The Moral Argument (revamped)

[createdtoworship]

I learned about evolution (remember you specifically mentioned the word “evolution”), in Biology class.

So no, I didn’t mean Anthropology.

And my point still stands...

they didn't teach evolution in biology when I was in highschool. I learned it in college, in a class just on evolution. That is the way it should be. They should cram non science down your throat. Or at very minimal teach the controversy behind evolution. 8 states have passed laws that allow teachers to teach a curriculum, called "teach the controversy." And it shows not only the strengths of evolution, but the numerous and obvious weaknesses.

 

[createdtoworship]

Take it up with the scientists.

I am taking it up with you. If you are not qualified, then state so. I have talked to half a dozen scientists ranging from biologists to astronomers. And neither chemical evolution, biological evolution, or stellar evolution has any observational evidence. When I asked them for evidence, they resorted to micro evolution, which is nothing more than natural selection. Natural selection does not allow a non human to become a human or vice versa. No observational data. And that fact that you don't have any data yourself, yet you trust (have faith) in science, is alarming. Especially since I have taught you that you can't prove anything. No facts, nothing. You can only provide evidence. So you have faith in these humanistic teachers that they will save you, but when you die you will be alone, with God. The person you don't believe in, and He will say, "Hey remember that one guy gradyLL, that was not him speaking to you, that was ME"

and you will be without excuse.

 

[Moral Orel]

I am taking it up with you. If you are not qualified, then state so. I have talked to half a dozen scientists ranging from biologists to astronomers. And neither chemical evolution, biological evolution, or stellar evolution has any observational evidence. When I asked them for evidence, they resorted to micro evolution, which is nothing more than natural selection. Natural selection does not allow a non human to become a human or vice versa. No observational data. And that fact that you don't have any data yourself, yet you trust (have faith) in science, is alarming. Especially since I have taught you that you can't prove anything. No facts, nothing. You can only provide evidence. So you have faith in these humanistic teachers that they will save you, but when you die you will be alone, with God. The person you don't believe in, and He will say, "Hey remember that one guy gradyLL, that was not him speaking to you, that was ME"

and you will be without excuse.

So you just take it on faith that there is such a thing as "a billion". You've never counted to a billion, so you haven't observed that it exists. And since there is no observational evidence of a billion, we should reject any belief in it. It must be false.

 

[gaara4158]

I am taking it up with you. If you are not qualified, then state so. I have talked to half a dozen scientists ranging from biologists to astronomers. And neither chemical evolution, biological evolution, or stellar evolution has any observational evidence. When I asked them for evidence, they resorted to micro evolution, which is nothing more than natural selection. Natural selection does not allow a non human to become a human or vice versa. No observational data. And that fact that you don't have any data yourself, yet you trust (have faith) in science, is alarming. Especially since I have taught you that you can't prove anything. No facts, nothing. You can only provide evidence. So you have faith in these humanistic teachers that they will save you, but when you die you will be alone, with God. The person you don't believe in, and He will say, "Hey remember that one guy gradyLL, that was not him speaking to you, that was ME"

and you will be without excuse.

It’s not that I’m not qualified. Anyone with an eighth grade education is qualified to correct your gross misconceptions. While making sport of creationists can be entertaining, it’s not fair to the creationist. I wouldn’t be entering the discussion with a goal of teaching or learning from you. It would only be me identifying your errors and finding stylish ways to dunk on you. You wouldn’t understand or accept my replies, so you wouldn’t benefit from them. You’ve already decided you’re unquestionably correct as demonstrated by your fantasy that God is speaking through you. And I don’t have the patience or time to meet you where you’re at with your belief, so I simply abstain from discussion on creationism/ID for the same reasons I don’t poke fun at the disabled. It would just be mean-spirited.

 

[createdtoworship]

So you just take it on faith that there is such a thing as "a billion". You've never counted to a billion, so you haven't observed that it exists. And since there is no observational evidence of a billion, we should reject any belief in it. It must be false.

actually math is one of the few things that does have solid proof, in fact they are actually called mathematical proofs.

 

[createdtoworship]

It’s not that I’m not qualified. Anyone with an eighth grade education is qualified to correct your gross misconceptions. While making sport of creationists can be entertaining, it’s not fair to the creationist. I wouldn’t be entering the discussion with a goal of teaching or learning from you. It would only be me identifying your errors and finding stylish ways to dunk on you. You wouldn’t understand or accept my replies, so you wouldn’t benefit from them. You’ve already decided you’re unquestionably correct as demonstrated by your fantasy that God is speaking through you. And I don’t have the patience or time to meet you where you’re at with your belief, so I simply abstain from discussion on creationism/ID for the same reasons I don’t poke fun at the disabled. It would just be mean-spirited.

wow that was rude. Thanks. That just means I am effective. When you shine light in someone's eyes they usually get offended.

 

[Tinker Grey]

No, it means you are some combination of ineffective, wrong, and other adjectives that I'll skip.

 

[gaara4158]

wow that was rude. Thanks. That just means I am effective. When you shine light in someone's eyes they usually get offended.

Well... you did just get offended. But I was just being honest. It was actually a theist whom I highly respect that convinced me not to engage creationists anymore because it’s all just ego-gratifying sport.

 

[createdtoworship]

No, it means you are some combination of ineffective, wrong, and other adjectives that I'll skip.

again, getting frustrated is the wrong path. Honesty, integrity, and truth is what we should all strive for. I am wrong a lot, but I am not wrong on this.

 

[createdtoworship]

Well... you did just get offended. But I was just being honest. It was actually a theist whom I highly respect that convinced me not to engage creationists anymore because it’s all just ego-gratifying sport.

I don't question that other believers wisdom regarding getting out of evolution debate. I got out years ago. But I wasn't offended by what you said. I don't take it personally. I guess if I was losing badly, I may be more sensitive. It's usually the losing party that becomes a sore loser I have seen in the past. Just think of all those people who were yelling and screaming when Trump got elected or when Brett Kauvanaugh got confirmed. It was the losing party that was making the biggest stink. But thank you for allowing me the opportunity to again take the higher road and not give insult to insult. I have been trying to be polite more and more, but it's a process. I am a stinker more often than I wish to be, thats for sure. The saying goes true, "I am not what I need to be, but I thank God I am not what I used to be."

 

[createdtoworship]

I thought I would update you guys on some of todays prayer requests. I was upset yesterday when I got home from work and I seen a sheet that says my oldest boy is in a talent show at his school. But it was in the morning, while I am at work. I have missed the last two years so I really wanted to go and show my support for my son. The problem is that I only had enough vacation for the winter layoffs that we have every christmas and thanksgiving. I had 12 days for this year, and I have kept tedious paper records as well as asking for a recount every time I take a vacation day off. Well me and my wife decided that I was not to take any more vacation days off that I needed them for winter. I was in trouble. So I prayed. I said "God if it be your will please grant me one more vacation day, by a miracle." When I went in today, they recounted and instead of 12 days, I had 17! I asked God for one day, He gave me five extra days! Not only did God answer my request for a 4,000 dollar tax refund this year (instead of the 3,000 dollar normal refund), he provided an extra thousand dollars in vacation days! Not only this but my 401k is up 10 percent this last month or two since I have been praying for God to bless my retirement. I made lots and lots of stocktrades without God's blessing and lost thousands of dollars, then with His blessing I placed two long term trades this last few months, and one was up 10% sold, and the other was up 58%. God made my trades 100% successful over the last few months. Of the thousands of dollars I have lost in the past 5 years on the market and through hard circumstances, He paid back half of it in a matter of months. I talked to another guy at work today, sharing this praise report. And He said he lost his keys awhile back while he was riding his bike. So he prayed to God to find his keys (I guess they had his name etc on a key ring). While he was praying and retracing his steps on his bike, he felt a bump that he ran over, It was his keys! God answers prayer!

 

[Tinker Grey]

again, getting frustrated is the wrong path. Honesty, integrity, and truth is what we should all strive for. I am wrong a lot, but I am not wrong on this.

Yes, you are wrong on this.

 

[gaara4158]

I don't question that other believers wisdom regarding getting out of evolution debate. I got out years ago. But I wasn't offended by what you said. I don't take it personally. I guess if I was losing badly, I may be more sensitive. It's usually the losing party that becomes a sore loser I have seen in the past. Just think of all those people who were yelling and screaming when Trump got elected or when Brett Kauvanaugh got confirmed. It was the losing party that was making the biggest stink. But thank you for allowing me the opportunity to again take the higher road and not give insult to insult. I have been trying to be polite more and more, but it's a process. I am a stinker more often than I wish to be, thats for sure. The saying goes true, "I am not what I need to be, but I thank God I am not what I used to be."

Whatever you need to tell yourself is fine by me. Just don't make arguments here that require a rejection of basic science and expect to be met with anything but dismissal.

 

[createdtoworship]

Whatever you need to tell yourself is fine by me. Just don't make arguments here that require a rejection of basic science and expect to be met with anything but dismissal.

you can use the bandwagon fallacy all you want, but it is not a convincing stance in debate.

 

[gaara4158]

you can use the bandwagon fallacy all you want, but it is not a convincing stance in debate.

I posted plenty of references.

 

[gaara4158]

you can use the bandwagon fallacy all you want, but it is not a convincing stance in debate.

Scientific consensus is not the bandwagon fallacy. But please if you won’t learn it from me, let these articles bounce around in that infallible mind of yours.


Appeal to Scientific Consensus is not an Appeal to Popularity or Authority | Debunking Denialism

Scientific Consensus and the Argumentum ad Populum

Logical Fallacies: Argument from Authority versus the Scientific Consensus

 

[ToddNotTodd]

wow that was rude. Thanks. That just means I am effective. When you shine light in someone's eyes they usually get offended.

You are not effective. Quite the opposite. I’ve already told you that recently a woman I know deconverted, in part due to threads like this one.

My Christian friends are saying you’re doing more harm than good. They say they can see how people can be swayed away from religion if this is what passes for apologetics.

I’m telling you this, knowing full well that it won’t make any difference to you at all.

It’s truly mind boggling to me that you’re just going to keep doing it.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I thought I would update you guys on some of todays prayer requests. I was upset yesterday when I got home from work and I seen a sheet that says my oldest boy is in a talent show at his school. But it was in the morning, while I am at work. I have missed the last two years so I really wanted to go and show my support for my son. The problem is that I only had enough vacation for the winter layoffs that we have every christmas and thanksgiving. I had 12 days for this year, and I have kept tedious paper records as well as asking for a recount every time I take a vacation day off. Well me and my wife decided that I was not to take any more vacation days off that I needed them for winter. I was in trouble. So I prayed. I said "God if it be your will please grant me one more vacation day, by a miracle." When I went in today, they recounted and instead of 12 days, I had 17! I asked God for one day, He gave me five extra days! Not only did God answer my request for a 4,000 dollar tax refund this year (instead of the 3,000 dollar normal refund), he provided an extra thousand dollars in vacation days! Not only this but my 401k is up 10 percent this last month or two since I have been praying for God to bless my retirement. I made lots and lots of stocktrades without God's blessing and lost thousands of dollars, then with His blessing I placed two long term trades this last few months, and one was up 10% sold, and the other was up 58%. God made my trades 100% successful over the last few months. Of the thousands of dollars I have lost in the past 5 years on the market and through hard circumstances, He paid back half of it in a matter of months. I talked to another guy at work today, sharing this praise report. And He said he lost his keys awhile back while he was riding his bike. So he prayed to God to find his keys (I guess they had his name etc on a key ring). While he was praying and retracing his steps on his bike, he felt a bump that he ran over, It was his keys! God answers prayer!

Why should anyone believe any of this?

 

[gaara4158]

You are not effective. Quite the opposite. I’ve already told you that recently a woman I know deconverted, in part due to threads like this one.

My Christian friends are saying you’re doing more harm than good. They say they can see how people can be swayed away from religion if this is what passes for apologetics.

I’m telling you this, knowing full well that it won’t make any difference to you at all.

It’s truly mind boggling to me that you’re just going to keep doing it.

Does he wonder why no theists are helping him in these threads? Some are even arguing against him now. If it were me I’d take it as a sign I was doing something wrong. But not this guy...

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Does he wonder why no theists are helping him in these threads? Some are even arguing against him now. If it were me I’d take it as a sign I was doing something wrong. But not this guy...

I’ve seen it over and over through the years.

Sometimes I’ll get the “It’s the Holy Spirit that convicts people, not my words. So I can’t be doing anything wrong.” line. Sometimes it’s the “I’ve actually convinced you, you’re just scared to admit it.” line.

At the end of it, they just keep shooting the ball into their own baskets, and claiming they’re helping their team.