The name of "Allah"

[EnemyOfReason]

There is no way you can compare revering the Word of G-d with a meteorite.

It is a pretty rock, that much I will say.

But for people like myself and you who actually know something about Judaic customs it can easily be said that revering a rock yet alone a supposed House of Abraham is not Judaic at all.

I have never known a Jew to give the West Wall the amount of reverence the Muslims give the Kaaba.
To pray in the direction of your homeland is one thing but to mindlessly pray to an idol such as the Kaaba is another

 

[visionary]

It is a pretty rock, that much I will say.

But for people like myself and you who actually know something about Judaic customs it can easily be said that revering a rock yet alone a supposed House of Abraham is not Judaic at all.

I have never known a Jew to give the West Wall the amount of reverence the Muslims give the Kaaba.
To pray in the direction of your homeland is one thing but to mindlessly pray to an idol such as the Kaaba is another

while you are here I have to ask... I hear that Muslims do not actually pray to Allah, but do reverence and oblations. Allah [Muslim or Islamic]is more of an ideology rather than a theology.??

 

[EnemyOfReason]

while you are here I have to ask... I hear that Muslims do not actually pray to Allah, but do reverence and oblations. Allah [Muslim or Islamic]is more of an ideology rather than a theology.??

This is not true in the slightest. Well sort of

Salat is worship, this is what you see every day and is done 5 times a day starting with Fajr, Dhuhr, Asr, Maghrib and Isha salah.

Dua on the other hand is actual prayer and supplication along with communion with god. This is often done during salat though. Have you ever seen a Muslim raise their palms to their face? This is dua and typical prayer.

The issue is that there is so much debating amongst dua and many ulama say that dua must be in Arabic and God only hears the Arabic tongue.

While it is commonly said that one can do dua in any language, regardless many shaykh and ulama will say otherwise and prescribe dua found in the QUr'an and ahadith.


One of th many questions asked by Muslims are "why are my prayers not being answered". Scholars will say you must pray in a certain fashion etc etc and it only counts during certain times of the day and what not.

So there is a whole legalistic procedure just for prayer. Many Muslims do not supplicate because of this and just do worship(oblation).

I myself personally do not believe in supplication or prayer, just worship.

 

[EnemyOfReason]

while you are here I have to ask... I hear that Muslims do not actually pray to Allah, but do reverence and oblations. Allah [Muslim or Islamic]is more of an ideology rather than a theology.??

Also Allah is a very strong theological presence for Muslims and not ideological although it is treated that way often.

Islam consists of fiqh and various forms of jurisprudence and law and is used as an entire cultural subset of society like Hinduism.

It is a theology, political guidance, government, system of law, ethics, morals, and ideology all rolled into one.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Allah is a very strong theological presence for Muslims and not ideological although it is treated that way often..

The two do overlap...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

It is a pretty rock, that much I will say.

But for people like myself and you who actually know something about Judaic customs it can easily be said that revering a rock yet alone a supposed House of Abraham is not Judaic at all.

I have never known a Jew to give the West Wall the amount of reverence the Muslims give the Kaaba.

To pray in the direction of your homeland is one thing but to mindlessly pray to an idol such as the Kaaba is another

That said, there are many Muslims who've had to note to other Muslims that the concept of prayer toward Mecca (with the Kaaba) doesn't mean that you make the Kaaba the object of worship - just as other Jews in Judaic thought had to note to other Jews that they had no room to actually worship the Temple or make HOLY places where it was believed the Lord arrived to be places that you physically worshipped....Jacob being one example with what he did:

Genesis 28:14
16 When Jacob awoke from his sleep, he thought, “Surely the Lord is in this place, and I was not aware of it.” 17 He was afraid and said, “How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God; this is the gate of heaven.”
18 Early the next morning Jacob took the stone he had placed under his head and set it up as a pillar and poured oil on top of it. 19 He called that place Bethel,[e] though the city used to be called Luz.

Genesis 31:13
I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar and where you made a vow to me. Now leave this land at once and go back to your native land.’”
Genesis 31:12-14 /Genesis 31

Genesis 35:1
[ Jacob Returns to Bethel ] Then God said to Jacob, “Go up to Bethel and settle there, and build an altar there to God, who appeared to you when you were fleeing from your brother Esau.”
Genesis 35:1-3 / Genesis 35

​

No, Jacob didn't worship the altar he had built in honor of what he felt the Lord do - but the area he was in had GREAT significance because of what He felt God do there.

There are many Jews who make Holy Places areas that they actually worship and it has been an issue - Holy Land sites as well as places such as Starting with what occurred with Rachael weeping for her children at Rachel's Tomb where others (Jews and Muslims alike) come for prayer. On the context of that, Rachael was weeping for her children and it's why the rabbis said Rachael was left on the road/buried where she was.

Rachel died giving birth to her second child Benjamin before reaching Jacob's father house, 'before reaching Ephrath' - Bethlehem (Genesis 35:19). Jacob buries her where she died, in her own tomb (Gen 35:20; 48:17) and not in the ancestral tomb at Machpelah. And just before the entrance to the city of David, whose ancestor is Judah, Leah's fourth son. Jacob tells us that 'when I came from Paddan, Rachel, to my sorrow, died in the land of Canaan . . . and I buried her there' (48:7). Why does Jacob not carry Rachel's body the twenty or so miles south from the alleged place of her demise to the cave at Machpelah which Genesis states as the proper burial site for members of Abraham's family. Jacob himself tells us he buried Leah in the Machpelah (Gen.49:31) and he requests that he himself be buried there as well (50:13). So why does Jacob not bury his beloved Rachel at Machpelah, but rather in a roadside grave? According to a midrash because she dishonored her father by stealing (on the Ten Commandments)...and according to another midrash Jacob knew of that the Babylonian exiles would pass by and Rachel could pray for mercy (midrash Rabbah Gen. 82:10). Her early death is attributed by the Rabbis to Jacob's curse over the teraphim as seen in Genesis 31:31-33 and Genesis 31:17-20.

• Rachel: Midrash and Aggadah | Jewish Women's Archive

• 
  
  Capsule History - The Committee for Rachel's Tomb
  ​

In Jewish thought with Rachael weeping for her children/praying for them whenever they passed by her way. The Jews have been asking the matriarch Rachael for her intercessions since (according to one Jewish source*) the time of Joseph, who first asked his mother for her intercession as he passed her tomb on the way to his captivity. Her tomb is, to this day, a pilgrimage site as the devout still ask for her prayers.

Per this, the passage in Jeremiah (Rachel crying for her children) is interpreted in Judaism as her intercessions to God.

* Tanach, Stone edition, in a footnote.

For more, as seen here at Judaism.com:

Ever since her passing, thousands of men, women, and children have journeyed to the Tomb of Rachel (Kever Rochel) to request her intercession on their behalf. The barren pray for children. The sick pray for health. The lost and the troubled pray for release and relief. And no one ever leaves empty-handed. For Emeinu (Our Mother) always gives her blessings.

Jacob must have known that her resting place would become, like Jerusalem, a destination for pilgrims. Therefore, the Bible writes, "Over her grave Jacob put up a pillar, it is the pillar at Rachel's grave to this day." (Genesis 35:20-21)
​

For some good resources to investigate, there are two editions of the OT; the LXX, and the Stone edition of the Tanach (Masoretic, tr. by a board of Rabbis). Amazon.com: Tanach: The Stone, Student Size Black (9781578191123): Nosson Scherman: Books That Joseph -3,500 years ago - was the first to request the prayers of his deceased mother, Rachel, is described in a footnote of the Tanach.

• The Tomb of Rachel
  [*]Rachel’s Tomb: The Bible vs. Tradition
  [*]
• Rachel's Tomb :: Jewish Media Resources
• Rachel Weeping: Jews, Christians, and Muslims at the Fortress Tomb

Of course, there's nothing saying that all HAVE to pray by where Rachael died - but on the same token, it's understood WHY they do so. The same goes for those in the Muslim world when it comes to the Kaaba and believing that it was Holy in what it symbolized to Allah.

If one wishes to be technical, there's still the reality within Judaic custom that there's HIGH reverence toward Temple as well as Jerusalem in general - and there've been PLENTY of Jews giving the same if not more reverence to the West Wall than what other Muslims do with the Kaaba - both groups noting they don't worship the object itself (i.e. Muslims not worshipping the Kaaba and Jews not worshiping the Wall or other objects they kiss during service ....including their tallit corners being kissed) and do actions in reverence.

Within Judaism, there is no escaping the reality of how there has ALWAYS been symbolic worship that has gone down. There was already Biblical precedent where objects and items were consecrated for Holiness and with the Lord's power (more shared in here and #35/#36 ) - for within OT Israel, the objects used in tabernacle (and later Temple ) worship were prayed over/sanctified before the Lord and all of it spoke to the Work of the Lord. It is very powerful studying how the objects within the tabernacle looked (which one can go here or here for more on that) and how there was a reverence to things rather than acting as if it was common - things like the Showbread or the Golden Candlestick, within the Holy Place which provided light, and many other instruments had a Divine Purpose ( Exodus 27, Exodus 30:27-29, Exodus 31:8-10 , Exodus 35:15-17 , Numbers 4, Numbers 7:1-3 , Leviticus 8:10-12, 2 Chronicles 29:17-19, etc. ).

For the sake of the reader wanting more information on the historical aspect of mysticism within the Early Church, one can go online/research an organization under the name of "Jewish Roots of Eastern Christian Mysticism" ( ) as well as here in "Temple and Righteousness in Qumran and Early Christianity - Jewish Roots of Eastern Christian Mysticism" - as well as "Towards a Theology of the Tabernacle and its Furniture" ( ).

Even others revered in Judaic culture such as Naaman the Syrian had similar experiences:

2 Kings 5:1-22
15 Then Naaman and all his attendants went back to the man of God. He stood before him and said, “Now I know that there is no God in all the world except in Israel. So please accept a gift from your servant.”

16 The prophet answered, “As surely as the Lord lives, whom I serve, I will not accept a thing.” And even though Naaman urged him, he refused.

17 “If you will not,” said Naaman, “please let me, your servant, be given as much earth as a pair of mules can carry, for your servant will never again make burnt offerings and sacrifices to any other god but the Lord. 18 But may the Lord forgive your servant for this one thing: When my master enters the temple of Rimmon to bow down and he is leaning on my arm and I have to bow there also—when I bow down in the temple of Rimmon, may the Lord forgive your servant for this.”
19 “Go in peace,” Elisha said.
​

Naaman - under the impression that Israel's God can only be worshipped in the land of Israel/sacred territory - asked for dirt since it was necessary to create a "miniature Israel" in Syria - and of course, the question of how God could be worshiped in a foreign land became a serious one for Israel during the exile (Psalm 137:4)....but the reality of the matter is that actions were done symbolically because of what they symbolized. Two mules' burden of earth— Dirt with which to make an altar (Ex 20:24) Someone could have easily claimed Naaman wanted to worship dirt - but that was not his intention.

Moreover, when he bowed down, he knew the intent behind what he was doing - even though others around him had differing views.

If people wish to take issue with others kissing a supposed meteorite (even though many do so simply in reflection of honoring where God is at and doing it unto him) - and yet don't take into account what Judaism itself has noted when it comes to bowing...then IMHO, it should be considered..

Kissing/reverence are kissing and reverence - regardless. And seeing that neither were commanded when it comes to doing things symbolically (i.e. kissing a Torah Scroll or the Wailing Wall in reflection of God's Word being Holy - in the same way others although not all may kiss a Stone in reflection of where the Center of the World is or remembering to pray to God), it is inconsequential whenever others argue for acceptance of one thing while trying to make another on the same level as if it's not equal.

Prayer is prayer

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Salat is worship, this is what you see every day and is done 5 times a day starting with Fajr, Dhuhr, Asr, Maghrib and Isha salah.

Dua on the other hand is actual prayer and supplication along with communion with god. This is often done during salat though. Have you ever seen a Muslim raise their palms to their face? This is dua and typical prayer.

Funny you should mention this - as there was a discussion elsewhere in regards to the reasons behind why so many in the Muslim world seem similar to what occurred with Eastern Christianity when it comes to prayer styles - and it has been noted by numerous scholars how much the Muslim world tended to reverse engineer from what Eastern Christians were already doing.

As said in another discussion:

Hi

I've read that oriental orthodox Christians also prostrate oneself when praying, just as Muslims do.
And that Muslims have copied that from Christians.

Is this true?
Does anyone have a video. ?

Thanks for your answers.

Esdra

Prostration is done in the EO, OO and RC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOOhdcThchU

It seems that if anything, Christians should use prostrations more in worship. I admire that aspect of Islam, the physicality of their worship. I wonder if modern Christians in the USA would stop seeing Church and God as this casual pop-culture deal if it involved us kneeling and pressing their forehead to the ground in abjection as we prayed.

Just a thought. If prayer looked more like this

and less of this

we'd be better off.

Side note.... There was an orthodox monk (a heretic who was excommunicated) involved in the institution of Islam. He was from an Orthodox Church. I think that it's the Muslims who pray by prostrating themselves like the Christians of the 7th century, not the other way around

Yeah, I heard once from a monk that Mohammad adopted the practice of prostrations in worship because he saw some Christians praying and was really impressed by the attitude of submission it conveyed.

We have a tendency to forget that there is a history behind the liturgy, the hierarchy, and everything else. Some things are now huge parts when initially they were simply practical solutions. For example, in the eastern liturgies, there are two processions, first where the priest takes the Book of the Gospels and processes, and a second where the bread and the wine are taken from the altar then processed. The first procession comes from early Christianity where someone would hide the Scriptures in their house during the week and then bring them in at that point in the service. The second procession comes from the Imperial liturgy in Constantinople where there were bakeries as part of the Hagia Sophia complex. The bread and wine would be brought in after the readings. Most parishes would do their best to mimic the Emperor and now today we have this procession which almost seems out of place in the rest of the service.

[/center]
When I was in Egypt I attended mosque every Friday and went to a Coptic church on Sunday. There was always great dialogue between my escort, who was a Muslim man, the Muslima's with me at mosque and those who went to the coptic church. One big difference is that, like Orthodoz Judaism, Islam seperates the sexes in worship and teaching, so attending a coptic church was a rare opportunity for man and wife to be together during teaching. Most i talked to enjoyed this and said they learned more together and had a better experience, although some (mostly older) did say it was a distraction...

What you said reminded me of the old saying "Not all roads lead to God---but God can meet us on any road."

..... Despite the long and well-known history of conflict between Christians and Muslims, their mystical traditions--especially in the Christian East and in Sufism (more here, here, here, here, here, here , here, here, here , here, here, here and here/ here / )--have shared for centuries many of the same spiritual methods and goals....and on that, its interesting to consider how things often connect. And on the issue of connections, I'm reminded of a solid book on the issue that one can go online and look up under the name of "From the Holy Mountain: A Journey Among the Christians of the Middle East" ( )

Its by William Dalrymple, who is a Catholic who went/explored the East for some time. Hisbook traces the Eastern Orthodox congregations scattered across the Middle East from their ancient origins, reviews how they have fared under centuries of Islamic rule, and discusses the complex relationship between Islam, Judaism, and Christianity in the region. As said in the book (for an excerpt):

Across the length of what was once the former Ottoman Empire the twentieth century has seen, with the rise of education, self-consciousness and modern nationalism, the bloody unravelling of that complex tapestry - most recently and painfully in Bosnia, but before that in Cyprus, Palestine, Greece and Turkey. In each of these places pluralism has been replaced by a savage polarisation. In drips and drabs, and sometimes in great tragic exoduses, religious minorities have fled to places where they can be majorities, and those too few for that have fled the region altogether, seeking out places less heavy in history such as America and Australia. If the twentieth century has seen Europe change to a multicultural society, the same period has seen country after country in the Middle East change in the opposite direction, to a series of monolithic monoethnic blocks.
​

Only in a few places such as Syria does the old intricate patchwork survive, but in these areas the old ways can be found surviving still. Shortly after seeing Muslims coming en masse to pray in the Christian basilica at Seidnaya, I saw Christians coming to sacrifice a sheep at the shrine of a Muslim saint in the ruins of the old Byzantine city of Cyrrhus, north west of Aleppo. I was told that a Syrian Orthodox girl struck down by some apparently incurable sickness had had a dream telling her to visit the shrine of Nebi Uri at Cyrrhus. She had done so, spent the night in his shrine, and the next day had been healed.

The sheep, which was covered with flowers and ribbons like the Old Testament scapegoat, was being slaughtered as an offering.

"We believe that if you are generous and give a good sheep to fulfil your vow," said the Sufi Sheik who presided over the shrine, "then you will ride that sheep at the Day of Judgement. That sheep will carry you into Paradise."
"And the Christians believe this too?" I asked
"There is no difference between ourselves and the Christians on this matter," said the Sheik, "except that sometimes the Christians make the sign of Christ over the forehead of the person want cured."

Again and again in the Middle East I came across this extraordinary Christian-Muslim syncretism, this porousness of faith, where the ideas, practices and superstitions of one religion have trickled imperceptibly into another. But there was something else too. It wasn't just that in many places Christianity and Islam were still managing to coexist: seeing them together, and seeing the way the Eastern Christians practised their faith, brought home quite how closely the two faiths are really linked.

Today the West often views Islam as a civilisation very different from and indeed innately hostile to Christianity. Only when you travel in Christianity's Eastern homelands do you realise how closely the two are really connected, the former growing directly out of the latter and still, to this day, embodying many aspects and practices of the early Christian world now lost in Christianity's modern Western-based incarnation. When the early Byzantines were first confronted by the Prophet's armies, they assumed that Islam was merely an heretical form of Christianity, and in many ways they were not so far wrong: Islam accepts much of the Old and New Testaments and venerates both Jesus and the ancient Jewish prophets.

Significantly, the greatest and most subtle theologian of the early church, St. John Damascene, was convinced that Islam was at root not a separate religion, but instead a form of Christianity. St. John had grown up in the Ummayad Arab court of Damascus, where his father was chancellor, and he was an intimate boyhood friend of the future Caliph al-Yazid; the two boys' drinking bouts in the streets of Damascus were the subject of much horrified gossip in the streets of the new Islamic capital.

Later, in his old age, John took the habit at the desert monastery of Mar Saba where he began work on his great masterpiece, a refutation of heresies entitled the Fount of Knowledge. The book contains an extremely precise and detailed critique of Islam, the first ever written by a Christian, which, intriguingly, John regarded as a form of Christian heresy related to Arianism: after all Arianism, like Islam, denied the divinity of Christ. Although he lived at the very hub of the early Islamic world, it never seems to have occurred to him that Islam might be a separate religion. If a theologian of the stature of John Damascene was able to regard Islam as a new- if heretical- form of Christianity, it helps to explain how Islam was able to convert so much of the Middle Eastern population in so short a time, even though Christianity remained the majority religion until the time of the Crusades.


The longer you spend in the Christian communities of the Middle East, the more you become aware of the extent to which Eastern Christian practice formed the template for what were to become the basic conventions of Islam. The Muslim form of prayer with its bowings and prostrations appears to derive from the older Syrian Orthodox tradition that is still practised in pewless churches across the Levant.
​

 

[EnemyOfReason]

Funny you should mention this - as there was a discussion elsewhere in regards to the reasons behind why so many in the Muslim world seem similar to what occurred with Eastern Christianity when it comes to prayer styles - and it has been noted by numerous scholars how much the Muslim world tended to reverse engineer from what Eastern Christians were already doing.

Islamic textual content(The Qur'an) primarily consist of Gnostic Gospels from the Syrian orders as is evident since Syrian Arabic and its dialect occurs in many places in the Qur'an.

The practices of Islam are primarily derived of Semitic origins. Prostration and prayer has been around even before Jews starting with Hindus and panchang pranam. It is a pivotal action in any form of worship, even for me.

The exact origins of sajdaj in Islam though precedes Eastern orthodoxy in the region and goes more towards tradition Bedu customs which would have been derived from the Jews in that era.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Islamic textual content(The Qur'an) primarily consist of Gnostic Gospels from the Syrian orders as is evident since Syrian Arabic and its dialect occurs in many places in the Qur'an.
.

Indeed - although there were things present than the Syrian orders since there were various forms of Christian thought which tended to get included as well (Based on forms of Christian ideas Mohommad was exposed to).

Some of this was discussed more in-depth in previous dialouges - as seen here:

Ultimately all that we see is created by YHWH, so we slander His creation by slandering others.

He expects us to hold.

Indeed Most, if not ALL of Islam is based on non-canonical Jewish sources that existed amongst the illiterate Jews of western Arabia and which were told by storytellers in the public market places of mainly Mecca. And the same goes for stories told by many of the Christians who were exiled from the Eastern empire due to their views being herectical/not accepted by the Orthodoxy of the day.

When understanding the background of how the Quran developed, some things tend to make more sense as to how it developed as it did.

For in my view, studying one of the earliest critiques of St.John of Damascus is amongst the best routes to go with since his view was that Islam (when it was starting) was essentially a heresy within Christianity rather than something different at ALL points from Christianity. He called it the "Heresy of the Ishmaelites." John the Damascene was a saint and an early Church Father who experienced Islam during its infantile stages...

One good review on the issue can be found if going here. To judge from the subsequent nature of Islam, Christianity seems to have been particularly interesting to him, since Muhammad adopted and adapted quite a few Christian ideas...and IMHO, when studying the people who initially came into the land where Muhammad grew up in, it seems that much of the Disputes between the Eastern Orthodox Christians and the Roman Catholic papacy influenced Muhammad s understanding of Christianity on certain levels. Despite all of the ways that Muhammad did erroneous things, I'd tend to agree with others who feel that the man was partially a victim of Christianity/the evolution it went through.

From what I understand, Constantine legalized Christianity and made it the official religion of the Empire---and during the time when the Nicene Creed established orthodoxy, especially as it related to the Person of Christ, Expulsion of heresy occurred as a result of nationalized Christianity—many “Christians” with variant beliefs migrated/fled to the Arabian peninsula, which by the 6th century comprised a mixture of Jews, Hanifs, polytheistic Arab tribes, and “Christians” with varying beliefs.

In the context that Muhammad lived in, his influences were Arab polytheists, "heretic" Christians, Jews, and Abrahamic monotheists called Hanifs. The Qur’an addresses a number of heresies that had already been dealt with 300 years earlier during the age of great Christian councils, and we should learn to read it through the cultural lens of its time. Some examples of heresies it addressed were ones like saying that Jesus/God the Father and the Holy Spirit were "3 different gods" (as many Muslims often say "CHristians" say when failing to understand that Muhammad said not to support the ideology of 3 gods since other Christians were condeming such).


To give a different perspective on why so much within the Qur'an is similar to what is found in Christianity and why Mohommad knew that, it was once noted that what was noted in the Qura'an on Christ was indeed the same Yeshua but with a newly decorated biography---with the essentially looking to the right person but with an incomplete understanding that could lead to bad consequences.

Seeing how Muhammad himself was not really a scholar on all points and was heavily influenced by the accounts of Christ he may've heard from other believers in Christ, it is not surprising to me to see the many ways in which some of the things he notes are not fully accurate..or as well expounded upon as in the very Bible which the Quran encourages all to actually study. Its always interesting to see the many accounts of believers in Christ who noted that they grew up studying the Quran--and yet, grew from that into reading the scriptures when they noticed how the Quran instructed them to do so...and thus, they ended up reading the scriptures/gaining a fuller view of what the Quran only saw to a limited degree...

Some of it's akin to the dynamic of folk or tale tales and real biographies, as the former deal with unbelievable elements, related as if it were true and factual, even thoug there are many true aspects it was built around while other things are exaggerations. Some stories are exaggerations of actual historical/biographical eventS (i.e. Davey Crocket and the Alamo, John Henry, etc), for example fish stories ('the fish that got away') such as, "that fish was so big, why I tell ya', it nearly sank the boat when I pulled it in!"---but compared to an actual biography, one will get fuller details that describe an event in its fullness and give clarity on one aspect that wasn't understood as fully.

For a practical example of this within the Quran, one can consider the example of where it was noted that the Lord made clay pigeons come to life. In the Quran, it notes that "Jesus could make birds out of clay and create life for the amusement of his playmates with "Allah's" permission. He would make clay birds into which he breathed and they were transformed, by the Lord's permission into real birds that could fly. i.e. duplication of the process of CREATION, by God's permission. Seeing that, one must ask 'what purpose was there in allowing 'Jesus' to make birds out of clay what could fly (with Allah's permission) further God's purpose? For God doesn't do things without a purpose.

That fact that 'Jesus' could do this tells us that as a child 'Jesus' could create life. And who creates life, but God Himself? In the final analysis, perhaps the Qur'an is demonstrating that 'Jesus' is the Creator. For notice according to the Qur'an "Allah" creates through His Word---and Jesus/Isa is considered the Word and Spirit of God. Perhaps the author of the Qur'an didn't realize what this all meant...as he repeated Christian folklore and made a huge mistake in repeating it without understanding the full implications.

From an historical perspective, some of the stories in the Quran must have been circulating around Arabian caravan routes where Muhammad may have heard them when he was in the employ of his wife Khadija. If interested, the following 7-minute video explains a few of them.

Is the Quran Corrupted? Biblical Characters in the Quran​

With Eastern Christianity (in some circles), similar things have often come up...as there's one account somewhere I remember learning of where the 18yrs of the life was Christ (between when he was 12 and when he went into ministry) involved Him traveling to India, making playful miracles and learning. In the Quran itself, those specific folklore stories are from the second century and older. Some of the material in the Ahadith is actually taken verbatim from the Gospel of Thomas. The story of Jesus talking to Mary in the Cradle, as it appears in the Quran in Surah 3:38-48, has always interested me. For the story was most likely being told in the times of Muhammad when considering the pseudepigrapha accounts of the same. --and for more, one can go here or here, in light of how many other scholars have been noting the same for sometime now. Apparently Muhammad heard them told verbally and thought they were true, when in fact, they are folklore. He couldn't tell the difference, as one who wasn't educated. They include Jesus talking as an infant and making clay birds that could fly, plus others.

On the issue of folklore within the Quran, something else that may be worth noting is that many of the things that could be folk stories learned from other Christians still have much they can convey. In example, concerning the clay pigeon example, Christ did some pretty radical miracles that may've been VERY CRAZY to see---such as spitting in mud/placing it in someone's eyes ( John 9:5-7 ) or touching one's tongue and spitting before they were healed--as in Mark 7:32-34 --and the same with Mark 8:22-24 where he spit in a man's eyes. John 2 where he turned water into wine and helped keep a party going is another famous (and hilarious ) instance that I'm reminded of. ...and much of it seems odd. Nonetheless, that doesn't mean that because it seems odd to us automatically makes it something to suspect would not further God's purpose. In the wilderness experience in Matthew 4, if God commanded Jesus to turn stones into bread, that would have not been a problem. For God made food and Jesus being God could have done so. But his purpose in the wilderness was to fast...and had He turned stones to bread without first being One with the Father in reflecting His Will, He would have been acting without proper authority. What Satan tried to do with Jesus was to get Him to use His powers to satisfy His own desires rather than trusting God to supply all that He needed during His temptation...which Jesus responded to by reminding the enemy what the people of Israel should have learned in the wilderness (Deuteronomy 8:3).

Likewise, with clay pigeons, I don't think it'd be a good example for one to use if trying to show where Islam may miss it with stories of Christ. For even if/when it may not be a true story, it still does show the dynamic of what Scripture testifies to when saying that Jesus obeyed as a man, as the representive for all who believe so as to "fulfill all righteousness" ( Matthew 3:15, Hebrews 2:5-18, Hebrews 5:1-10, etc).

The same dynamics, IMHO, would also apply to things such as the Talmud and Rabbinical sources which are often quoted as authoritative, even if many weren't expressely mentioned in the Torah

When understanding the background of how the Quran developed, some things tend to make more sense as to how it developed as it did.

​

Things are not always as simple as they seem...

The practices of Islam are primarily derived of Semitic origins. Prostration and prayer has been around even before Jews starting with Hindus and panchang pranam. It is a pivotal action in any form of worship, even for me.

The exact origins of sajdaj in Islam though precedes Eastern orthodoxy in the region and goes more towards tradition Bedu customs which would have been derived from the Jews in that era

True - the concept of prostration in prayer is not something unique to Semitic culture since it was done around the world in other places ...although it was central in many eras of Judaic thought.


And with Islam, the ways that they reverse-engineered many things from what they saw in the Semitic as well as Christian culture of their day is pivotal if understanding why there are connections. There’s an excellent book I was blessed to read recently by one of my favorite scholars, Philip Jenkins---entitled "The Lost History of Christianity: The Thousand-Year Golden Age of the Church in the Middle East, Africa, and Asia — and How It Died"It was very brilliant in discussing the many experiences of believers, whether Jewish or Non-Jewish, who literally spread around the world with the Gospel of Messiah---and yet experienced many pains/difficulties despite the victories they had.

• "Part 1, Dr. Philip Jenkins, The Lost History of Christianity, Part 1 "

• Part 2, Dr. Philip Jenkins, The Lost History of Christianity, Part 2 on ...

• "YouTube - Seaver College Distinguished Lecture Series - Phillip Jenkins"

 

[EnemyOfReason]

Indeed - although there were things present than the Syrian orders since there were various forms of Christian thought which tended to get included as well (Based on forms of Christian ideas Mohommad was exposed to).

True - the concept of prostration in prayer is not something unique to Semitic culture since it was done around the world in other places ...although it was central in many eras of Judaic thought.


And with Islam, the ways that they reverse-engineered many things from what they saw in the Semitic as well as Christian culture of their day is pivotal if understanding why there are connections. There’s an excellent book I was blessed to read recently by one of my favorite scholars, Philip Jenkins---entitled "The Lost History of Christianity: The Thousand-Year Golden Age of the Church in the Middle East, Africa, and Asia — and How It Died"It was very brilliant in discussing the many experiences of believers, whether Jewish or Non-Jewish, who literally spread around the world with the Gospel of Messiah---and yet experienced many pains/difficulties despite the victories they had.

• "Part 1, Dr. Philip Jenkins, The Lost History of Christianity, Part 1 "

• Part 2, Dr. Philip Jenkins, The Lost History of Christianity, Part 2 on ...

• "YouTube - Seaver College Distinguished Lecture Series - Phillip Jenkins"

You have to take into fact that Islam is what it is. A copy of a copy of a copy.

It just takes inspiration from some heretical groups(like Gnostics) and others that aligned themselves to Judaism or Christianity and reformed a new theology from this.

Islam is not special in its message, it is special because it has lasted this long! .
When I departed from Islam I became an "Honest Muslim" like my idol Ali Dashti once did. He like myself just admitted that Islam is a parroted version of Judaic thought and Christian theology infused with heavy Arab Paganism.

I have no issues with this but obviously I am not a Muslim, just a Deist in this regard.


People seem to equate Islam as a religion outside of the Abrahamic loop when it is obviously not. It is just a poor attempt at "correcting" the supposed "errors" of Judaism and Christianity. Islam is just Judeo-Christianity part 3.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

You have to take into fact that Islam is what it is. A copy of a copy of a copy. It just takes inspiration from some heretical groups(like Gnostics) and others that aligned themselves to Judaism or Christianity and reformed a new theology from this.

Of course - hence, why it was noted that many are not surprised by the ways Islam has seemed similar to Christianity (from an Eastern sense) as well as Judaism at many points when seeing how it developed - with many things in Judaism itself coming from existing cultures surrounding it already (from the Sabbath to certain names of God and even the practice of using stones as memorials as well as many other things) and things which Islam picked up on since the culture Abraham/Semitic groups in the Bible came from were also present in other parts of the world that Islam later developed in. .

Of course, with Judaism itself where all things started, there was MUCH uniqueness with what occurred in it that NEVER happened before the Lord of Israel arrived on the scene - and thus, the "copy of a copy" analogy only goes so far

Islam is not special in its message, it is special because it has lasted this long! .

Yeah - although compared to the faiths that came before it, it's still the "New Kid on the Block" so to speak......and of course, religions are developed frequently with the passing of time (As well as experiencing extinction at various points when the right circumstances come about).

When I departed from Islam I became an "Honest Muslim" like my idol Ali Dashti once did. He like myself just admitted that Islam is a parroted version of Judaic thought and Christian theology infused with heavy Arab Paganism.

Good advice to keep in mind - as I've seen the same with others, more so from those seeing appreciation for the Quran from a historical perspective/appreciation of poetic literature rather than acting as if it was the FIRST of its kind to come out..

I have no issues with this but obviously I am not a Muslim, just a Deist in this regard.

Understood..

People seem to equate Islam as a religion outside of the Abrahamic loop when it is obviously not. It is just a poor attempt at "correcting" the supposed "errors" of Judaism and Christianity. Islam is just Judeo-Christianity part 3.

Much of what Islam in the Quran was based on was addressing what it deemed paganism in its day - and really coming against misrepresentations of what Orthodox Christianity was really about and never held to. There's really no escaping the many aspects connected to Abrahamic culture - but to idolize Islam as if it is what defines all in Abrahamic culture is another thing entirely.

And rather than being Judeo-Christianity part 3, it is really (as St. John of Damascus noted) another heresy that Christianity has had to address within the camp whenever others go for abberational theology/major on minors and minor on majors. It's not even close to being Judeo-Christianity - even though similarities are there.

 

[Moriah Ruth 777]

GXG,

Thank you for understanding. Between you and Slave you give lots of info. My brain can't keep up..lol..

Tomorrow is coming though. No work. Rest day for me.

Moriah Ruth

 

[EnemyOfReason]

GXG,

Thank you for understanding. Between you and Slave you give lots of info. My brain can't keep up..lol..

Tomorrow is coming though. No work. Rest day for me.

Moriah Ruth

*offers you my brain for the time being*

I have a nice squishy and spongy brain. Good for soaking up rhetoric

 

[Moriah Ruth 777]

Haha.. thanks Slave.. Your brain will do me fine..

 

[IamQueenSheba]

If you think the God of the universe cares about what HUMANS choose to call him in 2013, please pray and ask Him to occupy your time focusing on something else. His name is what He calls Himself. There are multiple references. God is God. Choose.

Writer of Heaven

 

[visionary]

What does it take for it to be considered idolatry?

 

[EnemyOfReason]

What does it take for it to be considered idolatry?

Islam can be quite contradictory especially when considering Sunniyyah fiqh. For example in the practice of tawwasul or intercession, Muhammad or a prophet is used in the same manner as Jesus or the imam in Shi'iyah.

So the concept of the Msuhrikun using deities to intercede upon Allah is deemed heresy yet at the same time Muslims do the same thing.

So in short, it is an entire hypocrisy.

 

[visionary]

I am like that... rarely do I remember the back and forth unless it has happened too many times.. and thus finally gets through my thick skull.. this is important to them.

 

[EnemyOfReason]

I am like that... rarely do I remember the back and forth unless it has happened too many times.. and thus finally gets through my thick skull.. this is important to them.

I post and forget sadly. I am just not that interested in arguing with people to remember the argument.

There are only 3 people int he world I shall eternally hate and that is Shaykh Mohammed Al-Arifi, Adam Deen and Bilal Phillips. That is my quota for hatred

 

[visionary]

I post and forget sadly. I am just not that interested in arguing with people to remember the argument.

There are only 3 people int he world I shall eternally hate and that is Shaykh Mohammed Al-Arifi, Adam Deen and Bilal Phillips. That is my quota for hatred

What did they do, to be worthy of such devotion?