The Moral Law

Clare73

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There is no guilt for one's inherited fallen nature (Eze 18:20), there is guilt for one's personal sin committed due to one's fallen nature.
There is no personal guilt of sin to infants. There is guilt of Adam's sin imputed to all mankind (Ro 5:18-19).
Yes, we agree on this! Thank you.
Ro 5:15: ". . .many died by the trespass (not by the sin nature) of the one man."
Ro 5:18-19:
18) Just as. . .so also. . .
19) So also, through the obedience of the one man the many (in contrast to the one) will be made righteous (by imputation, Ro 3:22-24),
just as through the disobedience of the one man, the many (in contrast to the one) were made sinners (by imputation. . .therefore,
so also made righteous by imputation).

The guilt/sin imputed at man's beginning is removed by the justification/righteousness imputed at man's belief.
We agree on some of this also. I just don't agree that the "result of one trespass was condemnation for all men by imputation."
Do you understand that imputation is reckoning, crediting, accounting, imputing?

Do you agree that is, however, what Paul teaches above--just as. . .so also--both sin and righteous are acquired by us in the same way,
righteousness being acquired by crediting/accounting/imputing (Ro 3:22-24) and, therefore, sin necessarily being acquired by crediting/accounting/imputing in order to be in the same way as is righteousness?
I see solid but limited agreement. It's always good to remind ourselves of the things we agree on. The areas of darkness where our beliefs are a little murky can be set aside until God can straighten all of us out.
So you disagree with Paul?
 
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RandyPNW

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Do you understand that imputation is reckoning, crediting, accounting, imputing?

Do you agree that is, however, what Paul teaches above--just as. . .so also--both sin and righteous are acquired by us in the same way,
righteousness being acquired by crediting/accounting/imputing (Ro 4:22-24) and, therefore, sin necessarily being acquired by crediting/accounting/imputing in order to be in the same way as is righteousness?

So you disagree with Paul?
I don't understand where you are missing what I've said, although the language I'm using requires some focus and attention to detail. I do *not* agree with how you represent Paul's language. Paul did *not* say that Adam's guilt or Sin is being "imputed" to later generations. What Paul said I agree with, but he did not say what you claim he said.

I fully understand what "imputation" means. That is the whole reason why I disagree with your use of the word with respect to imputing one person's guilt to another person, ie imputing Adam's sin to the sins of his offspring.

Paul did not argue imputation "in the same way," as you argued. As I previously told you, he argued *similarity with distinct differences.* Are you ignoring that?

What is "similar" is the extension from one to many. In Adam's case it was the extension from his sin to the sins of many, though not by "imputation."

In Christ's case it was the extension from his righteousness to the righteousness of many, not through imputation of his righteousness but by actual transferral of his righteousness, via the Holy Spirit.

Where "imputation" enters into this, as some creeds state it, is that Christ "imputed" his *flawless record* for purposes of atonement. But the righteousness itself, or the spiritual virtue of Christ, is being actually *transferred,* and not just "imputed."

Apparently you don't read my arguments, or don't understand them. Repeating the same arguments over and over again will not resolve anything. So I'm not really going any farther with this--just repeating myself. You'll have to revisit what I've already said if you wish to continue this conversation.
 
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Clare73

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I don't understand where you are missing what I've said, although the language I'm using requires some focus and attention to detail. I do *not* agree with how you represent Paul's language. Paul did *not* say that Adam's guilt or Sin is being "imputed" to later generations. What Paul said I agree with, but he did not say what you claim he said.
Well, at last!
The problem is you don't agree with "how I present" Paul's language!

1) That I may see what what you think Paul is stating, will you please explain Paul's meaning in Ro 5:18-19, including all that, and being consistent with what, he states and its necessary import, keeping in agreement with all the NT?
Keeping in mind that his language is complete parallelism, so yours must be also.
I fully understand what "imputation" means. That is the whole reason why I disagree with your use of the word with respect to imputing one person's guilt to another person, ie imputing Adam's sin to the sins of his offspring.

Paul did not argue imputation "in the same way," as you argued. As I previously told you, he argued *similarity with distinct differences.* Are you ignoring that?
The similarities being the manner of operation (imputation), the differences being the opposing outcomes (eternal death, eternal life).

He presents contrasting parallels, they being "parallels" because they operate in the same way (imputation),
and "contrasting" because they have opposite outcomes (eternal death and eternal life).
What is "similar" is the extension from one to many. In Adam's case it was the extension from his sin to the sins of many, though not by "imputation."

In Christ's case it was the extension from his righteousness to the righteousness of many, not through imputation of his righteousness but by actual transferral of his righteousness, via the Holy Spirit. Where "imputation" enters into this, as some creeds state it,
What creeds?
is that Christ "imputed" his *flawless record* for purposes of atonement. But the righteousness itself, or the spiritual virtue of Christ, is being actually *transferred,* and not just "imputed."
So let's look at what the NT states in that regard.
Definition of its words determine its actual meaning.

Righteousness/justification (dikaiosis) = a declaration of "not guilty," a sentence of acquittal, a legal finding of right standing with the Court (debt paid, time served, reconciled), a forensic righteousness only; i.e., in relation to the Court, not in relation to his person.

Just as the criminal is declared justified (made right with the Court) when his sentence is served,
he is in legal right standing with the court; i.e., not guilty, time served, deb paid, but it has no bearing on his personal status.

Actual righteousness (sanctification) is through obedience in the Holy Spirit, which leads to righteousness, leading to holiness (Ro 6:16, 19, 22).

So by Greek definition, the righteousness imputed in justification is not Christ's actual righteousness (sanctification), but a legal forensic righteousness of right(eous) standing with God's (Court of) Justice, and which is imputed/credited/accounted to one through faith (Ro 3:28).

2) Two kinds of righteousness: justification (Ro 4:22-24) and sanctification (Ro 6:16, 19, 22).
That being the case, Christ's sanctification (holiness) is not being "transferred" to the believer in justification.
Personal righteousness (sanctification) is not "transferred," it is acquired only through obedience in the Holy Spirit (Ro 6:16, 19, 22).
 
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Clare73

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Wonder why people see walking around naked today as immoral or sinful yet A&E did it. It didn't become sinful until A&E took it upon themselves to decide it was so. They were oblivious to their own 'sins' prior to that.
Nakedness is not a sin, but since the fall of man, it makes man ashamed and wanting to cover himself.
Clothing of the body is now the human norm in the world, excepting for the uncivilized.
 
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RandyPNW

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Well, at last!
The problem is you don't agree with "how I present" Paul's language!
Right. I do not see the language of "imputed righteousness," but only the insinuation that Christ's righteous *record* is being imputed to the believer. That believer actually has Christ in him, which for me means that the believer actually participates in the virtues of Christ (2 Pet 1.4). For you, this is imputation, suggesting that something is being credited where the believer actually participates.

On this matter you may see this more from the Protestant perspective, and I may be seeing it more from a traditional Catholic perspective. However, I'm not Catholic, and simply can't agree with how many Protestants view it, since the language does not agree with how they're using it.
1) That I may see what what you think Paul is stating, will you please explain Paul's meaning in Ro 5:18-19, including all that, and being consistent with what, he states and its necessary import, keeping in agreement with all the NT?
Keeping in mind that his language is complete parallelism, so yours must be also.
I'll do it again....
Rom 5.18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Pattern:
Adam extends Sinfulness to his Offspring
Christ extends Righteousness to his followers

Rom 5.15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Difference:
Adam's Trespass led to the death of Many.
Christ's Grace leads to endowment of his Gift to Many.

Adam's Trespass did *not* get imputed to Many. It was his Trespass alone, even though the Sin Nature was inherited by Many from him..

By contrast, Christ's Grace both imputes a sinless record and endows blameless righteousness upon his followers. I don't personally believe that the righteousness is strictly imputed, but more, imparted and participated in by us.

In sum, Adam and Christ have similar tracks, but not always parallel. Adam extends something that is not imputed, but something his offspring participates in, including Sin and Death. Christ extends something that his followers participate in, but also has something imputed to it that justifies them for Eternal Life.

The similarities being the manner of operation (imputation), the differences being the opposing outcomes (eternal death, eternal life).
This is what we're specifically disagreeing on. The "similarities" are not the manner of operation by imputation, but rather the common element of extension from one to many. In the 1st case, Adam is one man extending Sin and Death to many. In the 2nd case, Christ is one man extending Justification and Eternal Life to many. Imputation takes place only with Christ for the purpose of Justification, which is different with Adam, where Justification does *not* take place.
He presents contrasting parallels, they being "parallels" because they operate in the same way (imputation),
and "contrasting" because they have opposite outcomes (eternal death and eternal life).
I show the parallels above. They are extensions from one man to many. This is a similar pattern, but not an exact pattern, since in the case of Christ, Justification takes place.
What creeds?
I was referring to general beliefs, which are contained in Christian creeds. They all assume in our "Salvation" that we will be judged for our works, and thus infer our participation in the righteousness of Christ beyond Christian Justification. I suppose I was also referring to the creeds of Protestantism, which claim that Justification is by Faith and that this leads to repentance and sanctification by Christ.

However, Protestants, in my view, overdo this idea of imputation, as you do. Imputation suggests a passive demonstration of Christ's righteousness in the believer, whereas the believer, to be truly righteous, must be an active participant. Righteousness is not merely "imputed" but an active process of sanctification.

Herein is the problem I think you're having, and which others have as well, thinking that our "active participation" makes us participants in our own redemption. That is not true, obviously. Justification and Salvation implies that we are changed into New Creatures, and therefore are able to do good works and be righteous.

And so, I don't like a strict reference to "imputation" with respect to Christ's Work, since it reduces our participation to a merely passive role, or at least it seems so to me.
So let's look at what the NT states in that regard.
Definition of its words determine its actual meaning.

Righteousness/justification (dikaiosis) = a declaration of "not guilty," a sentence of acquittal, a legal finding of right standing with the Court (debt paid, time served, reconciled), a forensic righteousness only; i.e., in relation to the Court, not in relation to his person.

Just as the criminal is declared justified (made right with the Court) when his sentence is served,
he is in legal right standing with the court; i.e., not guilty, time served, deb paid, but it has no bearing on his personal status.

Actual righteousness (sanctification) is through obedience in the Holy Spirit, which leads to righteousness, leading to holiness (Ro 6:16, 19, 22).

So by Greek definition, the righteousness imputed in justification is not Christ's actual righteousness (sanctification), but a legal forensic righteousness of right(eous) standing with God's (Court of) Justice, and which is imputed/credited/accounted to one through faith (Ro 3:28).

2) Two kinds of righteousness: justification (Ro 4:22-24) and sanctification (Ro 6:16, 19, 22).
That being the case, Christ's sanctification (holiness) is not being "transferred" to the believer in justification.
Personal righteousness (sanctification) is not "transferred," it is acquired only through obedience in the Holy Spirit (Ro 6:16, 19, 22).
You're confusing Justification and Sanctification. To be sanctified we have to choose to be set apart from worldly things by putting into action the holy works of Christ.

Sanctification, therefore, is not purely a passive experience, though Christ alone provided it. It is also an active obedience on the part of the believer.

It is not just "imputed," but is actually "streamed" through a person's will, making us active participants. Faith, Salvation, and Sanctification are all in a sense "imputed." But since they also include our active participation, I don't like to use the word in an all-encompassing way. We activate Faith in response to Christ's word. We act righteous in response to Christ's work of Salvation and Sanctification on our behalf.

My brother is a minister and very well-read on these matters, and as a good Protestant disagrees with my view, as well. So I understand your concerns. I just don't believe the language holds up. There is an element of passivity, and an element of participation. A doctrine of exclusive "imputation" does not allow for this active participation, as I see it. And I feel it necessary to emphasize our active participation and our righteousness, just as James did when he said "Faith without Works is dead."

When Paul said that Christ is our life, he did not mean to exclude our participation in him. We choose to receive Christ in response to his gracious word to us. And then by that same word we can exercise all of the Salvation that God has provided for us, should we choose to accept Christ.
 
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timothyu

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Nakedness is not a sin, but since the fall of man, it makes man ashamed and wanting to cover himself.
The fact they are ashamed shows they are putting their will to work. Had they not done so in the first place none of this would be happening.

Clothing of the body is now the human norm in the world, excepting for the uncivilized.
Again putting your own will ahead of the will of God, you have decided they are uncivilized? By who's standards?
 
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Clare73

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The fact they are ashamed shows they are putting their will to work. Had they not done so in the first place none of this would be happening.


Again putting your own will ahead of the will of God, you have decided they are uncivilized? By who's standards?
It's the world, so it's by the majority of the people of the world's standards.

I suspect Adam and Eve were clothed in light. When they sinned, they lost the light and saw their nakedness.
 
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Clare73

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Right. I do not see the language of "imputed righteousness," but only the insinuation that Christ's righteous *record* is being imputed to the believer. That believer actually has Christ in him, which for me means that the believer actually participates in the virtues of Christ (2 Pet 1.4). For you, this is imputation, suggesting that something is being credited where the believer actually participates.
There are two kinds of righteousness in the NT: justification and sanctification.
What you describe above is sanctification, however, Ro 5:18-19 is about justification.

Being uninformed regarding the NT righteousness of justification as forensic only, and distinct from the righteousness of sanctification which is actual, they are therefore erroneously lumped together.
The righteous of justification is simply a declaration by the Court of right standing with justice, no penalty owing.
It is a forensic righteousness only, not an actual righteousness.

The righteousness of sanctification through obedience in the Holy Spirit is the actual righteousness of the person.
It is the holiness of the person, not just a legal standing.

Ro 5:18-19 is not about actual righteousness (holiness of the person), just as it is not about actual sin (committed by the person).
It is about a legal righteousness (in good standing with justice, debt paid), just as it is about a legal guilt (not in good standing with justice, debt/punishment owing).

Until you are schooled in the difference** between legal (forensic) righteous (justification, dikaiosis) and legal guilt, as distinct from actual righteous and actual guilt, you will not correctly understand Ro 5:18-19, which is about legal righteousness and legal guilt.
You have the marks of one who has been personally persuaded by a respected Catholic regarding this doctrine.

**To wit: I did not actually shoot the person (I am not actually guilty of murder), but I did participate in the planning of the murder (I am legally guilty of murder) and will do the time for murder.
 
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timothyu

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It's the world, so it's by the majority of the people of the world's standards.
Yet God says the world has it backwards. (and they were merely unaware just like our pets today)

Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

James 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
 
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timothyu

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We are no less sinful than were Adam and Eve
Of course we aren't. Mankind just loves to put their will first and ignore the will of God, as Eve then Adam did. Now we have 8 billion people putting their will ahead of everyone else, or at least seeking out like minded in order to gang up on each other. Total failures as children of God.
 
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Clare73

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Of course we aren't. Mankind just loves to put their will first and ignore the will of God, as Eve then Adam did. Now we have 8 billion people putting their will ahead of everyone else, or at least seeking out like minded in order to gang up on each other. Total failures as children of God.
Relevance to shame at nakedness?
 
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RandyPNW

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There are two kinds of righteousness in the NT: justification and sanctification.
What you describe above is sanctification, however, Ro 5:18-19 is about justification.

You, being uninformed regarding the NT righteousness of justification as distinct from the righteousness of sanctification, are therefore erroneously lumping them together.
Do you really wish to be obnoxious by calling me "uninformed?" I know perfectly well the difference between Justification and Sanctification. I've read the entire history of the Sanctification, or Holiness, movement--have you? Vinson Synan was a prominent writer on this history, and I've read at least two of his books on this history.

Justification has to do with Christ being the atonement for our Sin. Sanctification has to do with our being set apart from Sin in this corrupt world. I'm not mixing these two up.

The Bible says that Christ is both our Justification and our Sanctification. This ties the two together in this regard--they both are accomplished by the work of Christ. It has zero relevance in any of your arguments.

1 Cor 1.30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Our participation is by definition excluded in Justification since Christ alone was the atonement for our Sin. On the other hand, Sanctification is both the work of Christ and something we participate in after the fact. Christ 1st provides it for us, and then we are able to actively participate in it.

Our active involvement in Christ's holiness comes from Christ providing us with his holy Life through his work of justification. And this holy life, along with justification, are mentioned in Rom 5.18-19, contrary to what you claim.
Ro 5:18-19 is not about actual righteousness (holiness of the person), just as it is not about actual sin (committed by the person).
It is about a legal righteousness (in good standing with justice, debt paid), just as it is about a legal guilt (not in good standing with justice, debt/punishment owing).
Please note below that Paul says that the righteous act of Christ, ie atonement, resulted in two things: Justification and Life. The "Life" part involves something Christ originated on our behalf so that we may actively participate in it. He justified us so that we may participate in his holy Life.

You are completely wrong if you think Christ's Life is associated with Justification in Rom 5.18-19 and as such, is something that is purely theoretical and legal, without any sense that we are to actively participate in it. Christ's Life is to be shared! And if Christ's Life comes via his Justification, then clearly, Rom 5.18-19 is speaking both of our Justification and Participation in Christ's holy Life.

Rom 5.17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Clearly, Christ's Life was provided for us by his atonement for our sins so that we may share in that Life! If we "reign in Life," then we actively participate in it! But just as in Justification, Christ is the originator of this thing--Sanctification, or Holiness, is not exclusively within the domain of what we do, but what we participate in after Christ himself has done it.

So you are quite wrong to say that Rom 5.17-18 is not about "actual righteousness." That is precisely what it becomes for us through Justification. Christ's atonement provided us with his holy Life, which becomes our Sanctification. And it is truly something that we actively participate in.

Rom 5.18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Until you are schooled in the difference** between legal (forensic) righteous (justification, dikaiosis) and legal guilt, as distinct from actual righteous and actual guilt, you will not correctly understand Ro 5:18-19, which is about legal righteousness and legal guilt.
You have the marks of one who has been personally persuaded by a respected Catholic regarding this doctrine.
Do you really wish to divest yourself of the virtues of good relationship and good conversation to assume the defense of a hostile party, who resorts to insult and provocation? You think you are "schooling me?" You suggest, without knowledge, that I've been "persuaded by a respected Catholic?" This is clearly false in both cases.

If this is how you wish to argue, you've already lost your case, because like in boxing, low blows cause you to be disqualified. It is you, in fact, who don't know what you're talking about. You don't know me, and you shouldn't act as if you have my number. You don't.
 
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Clare73

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I know perfectly well the difference between Justification and Sanctification. I've read the entire history of the Sanctification, or Holiness, movement--have you? Vinson Synan was a prominent writer on this history, and I've read at least two of his books on this history.
I take my understanding of justification and sanctification from NT apostolic teaching, authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16).
Justification has to do with Christ being the atonementfor our Sin.
Sanctification has to do with our being set apart from Sin in this corrupt world. I'm not mixing these two up.
The Bible says that Christ is both our Justification and our Sanctification.
Actually, they are both about the same thing--righteousness.

Justification is forensic, a (legal) righteousness imputed,
sanctification is actual, a (holiness) righteousness acquired.
Justification is a legal declaration of being in right standing with justice, "not guilty," no punishment due, is imputed,
Sanctification is holiness, by obedience to the word of God and the example of Christ, cannot be transferred or imputed, is only acquired.
This ties the two together in this regard--they both are accomplished by the work of Christ. It has zero relevance in any of your arguments.
Not just those two, but everything spiritual, from the new birth to the resurrection, is accomplished by the work of Christ through the Holy Spirit.
Everything is tied together, but that does not make them the same.
Sanctification is not salvation, redemption is not holiness, salvation is not righteousness, justification is not sanctification,
1 Cor 1.30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.
Our participation is by definition excluded in Justification since Christ alone was the atonement for our Sin. On the other hand, Sanctification is both the work of Christ and something we participate in after the fact. Christ 1st provides it for us, and then we are able to actively participate in it.
Our active involvement in Christ's holiness comes from Christ providing us with his holy Life through his work of justification.
This is where misunderstanding of the NT lies.
I. Christ does not provide us with his holy (righteous) life in justification.

NT justification (dikaiosis) means a sentence of acquittal, a legal declaration of right standing with God's justice--time served, debt paid, no punishment due. . . period.
It has nothing to do with one's personal character. It does not improve one. That is the work of sanctification, not justification.

There are two different kinds of righteousness in NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16):
1) justification (dikaiosis) - a declaration, sentence by the divine Judge of guilt removed--debt paid, no punishment due, in good standing with the divine Court,
2) sanctification (hagiosune = holy character) - an individual possession built up little by little, as the result of obedience to the word of God and following the example of Christ (Mt 11:29, Jn 13:15, Eph 4:20, Php 2:5) in the power of the Holy Spirit (Ro 8:13, Eph 3:16).
And this holy life, along with justification, are mentioned in Rom 5.18-19, contrary to what you claim.
Please note below that Paul says that the righteous act of Christ, ie atonement, resulted in two things: Justification and Life.
Actually, atonement resulted in receiving the "justification of life" (Ro 5:18); i.e., justification that brings life; i.e., eternal life, as a free gift.
II. Christ provides us with the gift of divine eternal life in justification.

Confusion of the two, eternal life as being Christ's righteous holy life on earth, results in a misunderstanding of imputation in Ro 5:18-19.
You are completely wrong if you think Christ's Life is associated with Justification in Rom 5.18-19 and as such, is something that is purely theoretical and legal,
Case in point!
It is the very misunderstanding of Ro 5:18-19 with which I am dealing here that allows such an egregious assertion.

Justification - being declared not guilty, no longer God's enemy (Ro 5:10) and no longer subject to the justice of hell-fire, is anything but purely theoretical.
Legal - legally declared not guilty in God's system of justice, where eternal life and damnation are legally (based on justice) determined, is anything but theoretical.
So you are quite wrong to say that Rom 5.17-18 is not about "actual righteousness."
Misunderstanding at work again.

It is not me, it is the Greek language of NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16), wherein the definition of
justification (dikaiosis) = a declaration of "not guilty," a sentence of acquittal, a legal finding of right standing with the Court, of penalty paid; i.e., a forensic righteousness, not an actual righteousness.

You suggest, without knowledge, that I've been "persuaded by a respected Catholic?" This is clearly false
I understand your words, which you also claim of Paul's exacting parallels in Ro 5:18-19, and also, as you with Paul's exacting parallels,
I do not require your meaning to be consistent with your words, and see you as meaning that you were taught this doctrine by a Catholic.
 
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RandyPNW

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I take my understanding of justification and sanctification from NT apostolic teaching, authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16).
Nobody here is doing otherwise. Your opinion of apostolic teaching is *your opinion.*

Justification is forensic, a (legal) righteousness imputed,
sanctification is actual, a (holiness) righteousness acquired.
Justification is a legal declaration of being in right standing with justice, "not guilty," no punishment due, is imputed,
Sanctification is holiness, by obedience to the word of God and the example of Christ, cannot be transferred or imputed, is only acquired.
Why are you trying to teach me things we both already know? My original point was that the *guilt* of Adam was not imputed to his offspring. In my view, it is the flawless *record* of Christ that is imputed to us, ie credited to us, whereas the righteousness of Christ itself is being *transferred* to us so that we may *participate* in it.

You said that Rom 5.18-19 is not about "actual righteousness." But referring to the Life of Christ, which he gives us through his Justification, is "actual righteousness."
Not just those two, but everything spiritual, from the new birth to the resurrection, is accomplished by the work of Christ through the Holy Spirit.
Everything is tied together, but that does not make them the same.
Sanctification is not salvation, redemption is not holiness, salvation is not righteousness, justification is not sanctification,
Obviously, we are dealing with different words with different meanings. Obviously, Christ is the source of both our justification and sanctification.
This is where misunderstanding of the NT lies.
I. Christ does not provide us with his holy (righteous) life in justification.
I showed you that Christ actually *does* provide us with his holy righteous life in Justification. By becoming our atoning sacrifice, he made his righteousness legally accessible to us for purpose of our Sanctification. This righteousness comes with his Life, which we receive by legal endowment through his Justification.

Again, the verses you claim do not provide for actual righteousness actually do mention both Justification and Life. And so Justification does indeed provide us with Christ's holy Life, which is our "actual righteousness."

Rom 5.18 ...also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people
NT justification (dikaiosis) means a sentence of acquittal, a legal declaration of right standing with God's justice--time served, debt paid, no punishment due. . . period.
It has nothing to do with one's personal character. It does not improve one. That is the work of sanctification, not justification.
Who is talking about "improving character?" Again, I'm not looking for you to teach me about what NT Justification is! I was raised in it from birth! I was an every week Lutheran from the time I was born, and confirmed in my early teens. I *know* what Justification is! If you're looking to teach someone, you better look elsewhere. I'm no longer a Lutheran, but I'm well-grounded on Protestant theological truths. I just have my own personal views on the various issues.
Actually, atonement resulted in receiving the "justification of life" (Ro 5:18); i.e., justification that brings life; i.e., eternal life, as a free gift.
That's what I've been saying, Clare, that Justification enables us to participate, actively, in Christ's Life for the purposes of Sanctification. The Life we've been freed to live in is Eternal, but we can begin to live in it now.

The fact we've been Spiritually Reborn means that we've adopted Christ's Life *in place of our own carnal life* so that we can now represent Christ's "character" as well as his good deeds. This latter part is purely my own perspective on it, based on what I see in Scriptures.
II. Christ provides us with the gift of divine eternal life in justification.
This is what I've been saying! ;) But Christ provides us with that Eternal Life *now* so that we may be sanctified now! We are actively engaged in the righteousness of this Life. Justification, therefore, is not purely legal, but also active, as I've been saying. You reign in life now, and not just in the future Kingdom.
Confusion of the two, eternal life as being Christ's righteous holy life on earth, results in a misunderstanding of imputation in Ro 5:18-19.
So you think "eternal life" is not synonymous with Christ's "holy life?" I think the confusion is yours, because they are in fact synonymous.

John 17.3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

I'm of course referring to Christ's *spiritual life* contained in the record of his human history.
It is not me, it is the Greek language of NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16), wherein the definition of
justification (dikaiosis) = a declaration of "not guilty," a sentence of acquittal, a legal finding of right standing with the Court, of penalty paid; i.e., a forensic righteousness, not an actual righteousness.

I understand your words, which you also claim of Paul's exacting parallels in Ro 5:18-19, and also, as you with Paul's exacting parallels,
I do not require your meaning to be consistent with your words, and see you as meaning that you were taught this doctrine by a Catholic.
I was *not* taught my beliefs by a Catholic. I got my teaching from my upbringing and from a lifetime of Bible Study, as well as by consulting commentaries, links, etc.

I have no idea why you cannot handle someone with a different opinion than your own? You may certainly disagree with me, but you need to get down off of your high horse. What I've been sharing isn't very difficult to understand, and it is *not* heretical.
 
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Clare73

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I have no idea why you cannot handle someone with a different opinion than your own? You may certainly disagree with me, but you need to get down off of your high horse. What I've been sharing isn't very difficult to understand, and it is *not* heretical.
It's not just a difference of opinion.

If "Justification does indeed provide us with Christ's holy Life, which is our "actual righteousness,"
if "the spiritual virtue of Christ, is being actually *transferred,*" in justification, and
if "Christ actually *does* provide us with his holy righteous life in Justification"
then there is no need for sanctification,
for Christ's life is totally efficacious and complete, and can in no way be improved upon in us.
That notion of justification, in contradiction to the Biblical definition of justification (dikaiosis), is serious error for the body of Christ.

There is a reason that your qualified Pastor brother does not agree with you.
Nobody here is doing otherwise. Your opinion of apostolic teaching is *your opinion.*
My "opinion" of apostolic teaching is "opinion" only when you Biblically demonstrate its error, in consistency with its context and the rest of the NT.
Why are you trying to teach me things we both already know?
Because you don't "know" Ro 5:18-19.
My original point was that the *guilt* of Adam was not imputed to his offspring. In my view, it is the flawless *record* of Christ that is imputed to us, ie credited to us, whereas the righteousness of Christ itself is being *transferred* to us so that we may *participate* in it.
You are in disagreement with the apostolic Greek text where justification (dikaiosis) does not mean actual righteousness of Christ, as demonstrated in post #79.
This misunderstanding of the term "justification" is the source of your breaking Paul's exacting parallel, thereby making your view in disagreement with the text of Ro 5:18-19.
You said that Rom 5.18-19 is not about "actual righteousness." But referring to the Life of Christ, which he gives us through his Justification, is "actual righteousness."
"Of Christ" is not in the text of Ro 5:18, by which addition you declare all disagreement with you to be simply "opinion."
Obviously, we are dealing with different words with different meanings. Obviously, Christ is the source of both our justification and sanctification.
I showed you that Christ actually *does* provide us with his holy righteous life in Justification. By becoming our atoning sacrifice, he made his righteousness legally accessible to us for purpose of our Sanctification. This righteousness comes with his Life, which we receive by legal endowment through his Justification;
Again, the verses you claim do not provide for actual righteousness actually do mention both Justification and Life. And so Justification does indeed provide us with Christ's holy Life, which is our "actual righteousness."
As above, you are in disagreement with the apostolic Greek text where justification (dikaiosis) does not mean actual righteousness.
This misunderstanding of the term, justification, not being in accord with the definition of "justification," is the source of your breaking Paul's exacting parallel, thereby making your view in disagreement with the text of Ro 5:18-19.
Rom 5.18 ...also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people
Per its Biblical definition, "justification" (dikaiosis) in the Biblical Greek is not a provision of Christ's holy life as our actual righteousess.

As demonstrated in post #79, it is a declaration, a sentence, a verdict, a legal finding of acquittal of guilt, which is not a transferring of actual righteousness, which definition does not allow the "life" in Ro 5:18 to be Christ's holy righteous life of sanctification.
It allows only a positional right standing with justice; i.e., not guilty, fine paid.

Life in Ro 5:18 is eternal life of the new birth, not Christ's righteous life of sanctification.
The newly born-again Christian has eternal life, but he does not have sanctifiction, holiness, actual righteousness.
That comes through obedience in the Holy Spirit, which leads to righteousness leading to holiness (Ro 6:16, 19, 22).
Sanctification, holiness is not imputed, it is imparted (Ro 6:16, 19, 22). Positional right(eous) standing with God ("not guilty") is imputed.

Who is talking about "improving character?" Again, I'm not looking for you to teach me about what NT Justification is! I was raised in it from birth! I was an every week Lutheran from the time I was born, and confirmed in my early teens. I *know* what Justification is! If you're looking to teach someone, you better look elsewhere. I'm no longer a Lutheran, but I'm well-grounded on Protestant theological truths. I just have my own personal views on the various issues.
That's what I've been saying, Clare, that Justification enables us to participate, actively, in Christ's Life for the purposes of Sanctification. The Life we've been freed to live in is Eternal, but we can begin to live in it now.
The fact we've been Spiritually Reborn means that we've adopted Christ's Life *in place of our own carnal life* so that we can now represent Christ's "character" as well as his good deeds. This latter part is purely my own perspective on it, based on what I see in Scriptures.
This is what I've been saying! ;) But Christ provides us with that Eternal Life *now* so that we may be sanctified now! We are actively engaged in the righteousness of this Life. Justification, therefore, is not purely legal, but also active, as I've been saying. You reign in life now, and not just in the future Kingdom.
So you think "eternal life" is not synonymous with Christ's "holy life?" I think the confusion is yours, because they are in fact synonymous.
John 17.3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
I'm of course referring to Christ's *spiritual life* contained in the record of his human history.
I was *not* taught my beliefs by a Catholic. I got my teaching from my upbringing and from a lifetime of Bible Study, as well as by consulting commentaries, links, etc.
I understand your words, as you also claim of Paul's exacting parallels in Ro 5:18-19, and also, as you with Paul's exacting parallels,
I do not require your meaning to be consistent with your words, and see you as meaning that you were taught this doctrine by a Catholic.
 
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RandyPNW

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It's not just a difference of opinion.

If "Justification does indeed provide us with Christ's holy Life, which is our "actual righteousness,"
if "the spiritual virtue of Christ, is being actually *transferred,*" in justification, and
if "Christ actually *does* provide us with his holy righteous life in Justification"
then there is no need for sanctification,
for Christ's life is totally efficacious and complete, and can in no way be improved upon in us.
That notion of justification, in contradiction to the Biblical definition of justification (dikaiosis), is serious error for the body of Christ.

There is a reason that your qualified Pastor brother does not agree with you.
Actually, my brother holds to the more traditional Protestant view. However, he initially pointed out to me that this is debatable, that the view I hold is *not* heretical, but rather, held as a recognized theological perspective.

I just talked with him about it last Sunday, and he actually seems more amenable to my view now, though in a non-committal way. He seemed to agree with some of the major ideas underlying my view, that righteousness is certainly more than merely imputed, but more, imparted, as well.

The way you phrase the argument above illustrates that you don't even understand my argument. No wonder you disagree with it!

1) Justification does provide us with an "actual righteousness." If it doesn't then we can't be sanctified.
2) Christ imputed *his sinless record* to us in giving us the right to participate in his righteousness. The is the equivalent of having his righteousness transferred to us *for purposes of participation!*

You appear to think that if God transfers Christ's righteousness to us that it remains something we cannot participate in because of its perfection? That makes no sense at all, since by its very nature, his righteousness transferred to us enables us to participate in it. That is the very essence of Justification by Grace, to enable us to participate in something that is flawless and qualified for Eternal Life.
My "opinion" of apostolic teaching is "opinion" only when you Biblically demonstrate its error, in consistency with its context and the rest of the NT.

Because you don't "know" Ro 5:18-19.
Again, that is your opinion. In my opinion you mis-read Rom 5.18-19, because you've completely ignored the element of "Life" in the passage, which is the Righteousness that we reign in and that we participate in. Unless we participate in it, we have not actually received Christ, and we do not have Eternal Life.
You are in disagreement with the apostolic Greek text where justification (dikaiosis) does not mean actual righteousness of Christ, as demonstrated in post #79.
This misunderstanding of the term "justification" is the source of your breaking Paul's exacting parallel, thereby making your view in disagreement with the text of Ro 5:18-19.
I've explained to you that this is *not* an exact parallel because the passage itself says it is not! Adam and Christ run parallel only up to a certain point where there are significant differences, and this is a central point of the passage, that these parallels were meant to differentiate at a critical point.

It is where Christ's Justification enables people to perform differently from how their record presents them that is relevant to Paul's point. Otherwise, Adam's Sin caused people to perform exactly as Adam's record presents them.

Imputing Christ's perfection to sinful people is precisely the point Paul wished to make, whereas there was nothing to impute anything different to Adam's offspring after Adam had sinned. You focus only on the difference in reward, whether death or Eternal Life. That is true, but that is not the only import of the passage.
"Of Christ" is not in the text of Ro 5:18, by which addition you declare all disagreement with you to be simply "opinion."
You don't think Paul is talking about "the Life of Christ?' The Life we've received is the Eternal Life resident in Christ. This is plainly what the Scriptures teach.
Per its Biblical definition, "justification" (dikaiosis) in the Biblical Greek is not a provision of Christ's holy life as our actual righteousess.
You are trying to define Justification so as to exclude any view of it other than your own. But I've informed you that *many Christians* don't hold to your "narrow" Protestant view of Justification.

Not even Protestants would deny that there is Moral Law or actual Righteousness! They just wish to exclude human works in Christ's Justification--something I would agree with, though I don't require the language they use.
As demonstrated in post #79, it is a declaration, a sentence, a verdict, a legal finding of acquittal of guilt, which is not a transferring of actual righteousness, which definition does not allow the "life" in Ro 5:18 to be Christ's holy righteous life of sanctification.
It allows only a positional right standing with justice; i.e., not guilty, fine paid.
That is certainly what Justification is, but I'm referring to what it *leads to,* which is our Sanctification. That involves our "Life," which is something we participate in. You don't allow for this in Rom 5.18-19, but I do. The word "Life" is there. You seem to think that because we, as Christians, receive Life from Christ that it doesn't belong to Christ. How strange!

Rom 5.17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.


The mechanics of how Christ atoned for our sins and forgave us in order to qualify us to receive his life, even though we do not have his perfection, is Justification. But it is absolutely essential that we understand that the purpose of this Justification was to actually give us this Life and Righteousness. We are qualified by Justification to receive it in our imperfect condition, and we are thereby able to receive it as Life and Virtue from him.

You can see this in the analogy of a branch off of a vine. The Life in the Vine shares the same Life with the Branch.

In other words, Justification involves both our undeserved receipt of the Gift as well as our ability to use it. You seem to define Justification in such a way as to exclude our using the Gift. But I know you, like most Christians, would admit that our Justification also leads to our putting Christ's Righteousness into action!

You refer to this as "Sanctification," and yet wish to distinguish this from Justification, even though one leads to the other. They cannot, therefore, be separated! Justification cannot take place unless it leads to our Sanctification.

And Sanctification is clearly a part of Justification, since Christ himself is both the Justifier and the Sanctifier. His righteousness and separation from Sin is what is offered to God, and then to us, in our place, And this is so that we may receive it and then do it.
Life in Ro 5:18 is eternal life of the new birth, not Christ's righteous life of sanctification.
Christ's Life is both his own Eternal Life and the Life he gives us through Justification. Christ's Life is from the start "eternal," and is is by nature "sanctified from Sin." So he made his Spiritual Life available to us by Grace. That is Justification and that involves both his own Sanctified Life and the Sanctified Life we receive from him. Beyond this, we sanctify ourselves by choosing to live by that Life and by avoiding carnal living.

In receiving Christ's Spiritual Life we do not own the Divine Nature entirely, but merely participate in it. In this way our Sanctification is both received and worked out in our own lives. See 2 Pet 1.4.
The newly born-again Christian has eternal life, but he does not have sanctifiction, holiness, actual righteousness.
All Christians, new-born or not, have a degree of Sanctification simply by virtue of their having received Christ, who *is* our Sanctification!
That comes through obedience in the Holy Spirit, which leads to righteousness leading to holiness (Ro 6:16, 19, 22).
Sanctification, holiness is not imputed, it is imparted (Ro 6:16, 19, 22). Positional right(eous) standing with God ("not guilty") is imputed.
Sanctification and holiness are provided to us by God imputing to us Christ's Righteousness, as if we are worthy of it. It is essentially His forgiveness and atonement for our sins. Forgiving us our sins, He determined to give unworthy people His Righteousness to make us righteous, and thus, worthy of it by choice to both receive it and practice it.

The common Protestant sense seems to require nothing of us through Justification, since we are unworthy to obtain it. But my own Protestant sense considers that Justification is designed to enable us to practice Christ's Righteousness, and so become worthy of it through Christ's imputation of his perfect record to us.

Imputing Christ's perfect record to us is really just God giving His holy Life to people who do not deserve it. Since Christ's Spiritual Life is pure and sinless, it appears that God has imputed to us the worth to possess it.
 
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