The Music Thread

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Who created music?

God.

Is it possible to have music without rhythm?

No.

Is it possible that rhythms and beats -- in and of themselves -- are entirely neutral?

No, because rhythms and beats - (and melodies) produce effects on moods and emotions. Independently of lyrics, they can change the meaning of a song, just as tone of voice, independently of words, can change the meaning of a statement.

For example, compare the haunting version of "Ring of Fire" sung by June Carter Cash with the cheerful version sung by Johnny Cash. The lyrics are the same, but they are two very different songs with very different meanings.

How many people actually thought that Bruce Springsteen's song "Born In the USA" was a petriotic song? It was because the beat and the rhythm trumped the lyrics.


BFA

 

[Joe67]

Who created music?

God.

Is it possible to have music without rhythm?

No.

Is it possible that rhythms and beats -- in and of themselves -- are entirely neutral?

No, because rhythms and beats - (and melodies) produce effects on moods and emotions. Independently of lyrics, they can change the meaning of a song, just as tone of voice, independently of words, can change the meaning of a statement.

For example, compare the haunting version of "Ring of Fire" sung by June Carter Cash with the cheerful version sung by Johnny Cash. The lyrics are the same, but they are two very different songs with very different meanings.

How many people actually thought that Bruce Springsteen's song "Born In the USA" was a petriotic song? It was because the beat and the rhythm trumped the lyrics.


BFA

Soldier,

Amen. A useful post.

The music speaks louder than the words, just as it did at Mt. Sinai. The trumpet sounded long and waxed louder and louder and the words were spoken out of the fire. Moses trembled and the people felt like they were dying and they cried out to Moses for relief.

And then a 1000 generations of time later:

Ezek 33:30-32
30 Also, thou son of man, the children of thy people still are talking against thee by the walls and in the doors of the houses, and speak one to another, every one to his brother, saying, Come, I pray you, and hear what is the word that cometh forth from the LORD.
31 And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, and they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they shew much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness.
32 And, lo, thou art unto them as a very lovely song of one that hath a pleasant voice, and can play well on an instrument: for they hear thy words, but they do them not. KJV

"Time, times and the dividing of time" is a testimony of the Spirit of Jesus concerning the music of God the Father in his Son, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, our Lord. When we understand this witness in its music, then the mystery of God will be finished in us (Jesus is the author/beginning and the finisher of our faith).

Theme, development and recapitulation.

Tonic chord, sub-dominant chord and dominant chord.

When we see these in Jesus Christ, then we see them in spirit and truth.

Get knowledge, then get wisdom and in all your getting, get understanding.

"Oh that the people had a heart to understand."

"God has not given you a heart to understand."

Understanding is the finishing gift of God, in Jesus Christ.

Forgiveness in childhood, victory in youth, fatherhood 1 John 2:12-14.

The poetry of the Lord. A shout, the voice of the archangel, the trump of God.

Joe

 

[Byfaithalone1]

No, because rhythms and beats - (and melodies) produce effects on moods and emotions. Independently of lyrics, they can change the meaning of a song, just as tone of voice, independently of words, can change the meaning of a statement.

When I used the word "neutral," I was not speaking to "a happy tone" versus "a somber tone." I was speaking to whether rhythms and beats are -- in and of themselves -- sinful or wrong. I submit that there can be no music without rhythms and beats. Rhythms and beats simply carry the song. They don't make it right or wrong.

For example, compare the haunting version of "Ring of Fire" sung by June Carter Cash with the cheerful version sung by Johnny Cash. The lyrics are the same, but they are two very different songs with very different meanings.

I don't think this speaks to the issue I was raising. Because I may not have done a great job of articulating it, let me offer an example to illustrate the point.

There are some folks who conclude that you could take a song that is perfectly wonderful, add different beats and rhythms to it, and the song becomes debased. For example, a person could take "Amazing Grace," add heavy drums, a strong bass line and an electronic guitar and suddenly a song that was once good has now become sinful.

In contrast with this point of view, I suggest that rhythm and beats are neutral. They are merely components of the landscape. It is what you build upon that landscape that makes the difference. All music has rhythm and beats. The type of rhythm and beat you favor is merely an issue of preference and not an issue of right or wrong.

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Gal 5:25
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. KJV
Joe

Though a great passage, it isn't relevant to my post. Rhythms and beats have no bearing on living and walking in the Spirit.

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

I can certainly understand you making that extremely small sacrifice for your family member, but as you say his experience is not a share done with you so you can listen to jazz. Your relative could not tell you that you shouldn't listen to jazz based on his personal experiences.

That's right, Princess. We do connect certain ideas to music, but these connections are very personal. We should not impose such personal preferences on others.

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Dancing for the Lord is honourable... I wonder about it's practice in the sanctuary however.

I wonder whether God called us to live disconnected lives. If it can be honorable to dance for the Lord, why would it matter where we're standing when we do it? Must congregational worship be sedate? Or can it be jubilant at times? What would we use as our basis for making such decisions? Perhaps by following Biblical examples?

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

They did appear to appreciate tambourines and dancing and cymbals however.

That's right, Tall. It isn't accurate to suggest that God's people did not use percussion instruments. They used drums and tambourines and cymbals and a host of other percussion instrucments, even in the context of worship.

BFA

 

[Joe67]

Though a great passage, it isn't relevant to my post. Rhythms and beats have no bearing on living and walking in the Spirit.

BFA

BFA,

Our faith is vain when our feet do not touch the ground.

Gal 3:13-14
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. KJV

The Gentiles' faith (times of the Gentiles) is a vain faith and thereby they are still in their sins, though they are blessed through Abraham and justification. The discipline of grace (by which they are saved from their sins) seems legalism to them. They despise the chastening of the Father as foolishness. The sufferings of Christ is foolishness to the Greek mindset and its abstract philosophical evaluations.

Joe

 

[Byfaithalone1]

BFA,

Our faith is vain when our feet do not touch the ground.

Gal 3:13-14
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. KJV

The Gentiles' faith (times of the Gentiles) is a vain faith and thereby they are still in their sins, though they are blessed through Abraham and justification. The discipline of grace (by which they are saved from their sins) seems legalism to them. They despise the chastening of the Father as foolishness. The sufferings of Christ is foolishness to the Greek mindset and its abstract philosophical evaluations.

Joe

How does this relate to the topic of the thread?

BFA

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

When I used the word "neutral," I was not speaking to "a happy tone" versus "a somber tone." I was speaking to whether rhythms and beats are -- in and of themselves -- sinful or wrong. I submit that there can be no music without rhythms and beats. Rhythms and beats simply carry the song. They don't make it right or wrong.

They are not in themselves right or wrong, but then again, lyrics can be right or wrong too, depending on the context. Rhythms and beats do a lot more than carry a song. They are at least as important as lyrics in conveying the songs meaning, and I think that the examples I cited show that well. I might venture to ask what does make a song right or wrong? Lyrics alone? If so, does this mean that music without lyrics is meaningless?

There are some folks who conclude that you could take a song that is perfectly wonderful, add different beats and rhythms to it, and the song becomes debased.

I have no doubt that it is possible.

For example, a person could take "Amazing Grace," add heavy drums, a strong bass line and an electronic guitar and suddenly a song that was once good has now become sinful.

This wouldn't necessarily be the case, especially if the basic melody and rhythm of the hymn as written by John Newton were preserved.

In contrast with this point of view, I suggest that rhythm and beats are neutral. They are merely components of the landscape. It is what you build upon that landscape that makes the difference.

Any architect will tell you that if you're going to build something, the landscape needs to provide a good foundation. The builders of the Leaning Tower of Pisa ignored this, look what happened.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

They are not in themselves right or wrong

I agree. That's what I meant when I wrote that they are neutral.

Rhythms and beats do a lot more than carry a song.

I'm not suggesting that they're unimportant, only that they're neutral. If you had access to the master sound mix for a song and you pulled away the vocals and all instruments except for the percussion, you would see that rhythm and beats do little more than carry a song. They don't communicate a message. Often, they don't even set a mood -- other components are needed for that purpose. For example, without other instruments, a drum beat does not tell you whether the song is written in a major or a minor key. It doesn't necessarily tell you the speed at which the lyrics will be delivered.

I might venture to ask what does make a song right or wrong? Lyrics alone? If so, does this mean that music without lyrics is meaningless?

Of all of the types of songs that I personally believe are "wrong," all of them are wrong because of the lyrics. I've yet to hear a strictly instrumental song that is morally wrong in and of itself. I just don't see what could be inherently wrong about the mixing of chords and rhythms?

I have no doubt that it is possible.

I'd be interested in learning of an example where an otherwise wonderful song could be altered to the point that it became debased.

This wouldn't necessarily be the case, especially if the basic melody and rhythm of the hymn as written by John Newton were preserved.

Yes, I'm talking about a situation where the lyrics are preserved as is the basic melody (although the timing might be altered slightly to fit within the new rhythm and beat). I understand that such an alteration might not fit within the preferences of some, but I don't see how such an alteration would result in something that is morally wrong.

Any architect will tell you that if you're going to build something, the landscape needs to provide a good foundation. The builders of the Leaning Tower of Pisa ignored this, look what happened.

Without a doubt, music with poor rhythm is disjointed and unpleasant. However, it isn't morally wrong.

BFA

 

[Joe67]

I agree. That's what I meant when I wrote that they are neutral.



I'm not suggesting that they're unimportant, only that they're neutral. If you had access to the master sound mix for a song and you pulled away the vocals and all instruments except for the percussion, you would see that rhythm and beats do little more than carry a song. They don't communicate a message. Often, they don't even set a mood -- other components are needed for that purpose. For example, without other instruments, a drum beat does not tell you whether the song is written in a major or a minor key. It doesn't necessarily tell you the speed at which the lyrics will be delivered.



Of all of the types of songs that I personally believe are "wrong," all of them are wrong because of the lyrics. I've yet to hear a strictly instrumental song that is morally wrong in and of itself. I just don't see what could be inherently wrong about the mixing of chords and rhythms?



I'd be interested in learning of an example where an otherwise wonderful song could be altered to the point that it became debased.



Yes, I'm talking about a situation where the lyrics are preserved as is the basic melody (although the timing might be altered slightly to fit within the new rhythm and beat). I understand that such an alteration might not fit within the preferences of some, but I don't see how such an alteration would result in something that is morally wrong.



Without a doubt, music with poor rhythm is disjointed and unpleasant. However, it isn't morally wrong.

BFA

BFA,

1 Cor 1:27-31.
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. KJV

This is the standard. Is Christ Jesus being made unto us, of God, wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption; that we should not glory in our flesh, but glory in the Lord?

Music, apart from lyrics, can move us to glory in our flesh.

Can music, apart from lyrics, move us to glory in the Lord and lead us to be made the 4 needful attributes of God in Jesus Christ?

This is not a question of our personal liberty in Christ; which does not exist in our flesh. It is a question of how to serve the Body of Christ in the newness of the spirit while walking in the flesh. Man cannot be good alone.

Let every thought be brought into captivity to the obedience of Christ.

Joe

 

[Byfaithalone1]

This is the standard. Is Christ Jesus being made unto us, of God, wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption; that we should not glory in our flesh, but glory in the Lord?

You've implied a connection between this principle and the concept of music. However, if there is a connection, it is because you have created it. That type of personal connection cannot be universally applied.

Music, apart from lyrics, can move us to glory in our flesh.

You attribute much to music for which music has no real power or authority. We assign our own meanings to music. This activity is deeply personal and cannot be transferred from one person to the next.

Let every thought be brought into captivity to the obedience of Christ.

Let every man follow the conviction of the Spirit and not the impositions of other men.

BFA

 

[Princessdi]

For as long as this has been a controversy, I am not sure why people fail to see that they are only tranferring their "experience" with music onto others. There can be shared experiences, like that of a favorite school song, or hymn sang at church, but they don't have to be, as in the activites that used to accompany the music, before giving you life to God. you cant' then come to church and warn everyone about the ills of music that osme may never even heard, or even like. Or if they like it are doing nothing like what you were doing.

What happens that at some point, we believe that salvation is "corporate"? Even worse, at what poin do we start to require more than God of others?

 

[Joe67]

Gal 5:5
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. KJV

Col 1:23
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
KJV

Let our feet stay on the ground and may we be not moved away from the hope of righteousness.

The music (lyrics/structure) that works in us to continue in the hope of the gospel is of the Spirit of Jesus, the spirit of prophecy. The testimony of Jesus gives us to look to the "blessed hope" of the appearing of our Lord Jesus the 2nd time without sin unto salvation. Then the end/goal of our faith will be accomplished, even the salvation of our souls by the grace that is to be brought unto us (the Body) at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 1:7-9
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. KJV

1 Peter 1:13
13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; KJV

Joe

 

[Byfaithalone1]

For as long as this has been a controversy, I am not sure why people fail to see that they are only tranferring their "experience" with music onto others. There can be shared experiences, like that of a favorite school song, or hymn sang at church, but they don't have to be, as in the activites that used to accompany the music, before giving you life to God. you cant' then come to church and warn everyone about the ills of music that osme may never even heard, or even like. Or if they like it are doing nothing like what you were doing.

What happens that at some point, we believe that salvation is "corporate"? Even worse, at what poin do we start to require more than God of others?

Great questions, Princess.

BFA

 

[Joe67]

Phil 1:6
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:KJV

Rev 14:2-3
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
KJV

Eph 5:18-21
18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. KJV

Rev 18:20-22
20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee;and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; KJV

Music is not for entertainment in the youthful who are fighting the good fight of faith. When it becomes pleasure seeking in our youthful christian experience, then, like every other gift, it corrupts in us and spoils our faith.

Music will lead the mature in Christ to sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb.

Rev 15:2-4
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. KJV

Joe

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

To say that music by itself has no power of influence is to deny the effect of frequency and resonance on our bodies. Do you know that the military has weapons of war based on Ultra Low Frequency sound waves? Google it if you need proof.

If these wave lengths of sounds waves can produce harmful, even fatal effects on the human body, don't you think other frequency's would have a physical effect as well??

 

[Princessdi]

ECR, this is the first right thing you have said. Music is very powerful, which is why it was such an important creation God made a special creature to embody all of it's power. Now He didn't stop there, He gave the beloved beings He shaped with His own hands this gift also.

Whatever music, rhythm, beat you have naturally is created in you by God. Satan can create nothing. It is our choice to used that talent, just like all others, for God. We don't allow the enemy to keep what he has stolen. So Satan takes music and try to twist the words and meaning to give praise and honor to himself. It doesn't make anything about music any less godly. BBFA was trying to make a point that you all missed, I believe. Music is neutral, inannimate, not able to control who uses it or their purpose for it. But you know something, the enemy does the same thing to use that he does with music, and God doesnt' discard us. He didn't leave us as hostages of the enemy. And guess what.....we more often tha not CHOSE to follow the enemy, to sin, to leave the path, to vilate our relationship with God. But you know just like Hosea's wife, and the prodigla son God, Our Father, I s lookg watiing for us to return, sometimes going out to bring our rebellious behinds back.

This is a really crazy discussion for the facts I state above. Plus, we dont' know how the music sounds in heaven. I know there are lots of trumpets and folks singing 24/7, (in repetition). Do you believe God, the CREATOR of ALL gives up and allows satan(His created being who made the wrong choice) to have any of His creations? No. That is why He sent His Son to die for us, and is coming back for us. Why He is coming to cleanse the earth of all effect of sin that allow satan to even lay claim to it. When we consider anything else, we infer that God is somehow subject and not as powerful as his own creations.

IOW, ALL music belongs to God, it is our choice how we want to use it. In the service of God or th enemy. Free will.

To say that music by itself has no power of influence is to deny the effect of frequency and resonance on our bodies. Do you know that the military has weapons of war based on Ultra Low Frequency sound waves? Google it if you need proof.

If these wave lengths of sounds waves can produce harmful, even fatal effects on the human body, don't you think other frequency's would have a physical effect as well??

 

[Joe67]

IOW, ALL music belongs to God, it is our choice how we want to use it. In the service of God or th enemy. Free will.

Princessdi,

Truly, thus there is not a middle ground where music is not serving either the god of this world or the true God of heaven, our Father.

Titus 1:15-2:1
15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. KJV

Joe