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The Moral Argument

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(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

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So God both is morality and at the same time above morality? There is no act that God cannot do for the sake of His plan, or purpose, or what-have-you that we could ever call immoral simply because He created us. Yet He is supposed to be the yardstick that we measure our morality on. What He says morality to be is then morality, and not Him. He is not morality itself as morality that applies to us in any way has absolutely nothing to do with him. He can, at best, have knowledge of what the best things that we can do are, and what the worst things that we can do are, based on a definition of morality.

Now if we can agree on a definition of morality that doesn't demand design behind it (i.e. purpose = morality) then we can reason our way to the best possible morality without God, at least eventually. But if the definition of morality itself demands a designer, such as that definition does, then this whole argument fails because most people don't define morality as "obey God" and nothing else.

I posed the question to Sapiens as well, but I'll ask you too. If you built and programmed a robot full of emotions, and physical feelings, and aspirations, and dreams, and desires, you really feel that you have the moral authority to cause that robot pain and suffering simply because you created it?
An example would be to kill. Because God is the creator of life, He is the only being that has the authority to take human life or give human life. Murder is taking someone's life in a manner outside of the authority that was given to you by God. Self defense, capital punishment, war, ect...is killing, not murder, because God has given authority to do so. So it is impossible for God to murder because only God has the authority to take life or to give that authority to others.
 
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Davian

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The direction of the ceiling of the space craft?
It always annoyed me a little bit that 1) non-planetfall spaceships in science fiction typically followed planet-bound designs (only one "up", as in the Enterprise NCC-1701) and that 2) after travelling thousands of light-years, they run into a previously unknown alien species that is also using the exact same direction for "up".

If only once they can encountered an alien spaceship where the alien's map of the galaxy was 180º or so off from the Federation's...
 
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Davian

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An example would be to kill. Because God is the creator of life, He is the only being that has the authority to take human life or give human life. Murder is taking someone's life in a manner outside of the authority that was given to you by God. Self defense, capital punishment, war, ect...is killing, not murder, because God has given authority to do so. So it is impossible for God to murder because only God has the authority to take life or to give that authority to others.
Exactly what form does this "granting of authority" take? A letter? Stone tablet? You hear voices?

Because some of your statements make it obvious. I just wanted to be sure.
What was it in particular?
 
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Davian

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What are you?
Are you responding to my paraphrasing of your post? ^_^
Well, if you're asking, I would say you are more of an apatheist than anything.
That is not incompatible with ignosticism.

Is that a retraction of your judgement of inconsistency?
 
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Davian

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And what of the atheist philanthropist when she dies?
Is the gender of the person of some significance, seeing as you just added that? Aiming for a [fallacious] appeal to emotion? Was the serial killer in question male or female?

I suppose they have the same options as everyone else, plus a few more, such as being cryonically cryopreserved.

How does this relate to the OP?
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Tell me Arch, Davian, and Manchild....

What becomes of the serial killer when he dies?
Tell me, Jeremy...

Are you ever going to answer the questions put to you? Or will you retreat pusillanimously after behaving smug, as you always do?
 
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Davian

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Tell me, Jeremy...

Are you ever going to answer the questions put to you? Or will you retreat pusillanimously after behaving smug, as you always do?
Are you subscribed to the word of the month club?

I suspect that our questions will remain unanswered, as he works out this alternative methodology for dealing with difficult questions.
 
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anonymous person

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There's the rub.

The atheist philanthropist suffers the same fate as the serial rapist.

Gender is irrelevant. How they lived is irrelevant. What they said is irrelevant. What they believed is irrelevant. How much they gave or how much they took is irrelevant to the fact that they both die and cease to be.

And you really want to talk about justice?

I don't think you really want to go there.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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There's the rub.

The atheist philanthropist suffers the same fate as the serial rapist.

Gender is irrelevant. How they lived is irrelevant. What they said is irrelevant. What they believed is irrelevant. How much they gave or how much they took is irrelevant to the fact that they both die and cease to be.

And you really want to talk about justice?

I don't think you really want to go there.
Yes, we do want to "go there." But you don't, which is why you refused to answer this question.
 
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Davian

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There's the rub.

The atheist philanthropist suffers the same fate as the serial rapist.
Pretty much, barring the extremely faint chance that those few frozen individuals may be successfully thawed and resuscitated in the far future.
Gender is irrelevant.
Yet you added it to your post as if it were.
How they lived is irrelevant. What they said is irrelevant. What they believed is irrelevant. How much they gave or how much they took is irrelevant to the fact that they both die and cease to be.
Are you making a [fallacious] argument from consequences?
And you really want to talk about justice?
I made no claim of justice. The theology proffered by the OP simply redefined justice to be, "believe, or else...".
I don't think you really want to go there.
I am already there. Care to venture outside of your presuppositions?
 
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anonymous person

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Pretty much, barring the extremely faint chance that those few frozen individuals may be successfully thawed and resuscitated in the far future.

Yet you added it to your post as if it were.

Are you making a [fallacious] argument from consequences?

I made no claim of justice. The theology proffered by the OP simply redefined justice to be, "believe, or else...".

I am already there. Care to venture outside of your presuppositions?

You are so insulated and committed to your godless views that you are bold enough to speak about dead bodies being frozen and later thawed out and resuscitated when the point is put to you that you and the people you rail against will suffer the same fate.

I fear for you. I fear that your mind is so depraved and so far gone that you don't even comprehend how hopelessly deceived and deluded you are.

I pray God is merciful to you. I pray you come to the place where you can in sincerity deal with the thing that has sent you down this long road of denial and self delusion and which has left you little better than Nietzsche was when he was lying in an insane asylum, raging and railing like a madman.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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I'm not answering any of your questions. Your time and mine is too valuable for me to waste on doing so.
You are half-right. My time is valuable; too valuable to waste in giving your posts more attention than they deserve. If you find that my responses to your posts seem terse, that would be the reason why.
I have observed how you are on this forum Ben. You sit back and question, you critique, you criticize, you mock, you ridicule. That's your modus operandi. Very rarely do you ever clearly define your views and present a case for them.
And I have observed how you are on this forum, Jeremy. I'm really quite sorry to say, but you are the most shameless and self-aggrandising apologist I have ever met. You call for "complete transparency" (1), yet you lie (2); you call for love (3), yet you aren't above calling people "dogs" and "swine" (4); you pretend that you are reasonable, but you simply will not be reasoned with; you pretend to be sincere in your desire for conversation, yet you evade at every turn.
 
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anonymous person

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You are half-right. My time is valuable; too valuable to waste in giving your posts more attention than they deserve. If you find that my responses to your posts seem terse, that would be the reason why.

And I have observed how you are on this forum, Jeremy. I'm really quite sorry to say, but you are the most shameless and self-aggrandising apologist I have ever met. You call for "complete transparency" (1), yet you lie (2); you call for love (3), yet you aren't above calling people "dogs" and "swine" (4); you pretend that you are reasonable, but you simply will not be reasoned with; you pretend to be sincere in your desire for conversation, yet you evade at every turn.

I thank you for sharing that with me. You are in my prayers. ☺
 
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Archaeopteryx

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I'm not answering any of your questions. Your time and mine is too valuable for me to waste on doing so.
The fact that you think answering questions about your position and supporting your claims is a "waste of time" tells us all we need to know about whether we should take you seriously.
 
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anonymous person

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The fact that you think answering questions about your position and supporting your claims is a "waste of time" tells us all we need to know about whether we should take you seriously.
It's a waste of time because that is not what you need from me. You're smart. You don't need me to tell you about my views. I've been doing that here for several years now. You need for me to love you and to show you that you are special and that I care for your well being. You don't need arguments. You need the presence of God.
 
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