The most hated command of Jesus... (video)

[sparow]

It's interesting how things can become so turned around. The video suggests people should be working for God, but some people see that kind of thing as "working one's way to heaven", whereas working for money is heavily defended.

To me, that presents a logical problem. If "working your way to Heaven" doesn't apply to working for money, isn't that because working for money isn't seen as working for God? In other words, working for the system isn't seen as bad precisely because it is not work being done for God. If it was work being done for God, then it would be classified as "working your way to Heaven".

It's just like Jesus said, "Why do you call me Lord, but do not obey me"?

The argument "salvation by works verses salvation by faith" is a red herring; faith is works; Works can be good or bad; everyone who works receives wages; if not cash then grain or grapes. If a person works at sin the wage is death.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That was my conclusion, too. This is actually why the "salvation by works" doctrine exists in the first place; people who don't want to obey came up with a spiritually satisfying way to disregard those disagreeable teaching by claiming they didn't want to "work their way to heaven".

Of course, they see no problem with going off to work for mammon 40 hours per week, because supposedly Paul's ministry was all about people going out to make money.

The more I hear this mind of stuff from people, the easier it is to imagine the kind of frustration Jesus must have felt in his day, and it's probably why he said, "Why do you call me Lord, but do not obey me"?

Not sure why I have to watch a video every time I want to understand where you are coming from. Just tell me the verses you believe refutes the idea that a person cannot work at a job. Jesus was a carpenter and Paul was a tent maker.

"“Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need.” (Ephesians 4:28).

Surely a person's labor and do honest work and do it for the Lord, no? Receiving money can from an employer does not mean you have to be a slave to money or the system. You can dedicate all your money to God. Why do you think Paul was a tent maker? It was so that he would not charge for the gospel.

When Jesus says you cannot serve God and money, he is talking about your motivations of your heart. Remember, Jesus said render unto Ceasar the things that are Ceasars and unto God the things that are God's. Serving money would mean that you are living life to have an abundance of money so as to place your trust within it instead of God. Our trust has always got to be in God. For He is the one who provides. We are to seek ye first the Kingdom of God and all our basic needs will be met. Meaning, put God first in your life and your basic needs will be met (thru God providing a job for you to pay for your basic needs). For you have to put food on the table and have shelter and clothing. Cannot a person witness for Jesus at their job? If they are careful and pray about it, they can do so if they are innocent as doves and as wise as serpents. Cannot a person dedicate all their money at a 40 hour job per week towards God? Cannot a person pray and meditate on God's Word while they work?


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[Bible Highlighter]

You are not wrong about the issue of trying to be justified by works. I believe this was the purpose of the warning Paul gave in Ephesians 2:8-10. It's not a warning against trying to be good or actually doing good, but rather a warning against having a proud spirit about the good we do. It's a warning against boasting.

Look at verse 10. He goes on to say that we are created to do good works; God expects us to walk in them. Obviously, if someone has a bad attitude about their good works, then that needs to be addressed, but pointing out that Jesus expects obedience is hardly boasting.

What is really happening when people complain about salvation by works is that they just don't want to do what the command tells them to do, so they've come up with a convenient doctrine to excuse their disobedience. It probably sounds very good to them in their own head, but when it's expressed in words on paper (or screen) it just comes across as irrational and inconsistent.

These same people will say we must go to church, that we must read the Bible, that we must pray, that we must worship, that we must go to work for Caesar so we can pay our taxes and tithes, and that we must obey the laws of the land to be right with God.

But when it comes to some personal discipline, like confronting greed, suddenly they're not under the law and their not saved by works. The motivations become clear enough over time.

I do believe this is why Jesus asked, "When I return to the Earth, will I find any faith at all"?

Ephesians 2:8-9 is actually saying that we are saved by grace thru faith without works. Ephesians 2:8-9 is talking about Initial Salvation or Ultimate Salvation. Ephesians 2:8-9 is not talking about Sanctification (Which is the next stage or step in the Salvation Process). James 2:17 and James 2:24 is talking about Sanctification (Which is a work of God done thru the believer and it is not something that you do on your own power alone). So I can say we are not saved by works because it is the Lord working in me. Salvation is always been in God. For that is why Jesus said, "With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." (Matthew 19:26).


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[RaymondG]

Hey OP. Great videos. Love topics and ideas that make you think. Come.....let us reason together....

How do you suppose one, who agrees 100% with the video, would accomplish the recommendations within? Should we sell everything and live on the street? Should we join small communities with no electricity and stay there still we die? Im genuinely confused as to the methods of procedure. Please tell us how to obey these commands according to the video.

I, for one, think forsaking all earthly responsibility is easy. Very few people can say they love working 40 hrs a week, or love paying bills. It is easy to file bankrunptcy and not have to pay the bills we accumlulated. Be a bumb for Jesus?? Im in...that is easy. But what if He was talking about something else, something harder to give up?

Our beliefs and intellect.... You can just scroll through this thread and see how hard it is to give up your beliefs and preconceived ideas about the words and stories of the bible. This is what I believe God wants us to forsake. Let go of what you think, so that, through God, you can Know. This is what held the Pharisee back....they couldnt forsake their beliefs and teachings. Peter! cast your net to the right! Peter was thinking....Im the fisherman Jesus! I know this sea is empty!...But I'll forsake my own beliefs....for You...now we eating fish for the next 9 days. Lazurus is Dead and stinking! It is pointless to roll away this stone! no pulse, no breathe, flesh stinking, means go-on with the rock moving foolishness. wait, but What if i forsake my intellect and my belief and by faith move this stone anyway....I pass from death to life....

I say give Cesar all the money you can work for....But give God your heart, your mind...your soul. In the flesh, no man can please God....whether the flesh is in a mansion or a tent on the corner. God is Spirit, and in spirit must we worship him. but wait....this all sounds like foolishness. I agree...it does.

 

[truefiction1]

Nah.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

If you believe in salvation by faith in hope and love, then no command need be hated, since no sin is imputed. If you believe in salvation by works and obedience to the commandments, then I would agree that this commandment, and the commandment against the lusts of the world, is indeed the most hated. This is because for most legalists, this one idea strips them of the self-righteousness and exposes them before men as wretched sinners like everyone else. Usually the legalists will then attempt to excuse their disobedience, and their lusts of the world, by claiming they don't have to be obedient to this. But, isn't that the way it always works? Legalists always move the goal to where they stand to give the illusion of obedience to others, and cloak their own ungodly lusts which consume them: lust for money, lust for worldly things; fancy cars, nice houses, fancy clothing, jewelry, trinkets, collectibles, antiques, sneakers, gaming consoles, Iphones, the latest product which they must have. The newest, fastest computer. Lust without end.

Hi JH. Thanks for sharing these well-thought comments.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

I give the video 8 out of 10.

Thanks, sparow.

most think "love thy neighbour" replaces every other commandment God has given; including "come out of her my people".

We might have different ideas of what "come out of her my people" means in practical terms, but I agree that "love thy neighbor" does not replace the other commands so much as the other commands show us how to love our neighbor.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

How do you suppose one, who agrees 100% with the video, would accomplish the recommendations within? Should we sell everything and live on the street? Should we join small communities with no electricity and stay there still we die? Im genuinely confused as to the methods of procedure. Please tell us how to obey these commands according to the video.

Hi Raymond. I think it takes a combination of sincerity, wisdom, and listening. What, and how, did Jesus and his followers do it? Look at the instructions in Luke 10 and Matthew 10.

When the early Christians forsook all by the thousands, one of the first things they did with the profits was to make sure everyone in the community was provided for.

Next, they participated in social programs and organized outreach teams. Eventually they became known as those who have "turned the world upside down".

Find other people with a like mind who can help you. While it is possible to live by faith on your own, we're supposed to do it together. When you're really, really trying to live by faith, suddenly all those commands of Jesus become very significant, because his teachings are the basis for how to live by faith.

Godly counsel can be helpful, but in the end each individual must work it out between God and themselves. Ask, seek, knock; if you pray for God's guidance on what to do and he says, "forsake all" don't think he has given you a stone or a scorpion.

Where God guides, he provides.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

I say give Cesar all the money you can work for....But give God your heart, your mind...your soul.

Jesus said we should give to Caesar what belongs to him, and to give to God what belongs to him.

It's a trick statement. Remember the context of the Caesar comment is that Jesus was being tempted to become tangled in his words. He was not giving general teaching about paying taxes.

The trick which got him out of the tangle is, after we've given to God what belongs to him, what is left for Caesar? For those loyal to the worldly system, they got their answer, and they will continue using Caesar to justify their dependence on the system 'till the day they die, all the while feeling comforted that, "Jesus said so".

For those loyal to God, they also got their answer.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Ephesians 2:8-9 is actually saying that we are saved by grace thru faith without works. Ephesians 2:8-9 is talking about Initial Salvation or Ultimate Salvation.

And how does verse 10 of Ephesians 2:8-10 fit in? It says we are created to do good works that we should "walk in them". I mean, okay, if you think you shouldn't do good works to prove yourself to God, that's fine. But what about just doing them because that's what we're supposed to do?

That is what the video is teaching. Jesus expected obedience from us because he knows better than us. We hold on to and cling to our material possessions, but Jesus could see that our clinging stops us from growing spiritually.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

The argument "salvation by works verses salvation by faith" is a red herring; faith is works; Works can be good or bad; everyone who works receives wages; if not cash then grain or grapes. If a person works at sin the wage is death.

For the most part I think you are right. I would say that the teaching about our attitude toward works is important and I have no problem with addressing problems in this area. Sometimes we do have problems with pride and thinking of ourselves more highly than we should. There's no point in denying that and it's good practice to keep coming back to this issue and asking, "am I being proud about my good works"? It should be habitual for us to do this with ourselves.

However, I don't see that anyone on this thread, or anyone in the video was being proud or boasting about their own obedience. The video gives information on what the teaching is, why the author believes it's being ignored my the majority of Christianity today, and why it's important to go about correcting that problem.

For people to say that it is teaching salvation by works just comes across as a knee-jerk reaction. If the love of mammon (money and the things money can buy) really is the root of all evil, then it stands to reason that confronting this root will not only be tricky but incredibly difficult for us, too.

 

[miknik5]

I think you are misusing that parable. All the rich young man had to do to receive eternal life was keep the commandments; he only needed to give everything away and follow Jesus if he wanted to be perfect.

He kept the commandments. He wanted to hear the
G. O. O. D. teacher that he had nothing to concern himself with

But when the
G. O. O. D. Teacher told him to give away his "treasures" and follow HIM...that he couldn't do

Because he had his eyes on the wrong "treasure" to begin with

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Because he had his eyes on the wrong "treasure" to begin with

Which wasn't the man's special, personal problem. Check out Luke 12:33 .

Having our eyes on the wrong treasure is something all people struggle with.

 

[now faith]

2 Thessalonians: 3. 10. For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. 11. For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies. 12. Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.

The Love of money is the root of all evil.

3 John: 1. 2. Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

1 Corinthians: 9. 13. Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the alter are partakers with the alter? 14. Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

Malachi: 3. 8. Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. 9. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. 10. Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. 11. And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts. 12. And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts.

Luke: 6. 38. Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

Our Lord was a Carpenter before he began his ministry, do you suppose he worked for nothing?

God and other valuable gifts were given to Mary and Joseph, post care for the child and not house God's son without any provision.

 

[RaymondG]

Hi Raymond. I think it takes a combination of sincerity, wisdom, and listening. What, and how, did Jesus and his followers do it? Look at the instructions in Luke 10 and Matthew 10.

When the early Christians forsook all by the thousands, one of the first things they did with the profits was to make sure everyone in the community was provided for.

Next, they participated in social programs and organized outreach teams. Eventually they became known as those who have "turned the world upside down".

Find other people with a like mind who can help you. While it is possible to live by faith on your own, we're supposed to do it together. When you're really, really trying to live by faith, suddenly all those commands of Jesus become very significant, because his teachings are the basis for how to live by faith.

Godly counsel can be helpful, but in the end each individual must work it out between God and themselves. Ask, seek, knock; if you pray for God's guidance on what to do and he says, "forsake all" don't think he has given you a stone or a scorpion.

Where God guides, he provides.

you didnt address the meat of my post.....I'll take it as a sign that i made you think.... and that is good enough

 

[Endtime Survivors]

you didnt address the meat of my post.....I'll take it as a sign that i made you think.... and that is good enough

Yes, you did make me think. What did you think about the comments I posted as a result of my thinking

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Our Lord was a Carpenter before he began his ministry

Even if this is accurate, he obviously gave up everything to start his ministry. We're supposed to take up our cross and follow him.

 

[RaymondG]

Yes, you did make me think. What did you think about the comments I posted as a result of my thinking

I respect the opinions and views of all. And i dont call anything right or wrong. I was once a very knowledgeable person....But God gave me 2 seats one day and showed me that my wisdom was foolishness to Him, and He said that, when I come In his presence, I should "take no thought"s. He told me to go to the upper room that's "Fully furnished." I use to go there with my super-bowl e-z chair and got kicked out everytime. The problem is.....I still thought i was inside....but i was "without."

Anyway, I've learned to value everyone opinion great or small, short or tall, in church or in the mall......ok I'll stop here.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And how does verse 10 of Ephesians 2:8-10 fit in? It says we are created to do good works that we should "walk in them". I mean, okay, if you think you shouldn't do good works to prove yourself to God, that's fine. But what about just doing them because that's what we're supposed to do?

You misunderstand me. I believe in the biblical teaching of "Conditional Salvation." I am strongly against Once Saved Always Saved. I also believe certain sins can separate a believer from God (like murder, hate, theft, adultery, lying, and idolatry, etc.) if they are not repented of within this life. Disobedience to certain of the Lord's Commands will lead to a believer's destruction of both their body and soul in Gehenna or the Lake of Fire by the Lord. God is not a respecter of persons.

Ephesians 2:8-9 deals with Justification, which is INITIAL or ULTIMATE salvation (Which is not in conflict with the second stage of salvation which is "Sanctification." Verse 10 (Ephesians 2:10) deals with Sanctification (Which is CONTINUED salvation). Sanctification is the process of the Lord working in you to do His will according to the Bible (i.e. To obey the Commands in the New Testament).

Jesus saves both in Justification and in Sanctification.

Justification =
(a) Belief on Jesus as one's Savior
(b) Belief that Jesus died on the cross for your sins and that He had risen 3 days later on your behalf.
(c) Ask Jesus to forgive you of your sins.

Justification does not take a huge effort on your part. Hence, why it is more like a gift than it is a work (Ephesians 2:8-9). Justification is how we gain entrance into God's Kingdom. Paul many times argued against "Circumcision Salvationism" that was a part of the Old Covenant Laws or Commands it was not a part of the New Covenant Laws or Commands (See Galatians 5:2, Romans 3:1, and Ephesians 2:11). A new person coming to the faith for the first time can have the assurance of salvation right here and right now by believing in Jesus as their Savior, and that He died for their sins (and He was risen 3 days later on their behalf) and by asking Jesus to forgive them of their sins. Justification is something that continues thru a believer's life. A believer will always trust in Jesus as their Savior, and they will confess any known sin to Jesus so as to remain forgiven (1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9). For how do you get clean or forgiven? Do you go out and do a good work to get clean or forgiven? No. You confess your sins to the Lord to get clean or forgiven. It is ultimately His grace that saves (without any work done on your part). But does that mean we do not have to lift a finger for God? Surely not. Sanctification is also a necessary part of the Salvation Process (Because it shows that Jesus lives inside of you). Sanctification is the next step or stage in a person's salvation or walk with God.

Sanctification =
(a) Allowing Jesus to do the good work in your life (This means that Jesus will help you to obey His Word, i.e. the Commands in the New Testament). Jesus says in John 15:5 you can do nothing without me. So this is not something you can boast in all by yourself. Yes, you have to cooperate with the Lord in taking action in obeying the Lord, but we have to realize that it is not us alone trying to take action in obeying God. God desires to do the good work in you. For there is none good but God. So we are merely surrending to the Lord and the good work He desires to do in us. For it is why the Scriptures say that the 24 elders had cast their crowns down before Jesus. For it was Jesus working within them. So we cannot pat ourselves on the back and or look in the mirror in the bathroom and shout, "Hey everybody! Come and see how good I look!" All the glory goes to the Lord Jesus Christ. For Jesus is actually the source of our salvation. For 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life. So when a person asks you, "Are you saved by your own works?" Your reply should be a... "no." For we are saved by the works of the Lord done within us. Yes, we have to obey and cooperate with God, but we cannot take credit for the goodness of the Lord that can move within our lives (By our free will cooperation). Jesus saves! It is not ourselves.

That is what the video is teaching. Jesus expected obedience from us because he knows better than us. We hold on to and cling to our material possessions, but Jesus could see that our clinging stops us from growing spiritually.

No. The video is wrong for these three reasons.

(a) It neglects to teach God's grace in balance with Sanctification (Which is wrong).
(b) It wrongfully teaches Man Directed Works Salvationism and not God Directed Works Salvationism.
(c) It wrongfully teaches that you need to quit your job (and or stop using money) to be a disciple and or to be saved. This is wrong because Jesus never asked us to do these things. Yes, certain disciples did give up their jobs to follow Jesus. But this was when He was with them physically. Jesus never said to the disciples that they had to give up their jobs, their possessions, and or to stop using money so as to be saved. Jesus says you simply cannot serve God and money; Meaning, you cannot make both God and money the focus of your life. Jesus did not mean we cannot use money or to work at a job. For Jesus said render unto Ceasar the things that are Ceasar's. Also, Paul was a tent maker and he made money from being a tent maker so as not to charge for the gospel. Meaning he worked at a job so as to feed, and provide for himself the necessary things in order to preach the gospel. Yes, people can get caught up with materialism these days. I will admit that. Jesus said put your treasures in Heaven. But that does not mean we cannot have basic things here so as to be more efficient for the Lord. For if the author of the video was really radical, he would shun the use of a computer because they are expensive pieces of equipment. They are not really needed to preach the gospel. A person can preach the gospel the old fashioned way (i.e. by word of mouth). If the author of the video does not own a computer and they go to a library to preach, they are condoning that it is okay for the library to indulge in buying something expensive, as long as it is not themselves buying such a thing. This would be wrong if they think that owning material possessions is wrong. For they would not want even unbelieving sinners to be tempted by having material possessions like a computer (i.e. the library people). So the author is being hypocritical. He needs to take down his videos and stop using computers that are expensive pieces of equipment (Which can be considered as material possessions). Also, if the author is against the use of money, then he also needs to get rid of anything he owns that was produced by the monetary system. He needs to make his own clothes and toilet paper and cleaning products and hunt for his own food and build his own shelter (all from materials that cannot be purchased by money). For any support of the money system means you are a part of it.


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[Endtime Survivors]

Anyway, I've learned to value everyone opinion great or small, short or tall, in church or in the mall......ok I'll stop here.

I appreciate your contributions here, even though we've disagreed on some of them. Thanks for participating, and please feel free to continue sharing whatever thoughts you may have on this topic.