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The Music Thread

Byfaithalone1

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There's an interesting discussion taking place in another thread on the subejct of music. I thought it might be good to move this topic out of that unrelated thread and into a new thread where more folks might get involved in the dialogue.

There are no evil instruments, that's a mistake that a lot of Christians make in an attempt to simplify things. Just like anything, the enemy perverts anything good to his own devices. Satan is especially devious when it comes to music. He well knows the power of music and is masterful in using it to manipulate people while they are unaware. As to what is good and what is not there are no easy rules. This is the difficulty. For me I always try to gauge how much the music is talking to my body rather than my soul. If the music has too much of a physical element I am very cautious.

Here's how I view it:

We are whole people filled with reason, drives, emotions and needs. Life is most fulfilling when we bring our whole selves into our experiences. Many activities cause us to engage more than one portion of our being. A moving sermon might move us to tears. A well written play might be immensely thought provoking. And a song might cause our toe to tap. When it does, I see no reason for concern.

BFA
 
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Princessdi

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Well said, BFA. Depending on the perception of each person a song can illicit any number of emotional, and physical, reactions. It varies from person to person. There is no cookie cutter response, because He did not use a cookie cutter to create us. We vary physically, emotionally, in our personal tastes and preferences. Some being more demonstrative than others. This can also vary between cultures. I am sure if asked we could all come up with one or two European cultures who are known to to be more emotional than others.

There's an interesting discussion taking place in another thread on the subejct of music. I thought it might be good to move this topic out of that unrelated thread and into a new thread where more folks might get involved in the dialogue.
Here's how I view it:

We are whole people filled with reason, drives, emotions and needs. Life is most fulfilling when we bring our whole selves into our experiences. Many activities cause us to engage more than one portion of our being. A moving sermon might move us to tears. A well written play might be immensely thought provoking. And a song might cause our toe to tap. When it does, I see no reason for concern.

BFA
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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Good thread for discussion :thumbsup:

My experience had been this....

Before I came back to the Lord 6 years ago, my preferred listening pleasure was extreme heavy metal. I always knew the Satanic overtness of black metal so steered clear of it, foolishly thinking I was alright as long as I didn't venture into this genre.

After I recommited myself to God,I gladly put away my old music but was still enticed by the rhythms and beats, so I started to listen to 'Christian metal' groups like Skillet, POD etc. As my faith increased and I gave myself more completely to God, my tastes started to change. What was once pleasurable rhythms and beats now were annoying and I could see the enemies stamp upon it. The symbolism used on the albums of some of these supposed professed Christian groups was overtly occultish so my desire was taken from me for their enticements. I next phased into 'Christian rock' groups like Casting Crowns and Third Day, believing that the lyrics and message was good so the rhythm and beats didn't matter, even though I still found felt a remnant of the same primal urge to rock my head and move my body as i had with secular heavy metal. The Holy Spirit kept gently nudging me to softer and more instumental tracks of these same groups and I soon found that the 'harder' rhythmed songs, even though the message was good, was not very appealing to my new found senses.
Today, I only seek intrumental with the occasional 4/4 soft background beat. The types of songs I like the best are the scripture songs, either acapella or with a simple guitar/pinao accompianment. The older hymns are good as well but I'll take a modern composed song first.

An interesting aside to this working of the Holy Spirit in me with regards to music is that I ended up rewriting a very popular song for my wife to sing. She was a semi professional singer, back in the day, and has a beautiful voice (ok, I'm biased but I'm not the only one who had said it) and she is always singing her way through her day. When I heard her singing the popular song, Halleluiah, it struck me how out of place the lyrics that Leonard Cohen wrote were to the uplifting chorus of Halleluiah. I printed off the lyrics and was shocked to see that they are more exalting Satan than God, so I set upon rewriting the lyrics to glorify Him while keeping the beautiful chorus and melody intact.
I will post up the lyrics for you all when I get home from work tomorrow...
 
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Soon144k

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This thread holds deep interest to me primarily because I have been a professional musician since I was 2 years of age (sang "The Lord's Prayer" solo unaccompanied at a wedding). I have gone through every permutation of music in the church from my Reformation days (3 man folk group) in college to conducting opera and symphony orchestras, to singing in a praise band at my church. I have conducted professional choral ensembles, worked as a tenor soloist at a variety of churches, and was ordained in the American Baptist Conference as a Minister of Music. I have taught (and still do) voice, piano, clarinet, sax, guitar (classical, folk and jazz), and work at an elementary and H.S. band director. Throughout all of my experience in music one thing has been made crystal clear to me and that is that everyone has an expert opinion about the suitability of music for worship based upon what they can relate too.

In college (late 60's) my musical esthetics teacher was of the opinion that anything that was not 'classical' in nature was not suitable for anyone to listen too, especially related to church music. I have been told in no uncertain terms by at least two pastors that the only kind of music suitable for church comes from a praise band. I have been excoriated for performing major choral works in Latin and German by people who believe that singing in a language other than English is 'of the devil'.

The thing all of these critics have in common is that they are sure THEY must be right in their assessment as to the validity of the music they listen to simply because they 'like' it. it doesn't matter that they step on the toes of other people in delivering their verdict because their opinion MUST be right, because they know they have the Holy Spirit in them and the Holy Spirit would never lead them astray. These are the same uneducated people that will play Debussy's "L'apres midi du faun" on Sabbath thinking that it is about a deer, when in reality it is about a mythical creature that is half man half goat, a 'faun', and in my opinion totally unsuitable for Sabbath worship.

What music will we listen to in Heaven? What music does God listen to now? For me it comes down to this: the kind of music that I listen to tends toward leading me closer to the truth about who God really is. If my mind is sent toward heavenly places then I know I am on the right track. If the pictures I see in my minds eye are of conflict and horror then I know I am on the wrong path.

I will judge no one as to what they 'like' and what is right for them to listen too. If I don't like it then I will find somewhere else to be while they listen to their music. Our best critic is a heart firmly established in the Love of God.
 
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Princessdi

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Who created music?

The Creator of ALL.

Is it possible to have music without rhythm?

Well, according to my coworker, there is...something call "Noise", I have yet to hear this "Noise", but I hear the most common complaint to be that it has no rhythm or beat. That said, most music has some form of rhythm to it.

Is it possible that rhythms and beats -- in and of themselves -- are entirely neutral?

Of course they are. They have no control over how they are utilize. Now, on the other hand....we have man............Well, I could go further because there is a powerful sermon in there, and I soooo get it, BFA!



BFA


P.S. Great points, Soon.

ITA!!!!


@ECR, Great testimony! However it is your testimony, about your issues with certain types of music and how they affected you your. That is not a shared experience with everyone, but there are those who share that experience, and there might be a very powerful ministry possibility with that group. You mgiht be instrumental helping them to overcome and tools you utilize, both spiritual and practical(Example: alcoholics don't go where they are drinking alcohol), not to fall back in to the trap.
 
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Byfaithalone1

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@ECR, Great testimony! However it is your testimony, about your issues with certain types of music and how they affected you your. That is not a shared experience with everyone, but there are those who share that experience, and there might be a very powerful ministry possibility with that group. You mgiht be instrumental helping them to overcome and tools you utilize, both spiritual and practical(Example: alcoholics don't go where they are drinking alcohol), not to fall back in to the trap.

Well said.

A member of my family has told me that jazz is a problem for him because of his history with alcoholism. Apparently, he associates jazz with bars and drinking. Because I am not alcoholic, this association means nothing to me. Although I respect his distaste for jazz and I don't play it around him, I am very comfortable listening to it when he isn't around. It simply does not have that affect on me.

BFA
 
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Soon144k

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There are five elements that make up most music: meter (beat), rhythm, melody, harmony, and lyrics (optional). There is nothing inherently evil about any of these elements, the evil comes in the way in which they are used.

Mozart was a hedonistic nehilist, yet he wrote some of the most glorious music for the church that has ever been written by anyone. My son is a classical trained pianist who is also a graduate composer of modern or new music and will soon be admitted to a masters and doctoral program in composition. For fun (and profit) he plays jazz on Monday nights at a coffee shop near where we live. Most of you would probably find it difficult to understand his music, but that does not mean that his music is evil or inherently 'bad'.

Each of us has his/her own ideas about what makes 'good' music, and that is appropriate because music is purely subjective and emotional even when it is composed with a high degree of technical skill. There is a difference for me between what is suitable for worship and music that is just for fun. But in my minds eye I can see Jesus and his Dad sitting in their A/V room tapping their toes to some Miles Davis just as easily as I can see them listening to the Messiah. I can hardly wait for Heaven where I will be able to study piano for 500 years with Bach, and then move on to study choral composition with Handel or Palestrina, and then maybe orchestration with Ravel. The possibilities are endless.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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Adding a neutron/neutral quality at a point of high speed and its corresponding instability has a revealed result of destruction.

There are only two angels over the mercy seat. They desire to understand. They are not neutral/indifferent.

Joe

What does this have to do with music Joe??
 
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Joe67

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What does this have to do with music Joe??
ECR,

Someone stated in a post that there is a position of neutrality/neutral in regard to the inherent qualities of music.

The walk of love has no place for neutrality in our actions. Our personal freedom/liberty in Jesus Christ toward God guides our love for our weaker members of the Body of Jesus. This is the Head.

In Jesus Christ, we are not a debtor to God, but we are a debtor to every man who is weaker than us, whether they are under law or without law.Man cannot be good alone. This is the Body.

Justification is personal, apart from the deeds/works of the law, giving peace with God in Jesus Christ. Thus we love God in heaven.

Salvation is community, through the workings of the spirit of grace in Jesus Christ giving us the spirit of ministry. Thus we love our neighbor as ourselves, upon earth.

Let not our personal justification quench the spirit of grace in labor for our weaker brethren and thereby neglect the community.

Apollos was powerful in the Scriptures and was eloquent, but when Paul desired that Apollos minister to one the churches, Apollos desired to go at a convenient time.

1 Cor 16:12
12 As touching our brother Apollos, I greatly desired him to come unto you with the brethren: but his will was not at all to come at this time; but he will come when he shall have convenient time. KJV

Joe
 
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Byfaithalone1

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The walk of love has no place for neutrality in our actions.

This isn't about the walk of love. This is the possibility that there are certain things that exist and are not necessarily bad or good in and of themselves. I submit that rhythms and beats aren't inherently bad or good in and of themselves. If anything, they are good in the sense that music and all of its components was created by God.

I'm sure we could discuss this more as it relates to music and explore it in greater detail.

BFA
 
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Joe67

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This isn't about the walk of love. This is the possibility that there are certain things that exist and are not necessarily bad or good in and of themselves. I submit that rhythms and beats aren't inherently bad or good in and of themselves. If anything, they are good in the sense that music and all of its components was created by God.

I'm sure we could discuss this more as it relates to music and explore it in greater detail.

BFA
BFA,

Gal 5:25
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. KJV

Joe
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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I tend to agree with Joe here... while there isn't anything inherently good or evil in things such as musical notes and rhythms, these things do not exist in a vacuum. The same could be said of letters of the alphabet. They are tied to other elements that evoke emotion... with letters... words; and with notes and rhythms... compositions. We need to be aware of the emotions that music can manifest. Even if you don't think you are affected, you still may be, unawares.

We are warned about being a stumbling block to brethren and I know, BFA, you alluded to this, talking about your family member. As a corporate body I believe things like music needs to be prayerfully selected. The new celebration services and music could very easily be a stumbling block to a brother or sister and just because it feels good and a majority like it, doesn't mean we should do it.

In regards to percussion, I find it interesting that we do not see drums being used by God's people in the Bible... could this be an unstated oversite? maybe, or it could be that God recognizes the danger in what these instruments can do. Think of the elements of a voodoo ritual or of other pagan/heathen music worship... drums plays a large, if not solitary, role in these activities. The physical nature of drums on our physiology is well documented and can cause people to be led into altered states of mind. Just as meditation and other eastern practices are not advisable for God's people, neither, in my opinion and experience, are drum beats; beyond the simple keeping of time.

Why give Satan any possible vantage ground... unless you feel you are above his powers of deception and persuation.
 
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Princessdi

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I can certainly understand you making that extremely small sacrifice for your family member, but as you say his experience is not a share done with you so you can listen to jazz. Your relative could not tell you that you shouldn't listen to jazz based on his personal experiences.


Well said.

A member of my family has told me that jazz is a problem for him because of his history with alcoholism. Apparently, he associates jazz with bars and drinking. Because I am not alcoholic, this association means nothing to me. Although I respect his distaste for jazz and I don't play it around him, I am very comfortable listening to it when he isn't around. It simply does not have that affect on me.

BFA
 
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tall73

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In regards to percussion, I find it interesting that we do not see drums being used by God's people in the Bible


They did appear to appreciate tambourines and dancing and cymbals however:

Exo 15:20 Then Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a tambourine in her hand, and all the women went out after her with tambourines and dancing.

Psa 149:3 Let them praise his name with dancing, making melody to him with tambourine and lyre!

Psa 150:4 Praise him with tambourine and dance; praise him with strings and pipe!

1Sa 10:5 After that you shall come to Gibeath-elohim, where there is a garrison of the Philistines. And there, as soon as you come to the city, you will meet a group of prophets coming down from the high place with harp, tambourine, flute, and lyre before them, prophesying.

1Ch 15:16 David also commanded the chiefs of the Levites to appoint their brothers as the singers who should play loudly on musical instruments, on harps and lyres and cymbals, to raise sounds of joy.

1Ch 15:27 David was clothed with a robe of fine linen, as also were all the Levites who were carrying the ark, and the singers and Chenaniah the leader of the music of the singers. And David wore a linen ephod.
1Ch 15:28 So all Israel brought up the ark of the covenant of the LORD with shouting, to the sound of the horn, trumpets, and cymbals, and made loud music on harps and lyres.
1Ch 15:29 And as the ark of the covenant of the LORD came to the city of David, Michal the daughter of Saul looked out of the window and saw King David dancing and rejoicing, and she despised him in her heart.


Jesus even put a little dancing in the parable of the prodigal son

Luk 15:25 "Now his older son was in the field, and as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing.



Anyone think that dancing and tambourines are a problem in church?
 
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Joe67

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They did appear to appreciate tambourines and dancing and cymbals however:

Exo 15:20 Then Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a tambourine in her hand, and all the women went out after her with tambourines and dancing.

Psa 149:3 Let them praise his name with dancing, making melody to him with tambourine and lyre!

Psa 150:4 Praise him with tambourine and dance; praise him with strings and pipe!

1Sa 10:5 After that you shall come to Gibeath-elohim, where there is a garrison of the Philistines. And there, as soon as you come to the city, you will meet a group of prophets coming down from the high place with harp, tambourine, flute, and lyre before them, prophesying.

1Ch 15:16 David also commanded the chiefs of the Levites to appoint their brothers as the singers who should play loudly on musical instruments, on harps and lyres and cymbals, to raise sounds of joy.

1Ch 15:27 David was clothed with a robe of fine linen, as also were all the Levites who were carrying the ark, and the singers and Chenaniah the leader of the music of the singers. And David wore a linen ephod.
1Ch 15:28 So all Israel brought up the ark of the covenant of the LORD with shouting, to the sound of the horn, trumpets, and cymbals, and made loud music on harps and lyres.
1Ch 15:29 And as the ark of the covenant of the LORD came to the city of David, Michal the daughter of Saul looked out of the window and saw King David dancing and rejoicing, and she despised him in her heart.


Jesus even put a little dancing in the parable of the prodigal son

Luk 15:25 "Now his older son was in the field, and as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing.



Anyone think that dancing and tambourines are a problem in church?

Yes, and to deny this form of worship existed among the 12 tribes would be blindness to their problems and ours.

It was not long after David's experience in bringing up the ark to Jerusalem and putting it in the tent that he had prepared, that his incidence with Bathsheba occurred. He saw her and took her just as he had taken many a man in combat, the same way that he killed Goliath and the lion and the bear as a youth. He told his servants to get her for him. Uriah was a gentile anyway. She did not resist the king.

The super moralists/legalists among the timid academic/religious leaders of the 12 tribes never forgot or forgave David's failure, just as it occurs among us today in government circles by timid leaders, religious and academic. Timid souls desire to commit pleasurable acts but are restrained because of the loss of human favor that will occur to them. They hide behind a tree in the midst of the garden. They are not restrained because of dishonor to the Lord.

Those who worship the Lord Jesus through the most aggressive forms of music, similar to those described in the quoted post, are experiencing an increasing divorce rate. They look so favorably upon their forms of worship that they insist that the divorce rate has no connection to their worship habits.

Yet, that is the thinking of us all, once the Lord has moved our thoughts beyond the stony ground vision of Jewish legalism. The seducing spirit of Greek philosophy teaches us that bodily habits cannot corrupt faith.

Then grace delivers us from this seduction, but not back into the righteousness of bodily deeds. Grace changes our entire purpose for being on this earth, not all at once, but little by little.

Faith comes to us in a moment and delivers our mind from counting our deeds as worthy of reward. We grow in grace little by little and its newness of purpose in service through the Spirit and cease being the Lord's counselor.

The Greek vision of faith involved a denial of any connection between faith and our bodily processes. This thinking was woven into the doctrine of the early christians and has been transmitted to us, their spiritual offspring.

A reaction set in after the 16th century Reformation in western christianity and groups began to form in the name of Jesus who equated bodily habits with holiness of heart, as the Jews did.

Eventually faith and grace were just words and bodily habits became the controlling standard of righteousness in the service of grace. Yet they could verbalize the doctrines of imputation and being justified by faith through the blood. Even these can be transmitted through education and absorbed into the intellect.

The Lord warned the 12 tribes through Moses, and the house of Judah through Isaiah, that he would speak to them through a people that would make them jealous. The Lord brought this to pass through the influence of the religious philosophy of the Athenian Greeks; Plato and Aristotle in particular. The Roman ethical and moral philosophers were just exponents of the nucleus of the Greek seeds.

We have been brought into this world in the midst of the conflict between the extremes of these two positions of thought, Jewish law of restraint against Greek human freedom. When we shift from one extreme to the other, we feel we have been converted/enlightened/born again. It is an education of the intellect, which has power in our thoughts and feelings.

The Jewish spirit is the rocky ground of everlasting righteousness through the deeds of the body. It is offended when trials arise and it will accuse.

The Greek spirit is the plant of faith with all the leaves but no fruit and it will despise ignorance and excuse sexual immorality in the name of human weakness.

It is true in both the Jewish mode and the Greek mode of religion and thought that "when I would do good, evil is present with me."

Rom 2:15-16
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. KJV

Matt 7:11
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children,
KJV

Joe
 
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tall73

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Dancing for the Lord is honourable... I wonder about it's practice in the sanctuary however.

I am not aware of any passages that speak of it in the sanctuary. The tambourine however was not only used there but there were folks appointed to the task. And the holy, yet joyful celebration of the bringing of the ark included dancing.

Personally I don't think I have ever danced in my life. But I wouldn't get too worked up over folks doing so.


Now dancing among the unmarried simply for sensual reasons doesn't sound like a good plan.
 
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tall73

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Yes, and to deny this form of worship existed among the 12 tribes would be blindness to their problems and ours.

It was not long after David's experience in bringing up the ark to Jerusalem and putting it in the tent that he had prepared, that his incidence with Bathsheba occurred.


Joe, did God ever have a problem with David's dancing?

He CLEARLY had a problem with the Bathsheba incident. Had David remained praising God instead of killing and taking women I doubt we would have an issue.
 
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