The Meaning of Predestination to this Non Calvinist

[chestertonrules]

I believe that God is outside of time, and I think most of those reading this do as well.

This means that all our actions are known to God, past, present and future. Our works, our faith, our seeking of his grace, etc. have already happened.

He knows us completely, but we aren't there yet. I believe that the elect are already chosen when viewed from his perspective.


The question is, based on what criteria are we chosen? The Calvinist, who believe unconditional election is true, hold that nothing we do has any impact on our salvation. I don't think this is biblical. I think the chosen are those who follow God's will.

Here are some relevant passages:

Matthew 7
21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."


John 15
10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

Matthew 6:14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

- James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."


The grand finale!

Matthew 25

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

 

[lamblion]

I believe that God is outside of time, and I think most of those reading this do as well.

This means that all our actions are known to God, past, present and future. Our works, our faith, our seeking of his grace, etc. have already happened.

He knows us completely, but we aren't there yet. I believe that the elect are already chosen when viewed from his perspective.


The question is, based on what criteria are we chosen? The Calvinist who believe unconditional election is true hold that nothing we do has any impact on our salvation. I don't think this is biblical. I think the chosen are those who follow God's will.

Here are some relevant passages:

Matthew 7
21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."


John 15
10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

Matthew 6:14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

- James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."


The grand finale!

Matthew 25

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Are you concluding that our predestined life is determined by our works through life? If this is not what you are saying then please forgive me, but I would like to understand what you are getting at.

 

[chestertonrules]

Are you concluding that our predestined life is determined by our works through life? If this is not what you are saying then please forgive me, but I would like to understand what you are getting at.

Yes, I am, but with this caveat.

I don't believe that we can do it on our own.

We need the grace of God. However, if we seek this grace, and follow his will to the best of our ability, the sacrifice of Jesus will atone for our shortcomings.

We must cooperate with God's grace.

 

[lamblion]

Yes, I am, but with this caveat.

I don't believe that we can do it on our own.

We need the grace of God. However, if we seek this grace, and follow his will to the best of our ability, the sacrifice of Jesus will atone for our shortcomings.

We must cooperate with God's grace.

You are aware that you are in essence concluding that the Death of Christ and the work of God needs our human efforts and insignificant works to enable the salvation that ultimately comes from grace.

It is either from Grace or it is from works, but it can't be from both.

"For if by works then their is no more grace and if it be by grace then there is no more works"

 

[lamblion]

Matthew-25, is speaking to those that will come out of the Great Tribulation.

 

[chestertonrules]

You are aware that you are in essence concluding that the Death of Christ and the work of God needs our human efforts and insignificant works to enable the salvation that ultimately comes from grace.

It is either from Grace or it is from works, but it can't be from both.

"For if by works then their is no more grace and if it be by grace then there is no more works"

I believe all the bible.

I believe that we can't be saved without the grace of Jesus, but that he has given us explicit instructions regarding how we should access and utilize this free gift.

If what we do doesn't matter, than all men will be saved.(I hope this is true, but I don't see it scripturally)

 

[chestertonrules]

Matthew-25, is speaking to those that will come out of the Great Tribulation.

How do you know?

and...

Why does that matter?

 

[lamblion]

I believe all the bible.

I believe that we can't be saved without the grace of Jesus, but that he has given us explicit instructions regarding how we should access and utilize this free gift.

If what we do doesn't matter, than all men will be saved.(I hope this is true, but I don't see it scripturally)

The only explicit instruction that is needed to access the gift of grace is to "believe in the Lord Jesus and thou shalt be saved". To say that any thing else is needed is to add to the work of the cross.

Remember, Before Jesus gave up the gost on the cross He said "It is
finished"

The only sin any man will be judged by, in this age, is unbelief in the sacrifice of the Son (John-16:9)

This is not to say that we can just live anyway we want(Romans-6) or to say that all men will be saved, but it is to say that every man that does believe in the gospel and on the Lord Jesus will have His life examined and tested on that great day of the Lord (1Corinthians -3:13-15)

 

[lamblion]

How do you know?

and...

Why does that matter?

Those that accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior will not go through the Great Tribulation

 

[chestertonrules]

The only explicit instruction that is needed to access the gift of grace is to "believe in the Lord Jesus and thou shalt be saved". To say that any thing else is needed is to add to the work of the cross.

Then you disagree with the bible:

Matthew 7
21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."


John 15
10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

Matthew 6:14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

- James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."

 

[PrincetonGuy]

You are aware that you are in essence concluding that the Death of Christ and the work of God needs our human efforts and insignificant works to enable the salvation that ultimately comes from grace.

It is either from Grace or it is from works, but it can't be from both.

"For if by works then their is no more grace and if it be by grace then there is no more works"

The grace of God is the dynamic of God by and through which He saves us from Sin and its consequences through faith. An integral part of that faith is our volitional obedience to Christ, including the performance of the works that he commands us to perform. Let’s not forget that when Paul writes of ‘works’ he is NEVER writing of the works that Christ commands us to perform, but he is ALWAYS writing of the works of the Law.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Those that accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior will not go through the Great Tribulation

The Bible says,

2 Thes. 2:1. Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2. that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
3. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
4. who opposes and exalts himself above every so- called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
5. Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? (NASB, 1995)

Will those who accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior go through the tribulation if it occurs in their life time? Of course they will. The Bible says so and I believe it and so did all Christians till 1830.

The pre-tribulation rapture theory is so ridiculous than it is nearly universally absent from all academic studies of the Gospels, Paul’s letters to the Thessalonians and The Revelation. The scholars don’t believe it and they don’t think that it makes enough sense to bother to refute it; therefore they simply ignore it as nonsense. The really sad things about the doctrine, however, is that it teaches Christians, contrary to what the Bible teaches, that they need not prepare for the Great Tribulation, and that it throws into confusion New Testament texts regarding the saints, the elect, the Church, the judgment, and a whole host of others Biblical subjects.

 

[Bible2]

chesterton rules posted in message #1:

The Meaning of Predestination to this Non Calvinist

We should all be non-Calvinists in the sense that we
shouldn't say we are of this person or that person:

1 Corinthians 1:12 ... every one of you saith, I am
of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas ...

chesterton rules posted in message #1:

I believe that God is outside of time, and I think
most of those reading this do as well.

God isn't outside of time in the sense that there is
time even in heaven where God sits on His throne:

Revelation 8:1 ...there was silence in heaven about
the space of half an hour.
2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God ...

God is outside of time in the sense that the space-time
continuum of this universe was created by God:

John 1:3 ...All things were made by him ...

chesterton rules posted in message #1:

This means that all our actions are known to God,
past, present and future. Our works, our faith, our
seeking of his grace, etc. have already happened.

God predestined people to be either vessels of His
mercy or vessels of His wrath before they had done
anything:

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born,
neither having done any good or evil, that the
purpose of God according to election might stand, not
of works, but of him that calleth)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the
younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau
have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness
with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I
will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I
will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him
that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for
this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might
shew my power in thee, and that my name might be
declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have
mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find
fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against
God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed
it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the
same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another
unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to
make his power known, endured with much longsuffering
the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his
glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore
prepared unto glory ...

chesterton rules posted in message #1:

He knows us completely, but we aren't there yet. I
believe that the elect are already chosen when viewed
from his perspective.

The elect were chosen to be vessels of God's mercy
before the foundation of the world:

Ephesians 1:3 - Blessed be the God and Father of our
Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all
spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the
foundation of the world, that we should be holy and
without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of
children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to
the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace ...

Some people were ordained "of old" to condemnation:

Jude 1:4 ... who were before of old ordained to this
condemnation ...

Some people were appointed to disobedience:

1 Peter 2:8 ... being disobedient: whereunto also they
were appointed.

God's foreknowledge is "determinate":

Acts 2:23 ... the determinate counsel and
foreknowledge of God ...

So if God knows all of our actions beforehand, this
is because He has already determined what they will
be. He will even harden some people so that they
will not repent from evil actions:

Romans 9:18 ...Therefore hath he mercy on whom he
will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet
find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest
against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that
formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the
same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another
unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to
make his power known, endured with much longsuffering
the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction ...

At the same time, we can never blame God for any of
our evil actions; they are always committed out of
our own free will:

James 1:13 - Let no man say when he is tempted, I am
tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil,
neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away
of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth
sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth
death.

We are never corrupted by anything outside of
ourselves; all our corruption arises solely from
within our own hearts:

Mark 7:18 ... whatsoever thing from without entereth
into the man, it cannot defile him ...

Mark 7:20 - That which cometh out of the man, that
defileth the man.
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed
evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit,
lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride,
foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and
defile the man.

But how can this be? How can we still have free will
and be blamed for our evil actions if all of our
actions are already predetermined by God?

In this way: Imagine a bunch of strings laid out in
rows on a table, each one representing one possible
sequence of free-willed events. God chose to bring
into actual existence that single string, that
single sequence of free-willed events, that would give
Him the best opportunity to reveal both His wrath and
His mercy:

Romans 9:22 ... What if God, willing to shew his wrath,
and to make his power known, endured with much
longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to
destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his
glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore
prepared unto glory ...

chesterton rules posted in message #1:

The question is, based on what criteria are we
chosen? The Calvinist who believe unconditional
election is true hold that nothing we do has any
impact on our salvation. I don't think this is
biblical. I think the chosen are those who follow
God's will.

This is confusing two different ideas. Putting aside
all "Calvinist" labels and focusing instead solely on
the Bible itself, we find that the sole criteria on
which people are chosen to salvation is God's will:

John 1:13 ... nor of the will of man, but of God.

Romans 9:11 ...(For the children being not yet born,
neither having done any good or evil, that the
purpose of God according to election might stand,
not of works, but of him that calleth ...) ...

Romans 9:16 ...So then it is not of him that willeth,
nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth
mercy.

So it is God alone who decides whom He will show mercy
to, not based on anything that they've done:

Titus 3:5 ...Not by works of righteousness which we
have done, but according to his mercy he saved us ...

But, at the same time, this mercy is not
unconditional in the sense that once we are chosen
to be shown mercy, we can subsequently forfeit that
mercy by willfully continuing in sin:

Hebrews 10:26 ...For if we sin wilfully after that we
have received the knowledge of the truth, there
remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment
and fiery indignation, which shall devour the
adversaries.
28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy
under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall
he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot
the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the
covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy
thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of
grace?

chesterton rules posted in message #1:

Here are some relevant passages:

Matthew 7
21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will
enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the
will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man
according to his works: to those who by patience
in well-doing seek for glory and honor and
immortality, He will give eternal life."

John 15
10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my
love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and
remain in his love.

Matthew 6:14 "For if you forgive men their
trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive
you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses,
neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

- James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by
works, and not by faith alone."

The grand finale!

Matthew 25

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all
the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in
heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered
before him, and he will separate the people one from
another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the
goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the
goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right,
'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your
inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the
creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave
me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me
something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited
me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was
sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you
came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did
we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give
you something to drink? 38When did we see you a
stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and
clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison
and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever
you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine,
you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from
me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared
for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and
you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave
me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did
not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not
clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not
look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you
hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or
sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you
did not do for one of the least of these, you did not
do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but
the righteous to eternal life."

Such passages show that even if we are chosen by God
to be shown mercy, we still can subsequently forfeit
that mercy by not obeying God, by not doing good
works of faith and by doing evil works without
repentance.

In other words, the Bible shows that we can lose our
salvation, that there is no such thing as "once saved
always saved".

Romans 11:20 ... thou standest by faith. Be not
highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take
heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of
God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee,
goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise
thou also shalt be cut off.

At the same time, we aren't the ones who decide to
come into faith in Jesus; it is God who decides whom
He will bring into faith in Jesus, and not based on
any works that they've done:

John 6:44 ...No man can come to me, except the Father
which hath sent me draw him ...

Acts 13:48 ... as many as were ordained to eternal
life believed.

Ephesians 2:8 ...For by grace are ye saved through
faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift
of God:
9 Not of works ...

John 6:65 ... Therefore said I unto you, that no man
can come unto me, except it were given unto him of
my Father.

 

[Emmy]

Dear chestertonrules. I truly appreciated your " meaning of Predestination." I wholly agree, and you have given a thorough explanation. I have always believed as you do, yet I said it in a shorter version. I always knew that God can see our Past, as well as our Future, in a flash, and He then knows what we have done, or achieved, by using our God-given Free will. Thanks again for this affirmation of my own belief. I also can understand what lamblion is saying, yet that is not all, Faith without work, to prove whom we love, is without meaning. I say this humbly and with love, shestertonrules. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[Bible2]

lamblion posted in message #4:

You are aware that you are in essence concluding
that the Death of Christ and the work of God needs
our human efforts and insignificant works to enable
the salvation that ultimately comes from grace.

It is either from Grace or it is from works, but it
can't be from both.

"For if by works then their is no more grace and if
it be by grace then there is no more works"

Romans 11:5-6 is referring to works as having nothing
to do with God's initially choosing people to receive
His grace:

Romans 11:5 ... according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works:
otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of
works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no
more work.

2 Timothy 1:9 ...Who hath saved us, and called us with
an holy calling, not according to our works, but
according to his own purpose and grace, which was
given us in Christ Jesus before the world began ...

But once we have been elected to be shown God's mercy,
we must do good works of faith if we are to be saved:

Titus 1:16 ...They profess that they know God; but in
works they deny him, being abominable, and
disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

James 2:24 ...Ye see then how that by works a man is
justified, and not by faith only.

Matthew 7:21 ...Not every one that saith unto me,
Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;
but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in
heaven.

Hebrews 5:9 ... he became the author of eternal
salvation unto all them that obey him ...

Romans 2:5 ...God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing
seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal
life ...

Philippians 2:12 ... work out your own salvation with
fear and trembling.

---

We can trample on God's grace and so lose our
salvation if we willfully continue in sin:

Hebrews 10:26 ...For if we sin wilfully after that we
have received the knowledge of the truth, there
remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and
fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy
unDer two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall
he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot
the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the
covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy
thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of
grace?

Luke 13:3 ... except ye repent, ye shall all
likewise perish.

1 Corinthians 9:27 ...But I keep under my body, and
bring it into subjection: lest that by any means,
when I have preached to others, I myself should be
a castaway.

Romans 8:13 ...For if ye live after the flesh, ye
shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify
the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Colossians 3:5 ...Mortify therefore your members
which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness,
inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and
covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on
the children of disobedience ...

 

[Bible2]

lamblion posted in message #9:

Those that accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and
Savior will not go through the Great Tribulation

Those who accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and
Savior will go through the Great Tribulation:

Revelation 13:10 ...Here is the patience and the
faith of the saints.

Revelation 14:12 ...Here is the patience of the
saints: here are they that keep the commandments of
God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me,
Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord
from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit ...

---

The rapture won't be until after the tribulation:

Matthew 24:29 ... after the tribulation ...
30 ... they shall see the Son of man coming in the
clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound
of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his
elect ...

2 Thessalonians 2:1 ... the coming of our Lord
Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto
him ...

The Antichrist will be destroyed at this coming:

2 Thessalonians 2:8 ...And then shall that Wicked be
revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit
of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness
of his coming ...

That's why we aren't to think that Jesus can come
and gather us together to Him until sometime after
the Antichrist is revealed:

2 Thessalonians 2:1 ...Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our
gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be
troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by
letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at
hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day
shall not come, except there come a falling away
first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of
perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that
is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as
God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself
that he is God.

This event is called the abomination of desolation,
which the Church will still be here to see:

Matthew 24:15 ...When ye therefore shall see the
abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the
prophet ...

Daniel 11:31 ... they shall pollute the sanctuary of
strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice,
and they shall place the abomination that maketh
desolate.

Daniel 11:36 ...And the king shall do according to
his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify
himself above every god ...

Jesus could return 1,335 days after the abomination
of desolation:

Daniel 12:11 ... from the time that the daily
sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination
that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a
thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the
thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Revelation 16:15 ...Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed
is he that watcheth ...

Note that Revelation 16:15 is addressing those in the
Church who will still be on the earth during the vials
of wrath. The Church won't be appointed to that wrath
because it will have gone into protective chambers
on the earth which it will have built for itself:

Isaiah 26:20 ...Come, my people, enter thou into thy
chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself
as it were for a little moment, until the indignation
be overpast.

So the tribulation will be like when Noah remained on
the earth and went into the ark which he built for
himself and shut the door to keep himself and his
family protected from God's wrath of the flood.

Just as Noah remained on the earth during the flood
and was protected from God's wrath, so the Church
will remain on the earth during the tribulation and
be protected from God's wrath.

What the Church won't be protected from will be the
wrath of the devil and the Antichrist and evil
people:

Matthew 24:9 ...Then shall they deliver you up to be
afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated
of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray
one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall
deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of
many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same
shall be saved.

Revelation 12:17 ...And the dragon was wroth with the
woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her
seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have
the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 13:7 ...And it was given unto him to make
war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power
was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and
nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship
him, whose names are not written in the book of
life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the
world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into
captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be
killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the
faith of the saints.

---

This will be nothing new, for the early Church
suffered grievously at the hands of the devil, and
the Roman emperors, and evil people:

Revelation 2:10 ...Fear none of those things which
thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast
some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and
ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful
unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the
Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh
shall not be hurt of the second death.

---

We mustn't think that God has promised us that He'll
rapture us away into heaven before the terrible
suffering of the tribulation, for then, when that
suffering comes, we could be "offended" that God
would let us suffer, and turn against God:

Matthew 13:20 ... he that received the seed into
stony places, the same is he that heareth the word,
and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for
a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth
because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Isaiah 8:21 ...And they shall pass through it, hardly
bestead and hungry: and it shall come to pass, that
when they shall be hungry, they shall fret
themselves, and curse their king and their God, and
look upward.
22 And they shall look unto the earth; and behold
trouble and darkness, dimness of anguish; and they
shall be driven to darkness.

---

Instead, we must prepare ourselves to face the coming
suffering with patience and faith:

1 Peter 4:12 ...Beloved, think it not strange
concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as
though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of
Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be
revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

1 Peter 1:13 ...Wherefore gird up the loins of your
mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace
that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of
Jesus Christ ...

Revelation 13:10 ...Here is the patience and the
faith of the saints.

Revelation 14:12 ...Here is the patience of the
saints: here are they that keep the commandments of
God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me,
Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord
from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit ...

 

[MamaZ]

so if we are saved from Gods wrath then May I ask why some believe that we will go through Gods wrath?

 

[Bible2]

MamaZ posted in message #17:

so if we are saved from Gods wrath then May I ask why
some believe that we will go through Gods wrath?

No one who has obtained salvation is appointed to
God's wrath:

1 Thessalonians 5:9 ...For God hath not appointed us
to wrath, but to obtain salvation ...

So all of us who have obtained salvation who will go
through the tribulation won't be appointed to God's
wrath.

Nothing requires that any of "the seven seals" which
are the first stage of the tribulation (Revelation 6)
will be God's wrath.

The martyrs who are referred to as being killed in
the fifth seal (Revelation 6:11b) won't be killed by
God's wrath, but by the wrath of evil men:

Revelation 6:9 ...And when he had opened the fifth
seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that
were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony
which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How
long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and
avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of
them; and it was said unto them, that they should
rest yet for a little season, until their
fellowservants also and their brethren, that should
be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Matthew 24:9 ...Then shall they deliver you up to be
afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated
of all nations for my name's sake.

Those who refer to the sixth seal as being God's
wrath (Revelation 6:17) could be just as mistaken as
Job was when he thought that the suffering he was
experiencing was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11),
when it wasn't God's wrath; it was the devil's wrath
against him.

The second stage of the tribulation will be "the
seven trumpets". Nothing requires that any of the
seven trumpets (Revelation chapters 8-9) will be
God's wrath.

So the Church can go through all of the seven seals
and the seven trumpets of the tribulation without
being appointed to God's wrath.

The reign of the Antichrist and his killing of the
Church during the latter half of the tribulation
won't be God's wrath, but the devil's wrath against
the Church:

Revelation 12:17 ...And the dragon was wroth with
the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of
her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and
have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 13:7 ...And it was given unto him to make
war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power
was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and
nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship
him, whose names are not written in the book of life
of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into
captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be
killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the
faith of the saints.

Revelation 14:12 ...Here is the patience of the
saints: here are they that keep the commandments of
God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me,
Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord
from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit ...

The killing of the Church during the tribulation at
the hands of the devil, the Antichrist, and evil men,
will be like the killing of the early Church during
the first century at the hands of the devil, the
Roman Emperors, and evil men:

Revelation 2:10 ...Fear none of those things which
thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some
of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye
shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful
unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit
saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not
be hurt of the second death.

When the 42-month reign of the Antichrist is over
(Revelation 13:5b), it will be the time for the final
stage of the tribulation, "the seven vials" of God's
wrath.

Nothing requires that any of the seven vials of God's
wrath (Revelation 16) will be directed against the
Church. After the sixth vial, the Church is even
encouraged to hang on just a little longer until
Jesus' coming as a thief:

Revelation 16:15 ...Behold, I come as a thief.
Blessed is he that watcheth ...

For Jesus' coming to gather together the Church won't
be until after the seven vials, after the tribulation
is over:

Matthew 24:29 ...Immediately after the tribulation ...
30 ... they shall see the Son of man coming in the
clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound
of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his
elect ...

2 Thessalonians 2:1 ...the coming of our Lord Jesus
Christ, and by our gathering together unto him ...

1 Thessalonians 4:16 ...For the Lord himself shall
descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of
the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the
dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be
caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet
the Lord in the air ...

So the rapture is to meet Jesus in the air on His
way down to the earth at His second coming. Once the
Church has been gathered together to Jesus in the
clouds, it will be judged (Psalms 50:4-5, cf. Mark
13:27) and married (Revelation 19:7) in the clouds
before mounting white horses and following Jesus back
down from the sky (the first heaven) to the earth to
reign with Him on the earth during the millennium
(Revelation 19:14-20:6, 5:10, 2:26-29).

So the rapture won't take the Church into the third
heaven, nor will the rapture be before the
tribulation. The Bible doesn't teach either of those
things. Those ideas were invented by men who were
afraid of going through the tribulation.

But there is no need for us to hold onto the false
hope of a pre-tribulation rapture out of fear of
going through the tribulation, for even if we die in
the tribulation that will be no loss for us, but even
gain, for our death will bring our spirits into
heaven to be with Jesus:

Philippians 1:21 ... to live is Christ, and to die is
gain ...
23 ... having a desire to depart, and to be with
Christ; which is far better ...

Revelation 14:13 ...And I heard a voice from heaven
saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which
die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the
Spirit ...

So we can face the coming tribulation without fear,
just as the early Church faced its tribulation without
fear (Revelation 2:10-11).

 

[chestertonrules]

Dear chestertonrules. I truly appreciated your " meaning of Predestination." I wholly agree, and you have given a thorough explanation. I have always believed as you do, yet I said it in a shorter version. I always knew that God can see our Past, as well as our Future, in a flash, and He then knows what we have done, or achieved, by using our God-given Free will. Thanks again for this affirmation of my own belief. I also can understand what lamblion is saying, yet that is not all, Faith without work, to prove whom we love, is without meaning. I say this humbly and with love, shestertonrules. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

Thank you!

 

[MamaZ]

So all of us who have obtained salvation who will go
through the tribulation won't be appointed to God's
wrath.

Those of us that are Christs are not going to go through the great tribulation. For we are not subject to God wrath. The seven seals are indeed the pouring out of Gods wrath for the citizens of earth. But that needs to be taken to a different forum..