The Meaning of "FOREKNEW" in Romans 8:29

[Drotar]

Ain't that the truth, Colossians?

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth


nice verse

 

[rnmomof7]

Frumanchu;
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Take a close look at this verse who do you think is the "first born among many". Do you think that all men are being referred to here?.
We both know it's Jesus who is the first born among many. He was predestinated to be.

Roman a reading in context shows indeed it was about the saved.
Read it

**
*
Rom 8:28**
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.

**
*
Rom 8:29**
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

**
*
Rom 8:30**
Moreover whom he did predestinate,them he also called:and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


The whom here is not a personal pronoun

I don't believe that men are predestined as Calvinist claim. How ever predestination does exsist for the purposes of God.I believe that the man who provided the colt of an *** for Christ to ride in to Jerusalem was predestined to do so. I also believe that Judas was predestined to treason our savior. I believe that all the disciples were predestined to be so. This still is not all men who come to Christ.

Do you know the impact of your life on eternity? I had heard a story about a man in the late 1800's being led to Christ. He was led by a shoemaker . That man led a young man to the Lord that went on to get a degree in theology and become a professor of theology..he led another young man that also went on to teach, that man led Billy Graham to the Lord.

Was Billy Graham predestined?

Where do you draw the line? Were johns parents predestined? Marys parents? Peters parents? For if these people were predestined they need be predestined from time to bring them to participate in the Lords plans

RB You have no idea what influence you may have on the Kingdom

I'm sorry you think I missed the point of your post. Aren't you the one who posted it?and if so then you are saying that this is what you believe.I simply disagree.
I've been classified as an Arminian and I do not believe as you claim./
I believe in election just not unconditional.I believe in atonement just not limited. I believe in grace just not irresistible. I do not believe in depraviaty and I do not believe in OSAS. I do not believe man is regenerated then made to believe and repent. I do not believe that Calvinism is supported in scripture I believe it is a lie and heresy
In Christ;
Romanbear

I would really like the teachings on free will in the bible.

I would like the scripture that says man is born again first and regenerated next

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Roman a reading in context shows indeed it was about the saved.
Read it

**
*
Rom 8:28**
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.

**
*
Rom 8:29**
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

**
*
Rom 8:30**
Moreover whom he did predestinate,them he also called:and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


The whom here is not a personal pronoun



Do you know the impact of your life on eternity? I had heard a story about a man in the late 1800's being led to Christ. He was led by a shoemaker . That man led a young man to the Lord that went on to get a degree in theology and become a professor of theology..he led another young man that also went on to teach, that man led Billy Graham to the Lord.

Was Billy Graham predestined?

Where do you draw the line? Were johns parents predestined? Marys parents? Peters parents? For if these people were predestined they need be predestined from time to bring them to participate in the Lords plans

Eph 1:4
According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.

RB You have no idea what influence you may have on the Kingdom



I would really like the teachings on free will in the bible.

Like in Jonah is my favorite then add in Eph 2:10 is good example of this..

God makes obiedience happen by making Jonah willing to do God's will even though Jonah did not want to do it.

like the scripture that says man is born again first and regenerated next

 

[Colossians]

Roman Bear

What is the point of talking theology if you're going to stick your fingers in your ears in the name of cheek turning?

If your ideas are right, what do you have to fear?
If your ideas are wrong, what do you have to fear except becoming right?

You waste people's time by debating with them long term, and then simply putting them on ignore when you begin to lose.
You also are not honest with your self in so doing.

 

[Colossians]

John the Baptist was born again before he left the womb - born again before he was born.

And no wonder, for do not the scriptures say "And it shall come to pass that before they call I will answer"?

 

[Drotar]

Whoa, wait. I might have a problem with that.

Are you saying that John the Baptist was regenerated before he was born?

 

[Philip]

Whoa, wait. I might have a problem with that.

Are you saying that John the Baptist was regenerated before he was born?

Why else would he jump for joy at the presence of his Savior?

 

[Colossians]

Was there any other inference?

 

[Drotar]

Wha...?

I've been 5 point Calvinist a while but I've never heard of that.

Exactly how is this possible? Are you saying he was regenerated YEARS prior to him consciously having the ability to accept Christ?

What do you mean, jump for joy? He was jumping for joy in the womb?

Well, perhaps it was common grace. What you're saying, essentially if you think about it, is that John the Baptist was born without original sin. TTYL Jesus loves you!

 

[Drotar]

I've only heard dispensationalists say stuff like that.

I am one, but I reject the dispensational view of soteriology. People like Chafer said that it was possible to be regenerated years prior, meanwhile living in an intermediate state.

But Sproul refuted that... I'm confused.

 

[Colossians]

Drotar,

Please consider thoughtfully.

John the Baptist kicked for joy in Elizabeth's womb when she approached Mary. Therefore he was already born again, and partaking of supernatural revelation. This is inescapable.

Try to understand that conventional Calvinism enshrined by the Calvinistic churches (and I am an uncompromising 5-pointer) is often an intellectual summation based on logic. This is why many 'Calvinistic' churches have very 'dead' congregations.

The things of the Spirit are of an infinite dynamic. They transcend what is often called 'systematic theology', for God says "my ways are higher than yours" and "past finding out". God does not work in neat logical compartments (which is not to say we throw out logic), but by the Holy Spirit.

Just as a non-believer would say "how can a virgin give birth" or "how can you living now be crucified with Christ 2000 yrs ago", in similar fashion believers who base their doctrine solely on systematics, often can miss the greater dynamic of the Spirit, the miraculous, even though they themselves have partaken of the miraculous in the receiving of a personal relationship with the Spirit of Christ.
Never never forget the miraculous aspect of salvation in your seeking to systematize the things of predestination. If God desires it to be so, the rocks will indeed praise Him. The whole bible is in fact an account of miracles.


The following requires some slooooow, deeeeeep thinking:
From the technical aspect (which will be the thing that is throwing you at present), you must remember that being born again is a property of the spirit, not the flesh. This is very important, for the spirit realm is primarily outside of time (which is why it can be declared that we are seated now in heavenly places). When one is born again, it is because God has at that point in time chosen to reconcile the manifestation of the spirit inside of time with that which is primary: its outside of time state (in which it is saved eternally, and never not saved).
Whether he reconciles the two aspects in the womb, or the more usual later stage after the womb, is up to Him.

The scripture concerning JBs kick for joy is given to us to show God's awesome power which transcends time, and which is predeterminate in every respect; to show that it is by the will of God alone that man is saved.

 

[Received]

Haldane, comparing Scripture with Scripture, clearly shows that the foreknowledge mentioned in Romans 8:29 cannot have
reference to the foreseen faith, good works, or the sinner’s response to God’s call. “Faith cannot be the cause of foreknowledge, because foreknowledge is before predestination, and faith is the effect of predestination. ‘As many as were ordained to eternal life believed,’ Acts 13:48.*

Indeed, but this does not rule out a person's capacity for faith. Such can be the basis for God's predestination. Of course, this does not imply a formula. There are many who are not saved who very well have the capacity to be saved. This does not imply that God hates them; God is love (1 John 4:8). All this implies is that there is some unknown purpose, driven by the compassion of God, to save these people. Of course, this would imply, for many, post-mortem salvation. Disagreement with this is another thread. But in retrospect of our own lives, we know we could have very well been saved at a much earlier age. Does our not being saved at the moment, assuming God loves only us, imply that God does not love us? Hardly.

"Neither can it be meant of the foreknowledge of good works, because these are the effects of predestination. ‘We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works; which God hath before ordained (or before prepared) that we should walk in them;’ Eph. 2:10."

Good works here being accordance with the goodness of the call to Christ, and not works that are otherwise good in themselves. To hold this scriptural interpretation is to claim that absolutely nothing is good in itself, and thus man, in view of this goodness, is not capable of committing such to his will and emitting a good act. Even depraved men are capable of natural loves; and it is, according to Lewis, precisely these natural loves that can pave the way for the divine love -- agapas. Even the fallen are capable of expressing justice, which is the measurement by which God Himself directs His punishment and reward. And then you have the entire realm of aesthetics, all of which man is drawn to and finds psychological edification in; such is good in itself. The 'effects of predestination' in question here is not a question of the complete sanctification of works; but of expressing good works completely, devoid of any imperfection, in complete knowledge of the ultimate purpose of existence. I am not advocating that a great deal of works admitted by the unsaved are good; for sin is sin regardless of conscientiousness of it. I am advocating, however, that the wicked are precisely those men who know the correct thing to do and refuse it. How sin relates to our will is what is important here; not the psychological sinfulness that is congenital to all men, for men cannot help this. Fundamentally, it is not a question of good and bad; but of evil and innocence, or the capacity to be saved and the capacity not to be saved. "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God." (John 3:20,21). Of course, many a Calvinist will object to this as claimed support for men being able to respond to the gospel in their own power. But Jesus states that those who practice the truth come to the light; they are not already in it. "Does that not give grounds that God has sanctified their acts so that they could come to conversion?" Nay, for sanctification of acts is precisely what conversion encompasses. Examples of this are found all throughout scripture. Men are seen to be naturally drawn to the wonder and beauty of Jesus. Some, such as the Pharisees, are not, for they blaspheme the spirit they know to be true (Luke 12:10). You might even argue that the reason such persons were not predestined is because of their works -- their work in intentionally denying the truth -- and not the converse of this rule.

"Neither can it be meant of foreknowledge of our concurrence with the external call, because our effectual calling depends not upon that concurrence, but upon God’s purpose and grace, given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 2 Tim. 1:9. "

But this does not negate the possibility of God's purpose being precisely our response to the external call. The idea of our salvation not being according to our works, as Paul states, is precisely that: our spiritual character prior to our salvation is not grounds for our salvation. The capcity for response, however, is a different story. Such is not work, but grounds for possible work; namely, the work of God. If our effectual calling did not depend at all on our external call, then men are not to be accountable for denying the gospel. Paul warned sinful men for refusing repentance (Romans 2:5); Jesus, likewise, mourned over unrepentant nations (Matthew 11:20-24). An ought implies a can. But if the can is capable only through divine allowance, it is hardly a can without it; and to blame men for doing something they could not help but do is injustice.

"By this foreknowledge, then, is meant, as has been observed, the love of God towards those whom he predestinates to be saved through Jesus Christ. All the called of God are foreknown by Him, - that is, they are the objects of His eternal love, and their calling comes from this free love. ‘I have loved thee with an everlasting love; therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn thee,’ Jer. 31:3.” 4

Murray, in rejecting the view that “foreknew” in Romans 8:29 refers to the foresight of faith, is certainly correct in stating that “It needs to be emphasized that the rejection of this interpretation is not dictated by a predestinarian interest. Even if it were granted that ‘foreknew’ means foresight of faith, the biblical doctrine of sovereign election is not thereby eliminated or disproven. For it is certainly true that God foresees faith;* he foresees all that comes to pass.* The question would then simply be: whence proceeds this faith which God foresees? And the only biblical answer is that the faith which God foresees is the faith he himself creates (cf. John 3:3-8; 6:44;45,65; Eph. 2:8; Phil. 1:29; II Pet. 1:2). Hence his eternal foresight of faith is preconditioned by his decree to generate this faith in those whom he foresees as believing, and we are thrown back upon the differentiation which proceeds from God’s own eternal and sovereign election to faith and its consequents. The interest, therefore, is simply one of interpretation as it should be applied to this passage.* On exegetical grounds we shall have to reject the view that ‘foreknew’ refers to the foresight of faith.”

But this poses a rather difficult problem. If God loves only those He chooses to love, and forces men into existence with the knowledge that they are not merely imperfect, but bent on imperfection, His denial to save such is arrant diabolism. In effect, He hates men into existence; and therefore God is hardly just. Yes, Adam sinned, and, yes, God consciously chose to continue in the creation of mankind knowing that whatever comes of imperfection is imperfection. But scripture states that He had a higher purpose, "for God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all." (Romans 11:32) I am tired of the religious response that God does owe it to anyone to be saved. Love itself is nowhere within the realm of desert. I do not deserve the love of God; nor do I deserve the slightest hint of benevolence from the lightest of my many acquiantances. Love is not love in the case of debt; indeed,

"Love's not love
When it is mingled with regards that stand
Aloof from th' entire point."
-- King Lear, 1.1.240-42

Action without good intention is evil action. For God to create mankind without the intention of loving them, and thereby holding them to an eternal hell for an existence they could not refute, is ludicrous.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Drotar,

The following requires some slooooow, deeeeeep thinking:
From the technical aspect (which will be the thing that is throwing you at present), you must remember that being born again is a property of the spirit, not the flesh. This is very important, for the spirit realm is primarily outside of time (which is why it can be declared that we are seated now in heavenly places). When one is born again, it is because God has at that point in time chosen to reconcile the manifestation of the spirit inside of time with that which is primary: its outside of time state (in which it is saved eternally, and never not saved).
Whether he reconciles the two aspects in the womb, or the more usual later stage after the womb, is up to Him.

The scripture concerning JBs kick for joy is given to us to show God's awesome power which transcends time, and which is predeterminate in every respect; to show that it is by the will of God alone that man is saved.

POSTIONAL TRUTH IS AWESOME BUT I DO NOT THINK MANY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN TAUGHT THIS AWESOME THING WE HAVE IN CHRIST

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

..........JOB 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundation of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

READ JOB 38 AS A WHOLE as God answers Job of why things had happen to him and questioning God character

 

[Received]

You are begging the question, assuming that the very doctine I recently critiqued is true before you assert your claims on this position.

Job begged God for understanding on behalf of the unknown. I am stating what appears to me as an obvious contradiction to goodness. The limitations of logic are clearly seen here; there were not with Job.

If questioning doctrine is a sin, blame Aquinas, Luther, Calvin, Arminius, and every other deeply concerned follower of Christ for doing the very thing that I am following.

Blessings.

 

[rnmomof7]

Wha...?

I've been 5 point Calvinist a while but I've never heard of that.

Exactly how is this possible? Are you saying he was regenerated YEARS prior to him consciously having the ability to accept Christ?

With God all things are possible.


Why would that be impossible?

Regeneration is an act of God that is not dependent on the age or ability of the man


Consider the name his father was told to give him
John', meaning 'the one on whom the Lord has taken mercy. There is no record where it was necessary for Jesus to reveal who He was to John. John knew

What do you mean, jump for joy? He was jumping for joy in the womb?

Well, perhaps it was common grace. What you're saying, essentially if you think about it, is that John the Baptist was born without original sin. TTYL Jesus loves you!

Regeneration means to be brought back to life, which gives you the ability to see the kingdom of God , then to repent and believe .
*
Mat 3:11**
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

**
*
Mat 3:12**
Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

**
*
Mat 3:13**
Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

**
*
Mat 3:14**
But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

 

[rnmomof7]

Drotar,

Please consider thoughtfully.

John the Baptist kicked for joy in Elizabeth's womb when she approached Mary. Therefore he was already born again, and partaking of supernatural revelation. This is inescapable.

Try to understand that conventional Calvinism enshrined by the Calvinistic churches (and I am an uncompromising 5-pointer) is often an intellectual summation based on logic. This is why many 'Calvinistic' churches have very 'dead' congregations.

The things of the Spirit are of an infinite dynamic. They transcend what is often called 'systematic theology', for God says "my ways are higher than yours" and "past finding out". God does not work in neat logical compartments (which is not to say we throw out logic), but by the Holy Spirit.

Just as a non-believer would say "how can a virgin give birth" or "how can you living now be crucified with Christ 2000 yrs ago", in similar fashion believers who base their doctrine solely on systematics, often can miss the greater dynamic of the Spirit, the miraculous, even though they themselves have partaken of the miraculous in the receiving of a personal relationship with the Spirit of Christ.
Never never forget the miraculous aspect of salvation in your seeking to systematize the things of predestination. If God desires it to be so, the rocks will indeed praise Him. The whole bible is in fact an account of miracles.


The following requires some slooooow, deeeeeep thinking:
From the technical aspect (which will be the thing that is throwing you at present), you must remember that being born again is a property of the spirit, not the flesh. This is very important, for the spirit realm is primarily outside of time (which is why it can be declared that we are seated now in heavenly places). When one is born again, it is because God has at that point in time chosen to reconcile the manifestation of the spirit inside of time with that which is primary: its outside of time state (in which it is saved eternally, and never not saved).
Whether he reconciles the two aspects in the womb, or the more usual later stage after the womb, is up to Him.

The scripture concerning JBs kick for joy is given to us to show God's awesome power which transcends time, and which is predeterminate in every respect; to show that it is by the will of God alone that man is saved.

Great answer

 

[Drotar]

Hmm... I'm going to apologize ahead of time and ask that I be given some time to think about this. I didn't just accept limited atonement overnight either y'know.

Of course, it is always possible, but... I don't know. I don't know how a baby that's not even born yet can COMPREHEND that Jesus was 5 feet from him. How did He know who Jesus was? If seems to me that that jump couldn't have been conscious or voluntary. John the Baptist before he was born didn't even know who Jesus was. That act must have been led by the Spirit. Period. But to say that he jumped for joy because he was regenerated implies that baby John the Baptist knew the Christ before physically possible. We're talking about MORE than regeneration here.

Now, is it perhaps that the Spirit merely moved through his body to give a sign to Mary and Elizabeth? TTYL Jesus loves you!

 

[rnmomof7]

Hmm... I'm going to apologize ahead of time and ask that I be given some time to think about this. I didn't just accept limited atonement overnight either y'know.

Of course, it is always possible, but... I don't know. I don't know how a baby that's not even born yet can COMPREHEND that Jesus was 5 feet from him. How did He know who Jesus was? If seems to me that that jump couldn't have been conscious or voluntary. John the Baptist before he was born didn't even know who Jesus was. That act must have been led by the Spirit. Period. But to say that he jumped for joy because he was regenerated implies that baby John the Baptist knew the Christ before physically possible. We're talking about MORE than regeneration here.

Do you find in the NT any record of Jesus calling John to repent and believe?

Man has nothing to do with his regeneration..to assume that John had to do a specific thing, or know a specific thing makes regeneration a work of man not of God . Election is from before the foundation of the world . The regeneration is dependent on Gods time and His ordained plan.

John fulfilled a prophecy of the OT . Remember the words of Jesus no man can see the kingdom of God unless he is born from above. John knew the presence of jesus. He leapt for Joy at His presence..

The most important thing to remember is regeneration is a complete act of God. There is no work we can do to "earn " it .

Now, is it perhaps that the Spirit merely moved through his body to give a sign to Mary and Elizabeth? TTYL Jesus loves you!

Can the Holy Spirit dwell in an unregenerate body?