The Moral Law

RandyPNW

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1 Timothy 1.8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

This shows us that the Law, in the NT era, is still useful even though the Covenant of the Law is passe. It still functions as the word of God in the sense that God has not changed, His morality has not changed. Some call this the "Moral Law." It is consistent in all of God's laws because no matter what covenant is in effect, God's holy character and His demands upon Man morally remains the same.
 

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When law is mentioned most people think of the 10 Commandments ( both scripture and movie) . God since the Garden told man to put His will first, not ours. The 10 C's were merely an example of what often happens when man puts our will first. Jesus summed up God's laws in His own 2 commandments, which again simply said put the will of God ahead of the will of man, thus loving all as self, rather than loving self as man is prone to do. Repentance is merely rejecting the self serving ways of man, and if that is following the law, then so be it for mankind.
 
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1 Timothy 1.8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

This shows us that the Law, in the NT era, is still useful even though the Covenant of the Law is passe. It still functions as the word of God in the sense that God has not changed, His morality has not changed. Some call this the "Moral Law." It is consistent in all of God's laws because no matter what covenant is in effect, God's holy character and His demands upon Man morally remains the same.
Law is made for the unrighteous.

For the righteous, the law of God is summed up in one rule (Ro 13:9), love of God and neighbor as self (Mt 22:37-40).
 
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RandyPNW

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Someone on another forum mocked me for bringing this up at all. I answered (in part):

I've for years and years run into Christians who claim that we are under the 10 Commandments, as if it is separate from the Law of Moses but just as binding as the Law of Moses. I've run into many other Christians over the years who believe that we are even under the Law to some degree, including the Sabbath Law.

Adhering to a law that they think lasts "until the heavens and the earth pass away," they therefore claim we have to keep the Sabbath because that is part of the 10 Commandments.
 
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RandyPNW

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Jesus is the vehicle through which our adherence to law comes. The Law of Moses was purely a temporary reprieve until Jesus came. But the Law in itself never could do anything more than show our imperfect adherence to God's requirements for membership in Paradise.

So when we live through Jesus, we are putting our stake in his perfect record, and accepting that the sins we are forsaking but have really committed are forgiven and forgotten, so that we can enter God's eternal Kingdom. When we forsake our sins we show that we adhere to law only through the spirit of Jesus, and not independent of him.

I say this because some Christians on these forums have told me that because our righteousness comes by Christ alone there is nothing we can do to achieve merit with God, nothing that we need do to obtain Salvation. But there is a difference between obtaining Salvation and meriting Salvation.

We obtain Salvation when we receive and display Christ in our lives. Christ merited our Salvation exclusively when he atoned for our sins on the cross.

We do not do anything apart from Christ when we adhere to law. When we receive Christ we actually become lawful by choosing to do good in him, as well as to receive atonement for our sins. In responding to God's word we obtain the virtue necessary to obey that word.
 
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Soyeong

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1 Timothy 1.8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

This shows us that the Law, in the NT era, is still useful even though the Covenant of the Law is passe. It still functions as the word of God in the sense that God has not changed, His morality has not changed. Some call this the "Moral Law." It is consistent in all of God's laws because no matter what covenant is in effect, God's holy character and His demands upon Man morally remains the same.
In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law. All of God's laws reveal His character and morality.
 
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timothyu

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So when we live through Jesus, we are putting our stake in his perfect record, and accepting that the sins we are forsaking but have really committed are forgiven and forgotten, so that we can enter God's eternal Kingdom.
Jesus brought the good news of and opened the door to the Kingdom, allowing for the previously unavailable resurrection of mankind, in order to determine who favoured God's will over man's and who was worthy of moving forward..
 
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RandyPNW

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In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law. All of God's laws reveal His character and morality.
You see, this is why I write this kind of stuff, because some "Christians" believe the New Covenant involves following the Mosaic Law, when it doesn't! That is pure heresy. The New Covenant was designed to liberate Israel from the requirements of a Covenant that delegitimized their application for Eternal Life.

I know I'm putting that a little strangely. However, the Law was a Covenant that was meant to keep Israel in relationship with God, knowing that they were disqualified from Eternal Life due to the Sin Nature they inherited from Adam and Eve.

The design of the Law in making Sin offerings and purification rituals for all Israel demonstrated that God marked all men as sinful and falling short of His Kingdom. They all had to observe this Law to show that they were sinners, disqualified like Adam and Even from the Tree of Life. The fact that in Israel's history all men failed to live up to the perfect standards of the Law showed that all men fall short of God's glory.

Under the Mosaic Law there were temporary coverings for Sin, indicating that God was a God of Grace,. Animal Sacrifices, purification rituals, and all of the conditions for meeting with God around the Tabernacle, indicated that God held out Grace to Israel. But what God always required in the end was the sacrifice of His Son in order to apply this Grace for Eternity.

Sin has to be completely dealt with in order to inherit God's Kingdom, and only God's perfect Son qualified for resurrection and immortality. We can achieve the value of Christ's resurrection simply by applying to have Christ's spiritual life in us, in place of doing things our own way. His Grace as Divine Son enables him to forgive all our Sins conditioned on our acceptance of him alone as the basis for living.

So God knew all along that the Law would be abandoned, because it involved a human effort apart from Christ that was condemned to failure over the long run. Since Israel demonstrated not just failure *under the Law* but failure *of the Law itself as a system,* God had in mind a brand new covenant to replace it that would actually provide the Eternal Life that we all needed.

This is not the Mosaic Law, since the temple, priestly, and sacrificial law were only temporary Band-Aids that did not completely remove human sin. Only Christ could provide a resurrection to immortality by virtue of his own sinlessness. And he alone could give us this spirituality because of his qualifications as Deity.
 
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Soyeong

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You see, this is why I write this kind of stuff, because some "Christians" believe the New Covenant involves following the Mosaic Law, when it doesn't! That is pure heresy.
In Matthew 4:15-23, Christ began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message. Furthermore, Christ set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). So Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example and the he did not establish the New Covenant for the purpose of undermining his ministry, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 31:33, Ezekiel 36:26-27).

The New Covenant was designed to liberate Israel from the requirements of a Covenant that delegitimized their application for Eternal Life.
That is not stated anywhere in Bible, but rather the NT repeatedly affirms the OT that obedience to God is the way to enter eternal life. For example, in Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus affirmed that obedience to the greatest two commandments is the way to inherit eternal life. In Romans 2:6-7, those who persist in doing good will be given eternal life. In Hebrews 5:9, Jesus has become a source of eternal salvation for those who obey him. In Revelation 22:14, those who obeyed God's commandments are given the right to eat from the Tree of Life. In Romans 6:19-23, no longer presenting ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin is contested with now presenting ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so getting to live in obedience to the Mosaic Law is the content of God's gift of eternal life.

However, the Law was a Covenant that was meant to keep Israel in relationship with God, knowing that they were disqualified from Eternal Life due to the Sin Nature they inherited from Adam and Eve.
Again, nowhere is that stated in the Bible.

The design of the Law in making Sin offerings and purification rituals for all Israel demonstrated that God marked all men as sinful and falling short of His Kingdom. They all had to observe this Law to show that they were sinners, disqualified like Adam and Even from the Tree of Life. The fact that in Israel's history all men failed to live up to the perfect standards of the Law showed that all men fall short of God's glory.
When we sin, then that means that we need to repent and return to obedience, not that we are disqualified for eternal life. Before Adam and Eve had eaten from either tree, they were at a crossroads between mortality and eternal life, where eating from the Tree of Knowledge caused them to become mortal, while eating from the Tree of Life would have caused them to have eternal life. In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, the Israelites were at an identical crossroads and given an identical choice, where it says that the Mosaic Law is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life!

The Mosaic Law came with instructions for what for what to do when the people sinned, so it did not require perfect obedience. The fact that we can repent after we have sinned again demonstrates that we do not need to have perfect obedience. The consistent call of the prophets was for repentance, not for perfect obedience. The fact that there are people who have salvation and eternal life even through we have not had perfect obedience to the Mosaic Law again demonstrate that we don't need to have perfect obedience. In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it is described as a possibility and as a choice, not as the need for perfect obedience, and Romans 10:5-8 references the passage as the word of faith that we proclaim. Thinking that we need to have perfect obedience has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of the Mosaic Law.

Under the Mosaic Law there were temporary coverings for Sin, indicating that God was a God of Grace,. Animal Sacrifices, purification rituals, and all of the conditions for meeting with God around the Tabernacle, indicated that God held out Grace to Israel. But what God always required in the end was the sacrifice of His Son in order to apply this Grace for Eternity.
Rather, it was teaching to obey the Mosaic Law that indicates that God is a God of grace. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, and he chose the way of faithfulness by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he might know Him and Israel too, and in John 17:3, knowing God and Jesus is eternal life, which is again salvation by grace through faith. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, so God was gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way and he was righteous because he obeyed through faith. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to obey the Mosaic Law is the content of His gift of salvation/eternal life.

Sin has to be completely dealt with in order to inherit God's Kingdom, and only God's perfect Son qualified for resurrection and immortality. We can achieve the value of Christ's resurrection simply by applying to have Christ's spiritual life in us, in place of doing things our own way. His Grace as Divine Son enables him to forgive all our Sins conditioned on our acceptance of him alone as the basis for living.
In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20).

So God knew all along that the Law would be abandoned, because it involved a human effort apart from Christ that was condemned to failure over the long run. Since Israel demonstrated not just failure *under the Law* but failure *of the Law itself as a system,* God had in mind a brand new covenant to replace it that would actually provide the Eternal Life that we all needed.
Nowhere does the Bible say that God knew all along that the Mosaic Law would be abandoned, but rather it says that it is eternal (Psalms 119:160). The Mosaic Law is God's word Christ is God's word made flesh, so it is contradictory to consider us embodying God's word to be apart from the one who is the embodiment of God's word. In Hebrews 8:6-9, it does not state that the failure that God found with the Mosaic Covenant was with His law, but rather it says that he found fault with the people for not continuing in their covenant, so the solution to the problem is not to do away with His law, but to do away with what was hindering us from obeying it (Jeremiah 31:33, Ezekiel 36:26-27, Romans 8:3-4). To find fault with what God has instructed would also be to find fault with God, but God is not at fault, and what He instructed does provide the way to eternal life that all needed.

This is not the Mosaic Law, since the temple, priestly, and sacrificial law were only temporary Band-Aids that did not completely remove human sin. Only Christ could provide a resurrection to immortality by virtue of his own sinlessness. And he alone could give us this spirituality because of his qualifications as Deity.
All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160). The sacrificial system was given for the purpose of testifying about Christ.
 
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RandyPNW

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In Matthew 4:15-23, Christ began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message. Furthermore, Christ set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). So Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example and the he did not establish the New Covenant for the purpose of undermining his ministry, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 31:33, Ezekiel 36:26-27).


That is not stated anywhere in Bible, but rather the NT repeatedly affirms the OT that obedience to God is the way to enter eternal life. For example, in Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus affirmed that obedience to the greatest two commandments is the way to inherit eternal life. In Romans 2:6-7, those who persist in doing good will be given eternal life. In Hebrews 5:9, Jesus has become a source of eternal salvation for those who obey him. In Revelation 22:14, those who obeyed God's commandments are given the right to eat from the Tree of Life. In Romans 6:19-23, no longer presenting ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin is contested with now presenting ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so getting to live in obedience to the Mosaic Law is the content of God's gift of eternal life.


Again, nowhere is that stated in the Bible.


When we sin, then that means that we need to repent and return to obedience, not that we are disqualified for eternal life. Before Adam and Eve had eaten from either tree, they were at a crossroads between mortality and eternal life, where eating from the Tree of Knowledge caused them to become mortal, while eating from the Tree of Life would have caused them to have eternal life. In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, the Israelites were at an identical crossroads and given an identical choice, where it says that the Mosaic Law is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life!

The Mosaic Law came with instructions for what for what to do when the people sinned, so it did not require perfect obedience. The fact that we can repent after we have sinned again demonstrates that we do not need to have perfect obedience. The consistent call of the prophets was for repentance, not for perfect obedience. The fact that there are people who have salvation and eternal life even through we have not had perfect obedience to the Mosaic Law again demonstrate that we don't need to have perfect obedience. In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it is described as a possibility and as a choice, not as the need for perfect obedience, and Romans 10:5-8 references the passage as the word of faith that we proclaim. Thinking that we need to have perfect obedience has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of the Mosaic Law.


Rather, it was teaching to obey the Mosaic Law that indicates that God is a God of grace. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, and he chose the way of faithfulness by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he might know Him and Israel too, and in John 17:3, knowing God and Jesus is eternal life, which is again salvation by grace through faith. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, so God was gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way and he was righteous because he obeyed through faith. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to obey the Mosaic Law is the content of His gift of salvation/eternal life.


In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20).


Nowhere does the Bible say that God knew all along that the Mosaic Law would be abandoned, but rather it says that it is eternal (Psalms 119:160). The Mosaic Law is God's word Christ is God's word made flesh, so it is contradictory to consider us embodying God's word to be apart from the one who is the embodiment of God's word. In Hebrews 8:6-9, it does not state that the failure that God found with the Mosaic Covenant was with His law, but rather it says that he found fault with the people for not continuing in their covenant, so the solution to the problem is not to do away with His law, but to do away with what was hindering us from obeying it (Jeremiah 31:33, Ezekiel 36:26-27, Romans 8:3-4). To find fault with what God has instructed would also be to find fault with God, but God is not at fault, and what He instructed does provide the way to eternal life that all needed.


All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160). The sacrificial system was given for the purpose of testifying about Christ.
Salvation by the Law is unadulterated heresy, and I'm glad all here have been given a chance to see what your teaching is. That way they know why I bring up a subject that may seem to "split hairs" at times, and why it was necessary to address the matter.

In bringing others back to true NT teaching they may be able to avoid the bondage you wish to put them under, which is an insult to the New Testament system Christ set up to show us that nothing is required of us except to place a complete trust in Christ alone. In putting our trust in Christ alone we are choosing to follow his example as a flawless human being, which the Law only alluded to through a system that magnified the attempts of sinful men to live by God's perfect moral standards.

But we are no longer required to live by such a "flawed performance," imperfectly performed by flawed human beings. Instead, we now follow Christ under a system that did *not* require of him the Law and its remedies for human sinfulness. Rather, we follow Christ as a means of Grace under a system that required *nothing* to purify him of sin, and so do not need the superstructure that could never perfect our human failures.

You've denied over and over again what I shared about the Law being expired in favor of a brand new NT system. Yet it is there in black and white. You obviously lack understanding of the book of Romans, where all the things I stated were clearly stated, although those who have been misled misinterpret Paul's teachings.

If you wish to understand more precisely and in clearer language where the NT Scriptures teach these things, just ask. But if your agenda remains to teach what the Paul considered to be heresy, I've said all I need to say to you.
 
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RandyPNW

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In a nutshell, let me put the expiration of the OT legal system in an example. The Law of Moses was like a marriage covenant made with Israel. And yet God anticipated that Israel would fail that covenant.

He provided restitution under that system, to maintain it in perpetuity because God's marriage covenant was designed to be eternal. And yet, God also knew that the means of correcting Israel's failures would overload the system itself and that it would collapse as failure became epidemic in the nation and beyond repair.

And so, God also anticipated the need to repair and replace the entire system with a system that would never fail. We call that system "Christian Grace" today.

The New Covenant sustains the marriage God originally started with Israel, but is not contingent upon repairing the Law as a Covenant system. As the New Covenant came into play, all of the repairs loaded into the OT system would no longer need to be applied.

Temple ritual, and priestly sacrifices, would no longer be required when the Marriage Covenant had been completely secured for all eternity. The system of Christ's Grace would replace the Law as that eternal system.

This process is shown as anticipated by God in the Prophets. God showed the Prophets that Israel would suffer a Divorce under the system of Law. The entire nation would fall into apostasy, with a few exceptions, and the entire temple system would be taken away, as well as their place in the land of their marriage to God.

But this Marriage was repaired by a restoration of the Law (Zerubbabel), and not by the mechanics of the Law itself, since appeasement to God was no longer possible under a system the superstructure of which had completely collapsed. No sacrifice could be made under a temple system when the temple had been completely destroyed.

And so, God by grace had the temple rebuilt, showing that a catastrophic failure of the Law could be repaired and restored. However, this merely anticipated the coming system of Grace through Christ, when he would repair God's marriage with Israel by inserting himself as the "restored temple."
 
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Salvation by the Law is unadulterated heresy, and I'm glad all here have been given a chance to see what your teaching is. That way they know why I bring up a subject that may seem to "split hairs" at times, and why it was necessary to address the matter.
Salvation by law is the position that we are required to have first obeyed God's law in order to become saved as the result as through it were earned as a wage. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation by obeying it, living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not living in obedience to it.

In bringing others back to true NT teaching they may be able to avoid the bondage you wish to put them under, which is an insult to the New Testament system Christ set up to show us that nothing is required of us except to place a complete trust in Christ alone. In putting our trust in Christ alone we are choosing to follow his example as a flawless human being, which the Law only alluded to through a system that magnified the attempts of sinful men to live by God's perfect moral standards.
God does not put His people under bondage, but rather He frees us from bondage and His law is of freedom (Psalms 119:45). If God freed the Israelites from bondage in Egypt in order to put them under bondage to His law, then it would be for bondage that God sets us free, however, Galatians 5:1 says that it is for freedom that God sets us free. In Psalms 119:142, the Mosaic Law is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is sin in transgression of the Mosaic Law that puts us in bondage while it is the truth that sets us free, so I do not want to put anyone under bondage, but rather I want people to be free from it. Christ is God's word made flesh, so the way to place a complete trust in Christ is by obeying God's word while it is contradicts to think that we should trust in God for salvation, but that we should not trust in what He has instructed for salvation.

But we are no longer required to live by such a "flawed performance," imperfectly performed by flawed human beings. Instead, we now follow Christ under a system that did *not* require of him the Law and its remedies for human sinfulness. Rather, we follow Christ as a means of Grace under a system that required *nothing* to purify him of sin, and so do not need the superstructure that could never perfect our human failures.
Obedience to God's law has nothing to do with needing to have a good enough performance. Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example and the way to follow him is not by refusing to follow what he taught. In Psalms 119:29, he wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, so that is what it means to be under grace.

You've denied over and over again what I shared about the Law being expired in favor of a brand new NT system. Yet it is there in black and white. You obviously lack understanding of the book of Romans, where all the things I stated were clearly stated, although those who have been misled misinterpret Paul's teachings.
In Psalms 119:160, all of God's righteous laws are eternal, which is black and white. In Romans 3:31, Paul said that our faith does not abolish our need to obey God's law, but rather our faith upholds it, again black and white. In 2 Peter 3:15-18, it says that Paul is difficult to understand, that those who are ignorant and unstable twist his words to their own destruction, it warns against being carried away by the error of lawless men, and it encourages us to grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, so we can be confident that when Paul is correctly understood that he never spoke against obeying God's law. Furthermore, in Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he might know Him, so obedience to God's law is the way to grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Instruction for how to testify about God's nature can't expire without God expiring first.

If you wish to understand more precisely and in clearer language where the NT Scriptures teach these things, just ask. But if your agenda remains to teach what the Paul considered to be heresy, I've said all I need to say to you.
My goal is to teach in accordance with what Paul taught and it is absurd to think that he considered teaching obedience to God's commands in accordance with following Christ's example to be heresy, but rather he delighted in obeying the Mosaic Law (Romans 7:22).

In a nutshell, let me put the expiration of the OT legal system in an example. The Law of Moses was like a marriage covenant made with Israel. And yet God anticipated that Israel would fail that covenant.

He provided restitution under that system, to maintain it in perpetuity because God's marriage covenant was designed to be eternal. And yet, God also knew that the means of correcting Israel's failures would overload the system itself and that it would collapse as failure became epidemic in the nation and beyond repair.

And so, God also anticipated the need to repair and replace the entire system with a system that would never fail. We call that system "Christian Grace" today.

The New Covenant sustains the marriage God originally started with Israel, but is not contingent upon repairing the Law as a Covenant system. As the New Covenant came into play, all of the repairs loaded into the OT system would no longer need to be applied.

Temple ritual, and priestly sacrifices, would no longer be required when the Marriage Covenant had been completely secured for all eternity. The system of Christ's Grace would replace the Law as that eternal system.

This process is shown as anticipated by God in the Prophets. God showed the Prophets that Israel would suffer a Divorce under the system of Law. The entire nation would fall into apostasy, with a few exceptions, and the entire temple system would be taken away, as well as their place in the land of their marriage to God.

But this Marriage was repaired by a restoration of the Law (Zerubbabel), and not by the mechanics of the Law itself, since appeasement to God was no longer possible under a system the superstructure of which had completely collapsed. No sacrifice could be made under a temple system when the temple had been completely destroyed.

And so, God by grace had the temple rebuilt, showing that a catastrophic failure of the Law could be repaired and restored. However, this merely anticipated the coming system of Grace through Christ, when he would repair God's marriage with Israel by inserting himself as the "restored temple."
Indeed, the Mosaic Covenant is a marriage between God and Israel, which means that the Mosaic Law is God's instructions for how to have an intimate relationship with Him. Some people kept the Mosaic Covenant while others did not, but that does not change the eternal way to have an intimate relationship with God. The problem was not with God's instructions for how to have an intimate relationship with Him, but with people not following those instructions, so the salutation to the problem was to make the New Covenant, where God would put the Mosaic Law in our minds and write it on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33), where he would take away our hearts of stone, give us hearts of flesh, and send His Spirit to lead us to obey the Mosaic Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27), and where he would send His Son to free us from sin so that we might be free to obey the Mosaic Law and fulfill its righteous requirement (Romans 8:3-4). Christians grace is God teaching us to obey the Mosaic Law (Psalms 119:29, Exodus 33:13, Genesis 6:8-9, Romans 1:5, Titus 2:11-14). By all means please back up what you are saying by citing where the Bible states them, and if you think that I've misinterpreted the verses that I've cited, then please explain why.
 
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RandyPNW

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Salvation by law is the position that we are required to have first obeyed God's law in order to become saved as the result as through it were earned as a wage. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation by obeying it, living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not living in obedience to it.
Our salvation is not just from Sin but also from the Law as a system. That is transparently clear from Paul in Galatians.

Gal 3.2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?

The entire purpose of the Law, according to Paul, was to show Israel that man, apart from Christian redemption, could not achieve atonement for sin, apart from Christian Grace. This would amount to an effort by the "flesh" to obtain self-atonement, once Christ had already achieved that for which the Law had really come!

The purpose of the Law was to get Israel to *live in Christ* once he had come. To remain in the Law would be to ignore God's final word on redemption. The Law was just a temporary word from God leading to His final word on redemption.

John said that Sin is the transgression of the Law, not at all meaning that transgressing the Law is solely the source of Sin. On the contrary, Paul argued that Sin preexisted the Law, meaning that God's Law preceded the Law of Moses.

Rom 5.12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given.


And Israel's Sin, as defined under the Law, was purely an example of what the whole Human Race does without the Law. We all transgress God's Law from the beginning, which was not the Law of Moses, but rather, the Law of living in God's Image.

Rom 3.19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
God does not put His people under bondage, but rather He frees us from bondage and His law is of freedom (Psalms 119:45).
The Law did liberate Israel from the curses that came down upon them when they failed under the Law. But they were still bound by the 613 commands or so of the Law. And Paul said that was a bondage that Christ now has freed us from in order to free us from its condemnation.

We are freed from both the Law and its condemnation when we choose to live in Christ now that he has come. We have no need to portray a need for redemption through the rituals of the Law when we have freedom from condemnation by living in Christ.

Gal 6.12 Those who want to impress people by means of the flesh are trying to compel you to be circumcised. The only reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. 13 Not even those who are circumcised keep the law, yet they want you to be circumcised that they may boast about your circumcision in the flesh. 14 May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

What Paul means here is the same that Jesus meant. Jesus warned that Pharisees would use the traditions of the Law as a self-effort to obtain Salvation in order to bind them in submission to themselves. To be "crucified with Christ" is to let go of self-will or living independent of God. We are crucifying the pagan world for ourselves, and allowing ourselves to be crucified, along with our independent will, so that we do not live in a carnal way.

Laws do not achieve "spiritual submission" to Christ! They are just a tool of men to get us to conform to a tradition they themselves are hoping to establish.
If God freed the Israelites from bondage in Egypt in order to put them under bondage to His law, then it would be for bondage that God sets us free, however, Galatians 5:1 says that it is for freedom that God sets us free. In Psalms 119:142, the Mosaic Law is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is sin in transgression of the Mosaic Law that puts us in bondage while it is the truth that sets us free, so I do not want to put anyone under bondage, but rather I want people to be free from it. Christ is God's word made flesh, so the way to place a complete trust in Christ is by obeying God's word while it is contradicts to think that we should trust in God for salvation, but that we should not trust in what He has instructed for salvation.
You are conflating OT and NT truth. Christ, under the Law, wanted Israel to be free from the bondage of sin in their lives, which is indeed a bondage when men do not rely upon the Spirit of God for their righteousness. There is a vacuum in our lives, and we must either turn to God's word in our conscience or to our own independent ways, which are enslaved to Sin.
Obedience to God's law has nothing to do with needing to have a good enough performance. Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example and the way to follow him is not by refusing to follow what he taught. In Psalms 119:29, he wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, so that is what it means to be under grace.
Although Christ indeed wanted men to live properly under the Law while that system was still in effect, he also anticipated a time when men would no longer "worship in Jerusalem" or "at the temple." And so, Jesus promoted righteousness both while the Law remained in effect and after the cross would end all human efforts to be justified under the Law.

The Law was never designed to promote a "self-effort" at justifying one's self. Rather, it was designed to show the futility of that effort, by showing not just the need to live by God's Spirit but also to show that final redemption could only come by the perfect man, Jesus. We must live in him, and no longer under the Law, which was a temporary system.

Gal 3.19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.
In Psalms 119:160, all of God's righteous laws are eternal, which is black and white. In Romans 3:31, Paul said that our faith does not abolish our need to obey God's law, but rather our faith upholds it, again black and white.
That is a complete misrepresentation of Paul's words and theology, which clearly saw an "expiration date" on the Law of Moses, which was at the Cross where Jesus said, "It is finished." No more temple, no more priesthood, no more sacrifice.

Just Christ. Just like at the Transfiguration. Don't listen to Elijah, don't listen to Moses--just listen to Jesus.
My goal is to teach in accordance with what Paul taught and it is absurd to think that he considered teaching obedience to God's commands in accordance with following Christ's example to be heresy, but rather he delighted in obeying the Mosaic Law (Romans 7:22).
Unfortunately, you've been misled and need to get back to "Christ alone," if you have even ever been there! My interest is in your spiritual wholeness. And I want others to not be distracted by a "return to the Law" and to experience unbridled spiritual wholeness, as well.
Indeed, the Mosaic Covenant is a marriage between God and Israel, which means that the Mosaic Law is God's instructions for how to have an intimate relationship with Him. Some people kept the Mosaic Covenant while others did not, but that does not change the eternal way to have an intimate relationship with God. The problem was not with God's instructions for how to have an intimate relationship with Him, but with people not following those instructions, so the salutation to the problem was to make the New Covenant, where God would put the Mosaic Law in our minds and write it on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33), where he would take away our hearts of stone, give us hearts of flesh, and send His Spirit to lead us to obey the Mosaic Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27), and where he would send His Son to free us from sin so that we might be free to obey the Mosaic Law and fulfill its righteous requirement (Romans 8:3-4). Christians grace is God teaching us to obey the Mosaic Law (Psalms 119:29, Exodus 33:13, Genesis 6:8-9, Romans 1:5, Titus 2:11-14). By all means please back up what you are saying by citing where the Bible states them, and if you think that I've misinterpreted the verses that I've cited, then please explain why.
I never said God had a problem with the Covenant of Law working! I agree--the problem was with Israel's sin and failure to keep God's laws.

But it was not just their failure to keep God's word under the Law. It was the human problem of failure to keep God's law to their heart, to live in God's image. It was a spirituality problem, a spirituality vs. carnality problem--the need to be spiritually born again.

Sin is not restricted to the Law--the Law was only given to Israel. But the Law was given to Israel to show the whole world the problem of human sin, which is failure to live by God's word in our conscience.

The "new heart" prophecy only confuses the matter, and distracts these issues. Any example of grace, OT or NT, requires that men adopt a new attitude, a new mind, and a new heart--essentially, a new spirituality. Any time Israel truly repented, they "changed their heart." They went from being carnal, or living by their own will, to living in partnership with God, drawing exclusively upon His spirituality.

The Law was a temporary system that was indeed "spiritual" and "according to God's word" as long as that system remained in effect and was not yet fulfilled. Once Christ fulfilled that system by replacing it with its eternal fulfillment, following the Law became a carnal system just like any pagan system. It came to be a matter of ignoring God's word of redemption in our conscience. Even Nicodemus, under the OT system of Law, should have known this!

What the prophecy of the "new heart" really says, and the part that is significant, is that it says a brand *new* covenant would replace the previous covenant of Law...

Jer 31.31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant

I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand

to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,”
declares the Lord.


Grace is not a return to the Law such as when people made an error under the Law and reconciled with God under prescription of the Law. Neither is Grace a restoration of the Law after that system has been destroyed.

Under Zerubbabel the temple was rebuilt by God's grace, but that was not NT Grace. That was an example of grace under the OT era, in which NT Grace had yet to be fulfilled.

NT Grace is the complete replacement of the Law as a system. It is the complete replacement of the Law even after it had temporarily been restored under the OT means of grace. What it is replaced with is the NT system that Christ alone provides.

Here there are no laws of Moses. Those laws project the morality and the spirituality of God, which are eternal. But as a system, it could not rely upon Israel's observance, which is what that Covenant required.

So the NT system is based upon Christ's observance and fulfillment alone. He fulfilled what was alluded to under the Old Covenant, that only Christ's observance could fulfill for eternity God's covenant with Israel. But there is the same Law of God and spirituality of God that was required of Man from the beginning, to live in His image and to respond to His word in our conscience.

Jesus said that man-inspired traditions bind men to those rules and keep them in their sins. Paul reflected the same by claiming that returning to the Law, now that the Law is gone, binds men to man-inspired traditions, and does not free them from their Sin Nature.

Gal 3.18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.
19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.


At one time the tradition of the Law was beautiful and perfect, but that was in its time, when the word of God required that in the moment. But it was always ever meant to lead to an *eternal fulfillment,* which only comes by living in Christ. To ignore that word to our heart is Sin, just as it was in the beginning and as it was under the Law. We dare not ignore the word of Christ to our hearts!
 
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timothyu

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And Israel's Sin, as defined under the Law, was purely an example of what the whole Human Race does without the Law. We all transgress God's Law from the beginning
Or simply put, following our own will which is based on self interest, rather than God's will that is based on interest in others for the same as we would care for ourselves. But Jesus said in the Lord's prayer there is hope that one day God's will will be done in earth, and the authority of man over man will be removed.
 
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Clare73

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John said that Sin is the transgression of the Law, not at all meaning that transgressing the Law is solely the source of Sin. On the contrary, Paul argued that Sin preexisted the Law, meaning that God's Law preceded the Law of Moses.
Actually, in Ro 5:12-14 Paul is demonstrating the cause of death between between Adam and Moses as being the imputation of Adam's sin, as the pattern (Ro 5:14) for Christ's righteousness likewise being imputed (Ro 3:22-23, 4:1-11, Ro 5:18-19).
 
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RandyPNW

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Or simply put, following our own will which is based on self interest, rather than God's will that is based on interest in others for the same as we would care for ourselves. But Jesus said in the Lord's prayer there is hope that one day God's will will be done in earth, and the authority of man over man will be removed.
Put simply, all God asks of us is our friendship, our fellowship, and to acknowledge Him as the source of love so that we will have that love too. That's a Kingdom that I'm aiming towards! :)
 
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Actually, in Ro 5:12-14 Paul is demonstrating the cause of death between between Adam and Moses as being the imputation of Adam's sin, as the pattern (Ro 5:14) for Christ's righteousness likewise being imputed (Ro 4:1-11, Ro 5:18-19).
I have no idea what you're trying to prove? Of course death is the result of Sin.

But Sin is, we know, a spiritual inheritance fostered upon all of mankind. We are born with a predilection towards sin--the Sin impulse, as some see it. And so, the fact people die in every generation, or the fact that all people die, indicates that Sin has been around well before the Law came to expose this Sinful Nature.

In other words, Sin is not strictly defined by Sin. But in the culture of the Jews, Sin is, in fact, defined by Sin, whether under OT terms or NT terms. In OT terms, Sin was transgressing the Law because at that time God's word to the heart demanded compliance with it.

But under NT terms, the Law represented God's Spirit and word calling men into compliance with the Spirit of Christ, who had no need to obey the Law. The Law was for transgressors. But Jesus had no sin, and therefore no need for appropriating redemption under terms of the Law.

To Sin today is not a matter of transgressing the Law, whether for the Jew or the non-Jew. It is transgressing what the Law of Moses had implied with respect to God's eternal Law for mankind.

Our call is to obey the voice of God to our conscience in every generation. Since nobody is any longer under the Law, God's voice does not call us to comply with the Law. Therefore, the Law would define Sin today strictly as disobeying God's word to our conscience in the matter of appropriating Christ.

If we do appropriate Christ's word we will also appropriate his redemption, and our sins will be forgiven. But if we claim God's word is telling us to obey the Law of Moses, we Sin by misrepresenting what God is actually saying to us with respect to our need for redemption in Christ.

Sin is not merely "imputed"--it is something that has become part of human nature since Adam and Eve. We were born in Sin. I hope you believe that?
 
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timothyu

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Put simply, all God asks of us is our friendship, our fellowship, and to acknowledge Him as the source of love so that we will have that love too.
It's not a free ride. We still need to follow. We weren't created just to exist.
 
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I have no idea what you're trying to prove?
I know. . .but well done.
Just clearing up an important NT point of doctrine; i.e., imputation of the sin of Adam as well as the righteousness of Christ (Ro 5:18-19).

For Paul in his statement that
1) sin existed between Adam and Moses
(Ro 5:12) is not saying that God's law preceded the Mosaic law, for Paul states
2) but there was no law (specific command with death penalty attached as in the Garden, Ge 2:17) to sin against (transgress) between Adam and Moses (Ro 5:13),
and those two facts are the conundrum Paul is presenting. . .to demonstrate that
all mankind between Adam and Moses died, not because of their own transgression of law (of which there was no law to transgress as did Adam; i.e., specific command, "Thous shalt not," with death penalty attached),
but because of Adam's transgression of the law imputed to them. . .and which was the pattern (Ro 5:14) for Christ's righteousness being imputed (Ro 3:22-23, 4:1-11, 5:18-19) by faith. . .as righteousness was imputed to Abraham by faith (Ge 15:6).
Of course death is the result of Sin.

But Sin is, we know, a spiritual inheritance fostered upon all of mankind.
Actually, sin is not inherited (Eze 18:20), it is imputed (Ro 5:12-14).
It is our sinful nature that is inherited.
We are born with a predilection towards sin--the Sin impulse, as some see it. And so, the fact people die in every generation, or the fact that all people die, indicates that Sin has been around well before the Law came to expose this Sinful Nature.
Correct. . .sin has been around since before the Mosaic law,
and Paul's point in Ro 5:12:14 is that sin was around (Ro 5:12), even when there was no law to transgress as did Adam (Ro 5:14).
In other words, Sin is not strictly defined by Sin.
Well done!

Sin = missing the mark.
Transgression = knowing, willful, deliberate violation of the law, punishable by death, as in the Garden.

Not all sin is transgression (knowing, willful, deliberate violation of the line).
But all transgression is sin (missing the mark).
But in the culture of the Jews, Sin is, in fact, defined by Sin, whether under OT terms or NT terms. In OT terms, Sin was transgressing the Law because at that time God's word to the heart demanded compliance with it.
But under NT terms, the Law represented God's Spirit and word calling men into compliance with the Spirit of Christ, who had no need to obey the Law. The Law was for transgressors. But Jesus had no sin, and therefore no need for appropriating redemption under terms of the Law.
To Sin today is not a matter of transgressing the Law, whether for the Jew or the non-Jew. It is transgressing what the Law of Moses had implied with respect to God's eternal Law for mankind.
Our call is to obey the voice of God to our conscience in every generation. Since nobody is any longer under the Law, God's voice does not call us to comply with the Law. Therefore, the Law would define Sin today strictly as disobeying God's word to our conscience in the matter of appropriating Christ.
If we do appropriate Christ's word we will also appropriate his redemption, and our sins will be forgiven. But if we claim God's word is telling us to obey the Law of Moses, we Sin by misrepresenting what God is actually saying to us with respect to our need for redemption in Christ.
Sin is not merely "imputed"--it is something that has become part of human nature since Adam and Eve. We were born in Sin. I hope you believe that?
Indeed, we are guilty of our own committed sin, as well as of Adam's imputed sin.

God has shut up all men in sin (imputation does that!) so that all must depend on his mercy (Ro 11:32).
 
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