is how it is supposed to work. The reward is still heaven for the laborers.
6. That the nations of the world influenced by the Government of God that came through the Gospel will be greater than ancient Israel. Greater in the sense of more righteous and more powerful.
You can see this in these short articles on these parables. Start with the first if you read them as they build on one another.
The Parables About the Government of God

 

[Douggg]

Doug I may not know how to write well but I know how to read well. Those things you say are according to the pop culture end times teachings you accepted as gospel truth.

Daniel, I am 65 years old and the things I write have zero to do with pop culture. To start with, your understanding of Christ and thus the Antichrist has been ingrained into you to think that Christ means the Savior from our sins. Which the word christ literally and conceptually means anointed - and the christ means the promised great King of Israel, son of David.

However they are not what the text of the Bible says

.

My interpretation that the transgressor are the ten kings is interpretation. But the actual text of it saying "kingdom" not kingdoms in 8:23 is what the text says. So you are wrong about that. I highlighted the text you provided.

The issue is not over who the goat is, nor of Alexander being that king. The four in verse 22, is speaking about the 4 breakup kingdoms - not the 4 generals, the kings themselves. So it is not "their" kingdoms, even in verse 22. And the single kingdom Greece in verse 21 is Alexander's kingdom (not "their"), his kingdom.

Verse 23, is the verse dealing with the time of the end (the Greek empire and four breakups long gone) - the vision of the 2300 days, the little horn, and the transgressors. The purpose of the 4 lesser horns is to give a geographic location of where in the time of the end, the little horn comes from with a strong army to Israel.

Daniel 8:19. And he said, look, I will make you understand what shall be in the final period of wrath: for at the time appointed the end shall be. 20. The ram which you saw having the two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. 21. And the rough goat is the king of Greece: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. 22. Now that being broken, whereas four stood in its place, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. 23. And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce expression, skilled in intrigues, shall stand up. 24. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and accomplish, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. 25. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

The text without question is speaking of the latter time of the Greek empire.

In your mind, because you don't understand the text, and the purpose of the four horns.
Verse 22 gives historic (to us) information. Verse 23, however, is time of the end. "Their Kingdom" in verse 23 is time of the end.

The four breakup KINGDOMS in verse 22 is not the Greek Empire.Those breakup kingdoms never became kingdoms on par with the Greek Empire.

The LATTER TIME of their kingdom - is the latter time of the transgressors kingdom when the ten kings have come to power. The kingdom is the EU. It is in the latter time of the EU, its evolving into the ten king (leader) form of government. The EU has gone through several stages since it's inception as the EEC establish by the Treaty of Rome.

It is not plain by this text alone that the final period of wrath is talking about the "wrath" that began with Nebuchadnezzar's destruction of Jerusalem and the deaths of millions if Israelites. Not to speak of the destruction of the northern kingdom 70 years before that. All of this being part of the end times of the Old covenant age that ended with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. It was fulfilled exactly as stated in the exact time stated by Antiochus IV Epiphanies. Because of what he does to the Israelites a great amount of prophecy is devoted to him in the book of Daniel. In short, he got a large number of the Israelites to apostatize and make sacrifices to Zeus. Then after a humiliating affair with Rome he got back into Jerusalem deceitfully. He murdered and sold into slavery approx. 160,000 Jews. He stopped the daily offering and desecrated the temple. Plundered and burned the city. Burned the books of the law, forbad any celebrations of any of the feasts. He set up an idol of Zeus at the alter of burnt offering. He sacrificed a pig on the alter. (The abomination of desolation.) He forced the Jews to sacrifice a pig on the 25th of each month to celebrate his birthday. He sought to exterminate Judaism and Hellenize them. ie: Convert them to the customs and religion of the Greeks. More on him will be spoken about later.

Nothing to do with Antiochus. It is not the Greek empire, when the little horn comes to power. It is the same person who is the little horn in Daniel 7. Both chapters end the same way with Jesus returning to end the persecution of the little horn.

All this stuff is way off topic though as far as the New Jerusalem. If your goal is to come up with a "unified theory" about Bible prophecy where you got it all put together beginning to end.

Yes, and what your site needs at the beginning is an outline of the events of all of the end times prophecies how they fit together. Then go into the details. I didn't see that at your site .

Then you better start by dumping everything you think you understand and go back to the scripture.

, right I should listen to you . You should take your own advice. It is kingdom in verse 23, not kingdoms of the four breakup generals. Which replaced Alexander's kingdom.

My suggestion, the best place to start, the end. The couple of dozen OT and NT chapters about the New Jerusalem. If it clearly is not what you say then everything else you believe about end time prophecy is false.

You should take your own advice. Start at the end and work back,. First subtract the 1000 years for the millennium rule of Christ here on earth. That gets to the return of Jesus to this earth, at the end of the 7 years, 2520 days.

Then subtract the 2300 days from day 2520, that will give you day 220 of the 7 years, that the animal sacrifices will start up again, then in the middle of the 7 years stopped, the transgression takes places, and the temple cleansed of the abomination of desolation that will shortly follow, 1335 days to when Jesus returns.

The events in order:

1. confirmation of the covenant day 1
2. restart of the animal sacrifices day 220 (2300 days til Jesus returns)
3. middle of the week, transgression of desolation (2thessalonians2:4)
4. middle of the week, abomination of desolation set up (1335 days til Jesus returns)
5. Jesus returns day 2520 - ending the 2300 days of Daniel 8, and the 1335 days of Daniel 12, and the time, times, half times of Daniel 7, Daniel 12:7, Revelation 12.

the transgression of desolation is the person going into the temple and claiming be God.
the abomination of desolation is the image of the person that will later be made and setup in the temple.

 

[keras]

To make the 70th 'week' fit around the 1st Advent of Jesus, is a forced premise and means you have ignored many specific details that did not occur then and have yet to happen. Keras
What details do you think are not fulfilled? Daniel Martinovich

Just simply the fact that John wrote Revelation years after the Crucifixion. He gives details of a period when a 'beast' will have all earthly power and authority. Rev. 13:2In Rev. 11:2-3 we are told for how long that period is. 42 months or 1260 days. Then in Rev 12:6, there is another 1260 day period when the 'woman', that is righteous Israel, is taken to a place of safety.
These two time periods add up to 7 prophetic years and they fit with what Daniel 11:27 says. You are, therefore, in error to say all of Daniels 70 'weeks' have been completed.

 

[Interplanner]

why should Christians use the Judaic meaning of an antichrist?

The things accomplished by Messiah in that week are there, and the conflict to the end was in the events of the DofJ.

Keras, did you notice that you went to Dan 11 to sort out the 70th week? Why is that? Do you habitually leave the passage in question behind?

 

[Douggg]

why should Christians use the Judaic meaning of an antichrist?

Because the word christ back in its original meaning, that hasn't been altered by 2000 years of disassociation with the actual meaning of the word, means "anointed".

Anointeds were kings and priests. They were anointeds because they are the ones God choose for a specific purpose. It is the same God in Christianity as it is in the whole bible - Inter.

When it comes to "the" christ, what was common knowledge at the time of disciples in Jewish circles was understood to be referring to the special King of Israel, son of David that God would send to be their king.

Now do you argue with the new testament when it defines "christ" in Mark 15:32 ?

Are you going to argue with the New Testament, this verse -

32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

No-one has become the Anti-Christ, the illicit King of Israel, son of David - inter - it is still futurism. Your favorite word.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Really Doug? You think you'd get a passing grade in any literature class ripping sentences out of their context to place them in your end time conjectures. The ten kings belong to the Roman Empire as does that little horn. By the way I know who he is too.

I won't be entertaining this kind of nonsense because that is what it is. You want to teach it it that is your business but don't get mad at me when I turn them away from folks like you who try to tell everyone 1+1 = 3 or 6 or whatever you want it to equal.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

To make the 70th 'week' fit around the 1st Advent of Jesus, is a forced premise and means you have ignored many specific details that did not occur then and have yet to happen. Keras
What details do you think are not fulfilled? Daniel Martinovich

Just simply the fact that John wrote Revelation years after the Crucifixion. He gives details of a period when a 'beast' will have all earthly power and authority. Rev. 13:2In Rev. 11:2-3 we are told for how long that period is. 42 months or 1260 days. Then in Rev 12:6, there is another 1260 day period when the 'woman', that is righteous Israel, is taken to a place of safety.
These two time periods add up to 7 prophetic years and they fit with what Daniel 11:27 says. You are, therefore, in error to say all of Daniels 70 'weeks' have been completed.

I am going to pass on this Keras because you didn't answer my question but instead brought up other subjects. This is all way off topic anyway.

 

[Douggg]

well don't keep us in suspense - who are you saying is the little horn?

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

well don't keep us in suspense - who are you saying is the little horn?

I'll start a thread on that some day.

 

[NannaNae]

"The nations (the descendants of the strangers) will build the walls of the New Jerusalem. Lets try to make this a little more clear. Rev. 21: And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Just another way of illustrating this: Ephesians 2: 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;"
I really don't think they built up the walls of the new Jerusalem. you put that .

really Israel is still where it is until he comes ...... other stuff and things is being built.

 

[ebedmelech]

No-one has become the Anti-Christ, the illicit King of Israel, son of David - inter - it is still futurism. Your favorite word.

No Doug, that's "fantasy eschatology". You can't even justify that from scripture without significant twisting of passages.

 

[Interplanner]

He did come Doug. You've just been reading the references and the definitions with the same veil. Watch out for 2P2P; it will take you two directions.

As of the declarations of Christ, we have the corrected the understanding of Christ. That also sets up a definition of AC. We don't go back to find a counter to what Judaism said. We look around for a counter of what Christ was. They were there in the opposition that Judaism produced (2 Cor 10). They likewise had another Gospel, Gal 1. They had a spirit that said Jesus who came in the flesh (ie, Jesus of Nazareth) was not the Christ.

What they really wanted, and what the AC really is, is what Judaism thought he would be and pushed into leadership in the middle decades of the 1st century, right when Israel should have been engrossed in the mission of the true messiah. They deluded Israel into disaster, I Thess 2.

 

[Douggg]

What they really wanted, and what the AC really is, is what Judaism thought he would be and pushed into leadership in the middle decades of the 1st century, right when Israel should have been engrossed in the mission of the true messiah. They deluded Israel into disaster, I Thess 2.

Prove by any Jewish (Judaism) site that the messiah, King of Israel, son of David who they believe the messiah has come. It is not a uniquely first century Jewish position phenomena, limited to just the first century.

You are making up that it was Israel's burden to spread the gospel, and that is not what Jesus said in the great commission in Luke 24:44-48.

 

[Interplanner]

There won't be any proof there Doug, because that would be their mistake, or veil. Where have you been?

The people he was speaking to in Lk 24 was the real Israel. He trained others, too. It is in the passion of Rom 9-11 as well. Look at what the mission expectations of 10:14+. That's not just directed into Israel but to all nations. Look at the implications of Acts 13:47 which is the followup discussion of the sermon. As you know, sometimes when we don't get "the point" of a sermon, it helps to hear the echo back from followup Q&A. That's exactly what happens there.

For that matter, look at the word Gospel in Is 52 which is where the appeal in Rom 10 has its source.

Look at the quotes in I Cor 15 about the victory over death in the Gospel; they come from passages that appear to be about the destiny of Israel in Isaiah. The passion of Paul was to get Israel to be a multitude of preachers. "The Lord gave the word, and great was the company of those who proclaimed it."

Made up?