The Meaning of "FOREKNEW" in Romans 8:29

[frumanchu]

Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Notice "If ye endure chastening" What do you suppose happens if you don't endure?

Take a closer look at that verse. It's not speaking about perseverance, it's speaking about our adoption as sons of God. He chastens whom He loves. Therefore, if you are enduring chastening, then you know you are being chastened by the Father as His adopted son.

The beginning of the verse isn't what you think it is. It's a conditional statement that does NOT speak to the ability or inability of an individual to 'endure chastening.'

A Rabbi would laugh you right out of the temple if you used these verses to prove total depravity. None of the five points of Calvinism have ever been part of Jewish doctrine. If you believe they have then you've been lied to. Remember the Jews had direct contact with God at the mercy seat. If depravity were total and in the same context as Calvinist make it out to be, the priest would have said so in plain language. They didn't speak in parables Christ did that. For a good reason and this is because He didn't want everyone to understand just yet, because He hadn't paid the price yet.

Umm...NO. We have much more direct access to God than the Jews did. Only the high priest was given the opportunity to approach the mercy seat, and that only once a year. But now the veil has been torn from top to bottom. BTW, I don't recall there being a whole lot of Scripture written by the high priest, nor do I recall the Jewish people being very receptive to the Truth when it was among them. Remember, the Trinity wasn't a Jewish doctrine either.

Here is some scripture from my point of view.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Why do you suppose that Christ would ask to come in your door by knocking? And why do you think we ("if this happened to us") should have to open the door which implies a decision?

Forgetting for a second that you are ripping that verse completely out of context, who hears His voice, bear...the sheep or the goats?

A decision is necessary it is not a work! No one is saved unless they in there own heart want to be. This does not effect the Sovereignty of God to give man a choice. He still has the power to judge a mans heart fairly and justly.

What you fail to understand is that unless the Lord gives a person a new heart, in their unregenerate heart they will NOT want to be saved. Man is at enmity with God...he wants nothing to do with Him. The grace of the Lord is not that He provided a means by which we COULD be saved (because in our natural state none would ever partake of it and it would stand not as an act of grace but one of further condemnation to men), but rather that He DID save men.

Now some have said that the people in this church in Laodicea were already saved, but this my friend is not true. For if they were saved then why were they told to repent, or Christ would spew them out of His mouth. Not only does this prove they weren't saved. But in the same chapter Christ speaks to the church a Philadelphia. He sets before them a door that no one can shut so they can go in and out freely. He tells them they have a little strength and have kept His commandments and have not denied Him. Clearly out of all the 7 churches only this church is given such a fine greeting from Christ.They aren't told to repent.Like the others. This proves them to be the only ones saved. If the others aren't saved They haven't been predestined... Just regular Joes like us.

Do you not repent regularly? Are you sinless? Do you not fall into temptation and sin despite being saved? Unlike salvation, sanctification is a synergistic endeavor. If you think we lose our salvation every time we sin or fail to repent, then you might as well head back to Rome.

Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Notice that if our spirit be dead we are too!

Hence the need to be born again, and yet you persist in claiming that dead men can bring themselves back to life and believe. Tell me, if God said that the day they ate of the tree they would surely die, and yet they lived beyond that day, was Satan right when he asked "hath God said.. ?" I think your understanding of spiritual death is flawed.

Faith cometh by hearing the word of God. But if you do not act on it then you are the looser. Show me your faith. I can show you mine by my works.

Agreed. God has ordained the Word as the means by which the elect are brought to faith. Clearly the Word by itself does nothing without the Spirit, or all men who heard the Word would believe.

James and Paul appear to contradict each other in the matter of faith and works, until you consider that Paul is explaining how God views our faith and James is explaining how man views our faith. Since we know not a man's heart, the only way we can see another's faith is by his works. God does not have our limitation in that regards.

Your right works can't save you. but if the Holy spirit has to regenerate you before you can believe. Then Christ is not the way the Holy spirit is.

What do you think actually ties us to Christ in His death and resurrection? It's the Spirit. It's Christ's atonement that satisfies the just requirements of God, and it's the Holy Spirit that applies that justification to us.

To be regenerated means to be saved.

Yes and no. Regeneration leads inevitably to salvation. From a practical perspective, 'regenerate' and 'saved' mean the same thing. From a theological standpoint, they are not. They have a cause and effect relationship.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This verse does not say regenerate it says DRAW Again implying we have to respond or we won't be saved. I believe in election but it is very conditional no one is saved without faith and repentance first this implies conditions

Salvation is absolutely conditional. But when you use election and salvation synonymously, you create a problem because Calvinists believe election is unconditional, NOT salvation. As with regeneration and salvation, they are two distinct things. The matter with regards to the conditions for salvation is that unregenerate man WILL NOT meet those conditions.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Christ is the way no matter what the Holy spirit does. We still have to go through Christ to obtain salvation. Even if we are fore known we still have to accept Christ as our savior...

Again agreed. The issue is NOT whether or not we have to accept Christ to be saved. The issue is who will accept Him? There is none who seeketh after Him, bear.

 

[Romanbear]

Hi Frumanchu;
Scripture upon scripture, precept upon precept.To your accusations of ripping scripture out of context. I turn the other cheek.
A quote from you;

Do you not repent regularly? Are you sinless? Do you not fall into temptation and sin despite being saved? Unlike salvation, sanctification is a synergistic endeavor. If you think we lose our salvation every time we sin or fail to repent, then you might as well head back to Rome.

My Reply;
Frumanchu this quote above seems rather rude. First of all my pin name in no way implies racial idenity. if you must know I'm a Polish Jew. not by religon or tradition but by blood. A Jew is a Jew is a Jew. And His Jewishness comes down through the mothers blood line.The spelling came about because someone else had already taken the original spelling and I didn't want a number attached to it.The original idea was roaming bear

In Answers to your questions above. No man is sinless and yes I repent daily. I believe that Paul referred to it as dying daily to sin.Even though as Paul considered that it was no longer him that sinned but the sin that dwelled in him.The thing you have over looked is that you are saying that you can be saved and loose your salvation. If those at the laodicea church can be spewed out of the mouth of Christ then they are lost or they were saved then lost...
A quote from you;

Umm...NO. We have much more direct access to God than the Jews did. Only the high priest was given the opportunity to approach the mercy seat, and that only once a year. But now the veil has been torn from top to bottom. BTW, I don't recall there being a whole lot of Scripture written by the high priest,

My Reply;
Your right they didn't write much of the Bible. I think you are forgetting Moses, although a prophet but still a levi. He let his brother do this part in stead. Although Moses was definitly eligable for the office. He wrote the first five books. Besides I wouldn't bragg and say you have anything over the Jews. Just as they were cut out so can you be grafted in. You can still be cut out for bragging. To say other wise, deny's the power of God. What you fail to understand is that the mercy seat also allowed presents physcially.In other words a physcial one on one conversation.Much deeper than prayer.
A quote from you;

What you fail to understand is that unless the Lord gives a person a new heart, in their unregenerate heart they will NOT want to be saved.

My Reply;
You still show no scripture to back up your views. You can get a free Bible program at e-sword.
IMHO we are not given a new heart until we are saved by the blood of Christ. We cannot be regenerated untill we have Faith and we can't have faith until we believe. Being regenerated before faith is a man's theory at best it is not supported by scripture. In Fact the oppsite is true. We are saved by grace through faith. with out faith first there is no grace,and therefore no regeneration.

Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Read it again. the body is dead without the spirit.if the body is dead it's to late to worry about it.
A quote from you;

James and Paul appear to contradict each other in the matter of faith and works, until you consider that Paul is explaining how God views our faith and James is explaining how man views our faith.

There are no contradictions in scripture when you understand scripture.To one who has grown in Christ this just isn't so. James and Paul tell the same doctrine. It's the twisted view of Calvinism that you have accepted that clouds your view.
A quote from you;

What do you think actually ties us to Christ in His death and resurrection? It's the Spirit. It's Christ's atonement that satisfies the just requirements of God, and it's the Holy Spirit that applies that justification to us.
My reply;
Excuse me, it's our faith in Christ that ties us to Christ. Yes we are drawn this is election. the next step is our acceptance. Gifts are accepted not commanded.
Yes and no. Regeneration leads inevitably to salvation. From a practical perspective, 'regenerate' and 'saved' mean the same thing. From a theological standpoint, they are not. They have a cause and effect relationship.
The word "Regenration" means to be born again peroid. Your not going to try and change the meaning of a word are you. If so based on what information. "Greek". OK just go ahead and bring out that 2000 year old dictionary... and we'll define it. Oh that's right the greeks didn't have a dictionary 2000 years ago. I'd really like to see where you get your definition... Could it be someone named John Calvin. Or Augustine!
A quote from you;

Salvation is absolutely conditional. But when you use election and salvation synonymously, you create a problem because Calvinists believe election is unconditional, NOT salvation. As with regeneration and salvation, they are two distinct things. The matter with regards to the conditions for salvation is that unregenerate man WILL NOT meet those conditions.

My Reply;
Thankyou for seperating the two. Election is still conditional because we have to hear the word before we can be drawn.If we don't know about salvation or Christ how are we to know what we are drawn to.
This is a quote by Paul of a fool;

There is none who seeketh after Him, bear.

I believe I've shown it to you before This same fool also said there is no God.

A quote from you;
Again agreed. The issue is NOT whether or not we have to accept Christ to be saved. The issue is who will accept Him?

The ones who accept Him are the ones who believe. even though elected or chosen by God to hear the message we still have the decision to accept or reject...
Christ commanded the disciples to preach the gospel to every living creature, for a reason. IMHO that reason is so, that God can draw all men to Him. Being drawn is done by God through His Word, and accepting or rejecting that draw is up to man... Some consider this to be works for salvation, but think about it for a while. Even though we have to accept the offer of God's gift. He can still reject giving us that gift for several reasons, if it be His desire. He is God all mighty and because He allows things to be, doesn't mean He has lost Sovereignty.
It is still ultimatly the Lords decision to save you and I. He is not willing that any perrish.
I hope this isn't to long
In Christ;
Romanbear

 

[frumanchu]

Scripture upon scripture, precept upon precept.To your accusations of ripping scripture out of context. I turn the other cheek.

Indeed...instead of presenting the context, you instead essentially accuse me of an ad hominem attack. Sir, my issue is with your interpretation taken out of context. It was not meant as a personal attack.

Frumanchu this quote above seems rather rude. First of all my pin name in no way implies racial idenity. if you must know I'm a Polish Jew. not by religon or tradition but by blood. A Jew is a Jew is a Jew. And His Jewishness comes down through the mothers blood line.The spelling came about because someone else had already taken the original spelling and I didn't want a number attached to it.The original idea was roaming bear

My comment had nothing to do with your ethnicity. In saying you 'might as well return to Rome' I was referring to Roman Catholicism and their works-based theology. I'm sorry that you took that the wrong way and I didn't think about it in light of your screen name. Simply a misunderstanding.

Your right they didn't write much of the Bible. I think you are forgetting Moses, although a prophet but still a levi. He let his brother do this part in stead. Although Moses was definitly eligable for the office. He wrote the first five books. Besides I wouldn't bragg and say you have anything over the Jews. Just as they were cut out so can you be grafted in. You can still be cut out for bragging. To say other wise, deny's the power of God. What you fail to understand is that the mercy seat also allowed presents physcially.In other words a physcial one on one conversation.Much deeper than prayer.

I'm not saying I'm any better than the Jews. I'm pointing to a historical and Biblical fact. God's presence on the mercy seat of the Ark was His presense among His people, but they did not have unfettered and free access to Him as we do now. I seriously doubt that the high priest went into the Holy of Holies with a list of questions submitted by the people. That was not the purpose of his entrance. We indeed are more blessed than they by the fact that we can come before the Father freely.

You still show no scripture to back up your views. You can get a free Bible program at e-sword.

RB, have you forgotten all our past discussions? I quote Scripture frequently...I just did above in previous replies. So don't insult me by accusing me of just making this stuff up independantly of Scripture. I have e-Sword, Libronix and numerous other resources.

IMHO we are not given a new heart until we are saved by the blood of Christ. We cannot be regenerated untill we have Faith and we can't have faith until we believe. Being regenerated before faith is a man's theory at best it is not supported by scripture. In Fact the oppsite is true. We are saved by grace through faith. with out faith first there is no grace,and therefore no regeneration.

My friend, that does terrible violence to that verse. We are indeed saved by grace through faith. Grace is the formal cause of our salvation. Faith is the instrumental cause of our salvation. Christ's atonement is the sufficient cause of our salvation. We are saved by grace (formal cause) through faith (instrumental cause) in Christ (sufficient cause). You still haven't answered why a person would come to faith in the first place, which is the main point of contention between us. Man chooses according to his desire, and man does not desire God. So how does that change?

Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Read it again. the body is dead without the spirit.if the body is dead it's to late to worry about it.

You didn't address my point. Please explain to me what God meant by saying that the day they eat of the tree they would surely die. Additionally, notice the verse says 'the body without the spirit,' NOT the body with a dead spirit. There is a crucial difference.

There are no contradictions in scripture when you understand scripture.To one who has grown in Christ this just isn't so. James and Paul tell the same doctrine. It's the twisted view of Calvinism that you have accepted that clouds your view.

Well, my friend, your theology is full of contradictions. You're getting pretty good at attacking me rather than dealing logically and scripturally with the points I raise. I agree that there's no contradiction, but unlike you I've explained HOW the apparent contradiction is resolved. Paul says it is not of works. James says faith without it is dead. Please explain.

Excuse me, it's our faith in Christ that ties us to Christ. Yes we are drawn this is election. the next step is our acceptance. Gifts are accepted not commanded.

See above. Faith is the instrumental cause. It is the Spirit that actually allows us to participate in the death in resurrection. It is by the Spirit that the Father sees us as He sees the Son.

The word "Regenration" means to be born again peroid. Your not going to try and change the meaning of a word are you. If so based on what information. "Greek". OK just go ahead and bring out that 2000 year old dictionary... and we'll define it. Oh that's right the greeks didn't have a dictionary 2000 years ago. I'd really like to see where you get your definition... Could it be someone named John Calvin. Or Augustine!

Kindly show me where I ever said that the term regeneration means anything other than being born again. You're making false and slanderous claims against me without any foundation in fact. And you accused ME of being rude?!?

You simply assume I changed the definition because you assumed that I agree with you that one is born again after coming to faith. I don't agree at all. One is JUSTIFIED after coming to faith. Regeneration...sorry...being born again...must occur for one to come to faith in the first place.

Salvation is absolutely conditional. But when you use election and salvation synonymously, you create a problem because Calvinists believe election is unconditional, NOT salvation. As with regeneration and salvation, they are two distinct things. The matter with regards to the conditions for salvation is that unregenerate man WILL NOT meet those conditions.

Thankyou for seperating the two. Election is still conditional because we have to hear the word before we can be drawn.If we don't know about salvation or Christ how are we to know what we are drawn to.

As I said previously, the Word works in tandem with the Spirit. The only synergism involved in salvation is between the Word and the Spirit. The outward call and the inward call together produce the faith that brings salvation. Election is not conditional and I challenge you to prove scripturally otherwise.

This is a quote by Paul of a fool. I believe I've shown it to you before This same fool also said there is no God.

Again, ripped totally out of context. The preface to the extensive quote from the OT was: "For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are ALL under sin." What you fail to see in Romans is the extent to which Paul labors the point that we are all by nature at enmity with God and do not seek Him. Period. We are born in a state of rebellion which persists unto death unless we are given a new heart.

The ones who accept Him are the ones who believe. even though elected or chosen by God to hear the message we still have the decision to accept or reject...

Oh for crying out loud. Ok, who are the ones who believe then? Answer the question and tell me what leads one person to believe and another not to. I have a simple answer. What's yours?

Christ commanded the disciples to preach the gospel to every living creature, for a reason. IMHO that reason is so, that God can draw all men to Him. Being drawn is done by God through His Word, and accepting or rejecting that draw is up to man... Some consider this to be works for salvation, but think about it for a while.

And what of the people who die never having heard the Gospel? I've thought about it extensively and meditated on it thoroughly. I rejoice that ultimately the decision rested in God's hands because if it were up to me I'd be justly condemned.

Even though we have to accept the offer of God's gift. He can still reject giving us that gift for several reasons, if it be His desire. He is God all mighty and because He allows things to be, doesn't mean He has lost Sovereignty.

HAHAHA! Let me get this straight. You are in support of the notion that God can still reject us even if we do believe, but He's NOT allowed to choose whom He will to lead to belief? Tell me...what's the difference if ultimately the choice rests with God?

It is still ultimatly the Lords decision to save you and I. He is not willing that any perrish.

2 Peter 3:9...yet another misapplied verse. *SIGH*

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Not By Man's Work

Titus 3:5
Ephesians 2:8-9
Romans 4:5

I Believe It Is Faith First Like You

Question Is Were Does Man Get Faith Since According To Romans 3:10-11 That No One Seeketh Or Understandeth God.....

Clue Galation 5:22-23 Fruit Of Spirit ...wow

How Verse Make It Easy

 

[Romanbear]

Hi BretherninChrist;
Respectfully I ask you to consider this. In Romans 3:10-11 Paul is quoting scripture, because in the first verse you reference it clearly states "as it is written" Makes me think where else is this written so that Paul can say " it is written" this below is just one place where this is written. It is actually written in two places. Read it carefully and you'll see what type of person said this.

Psa 14:1 Unto the end, a psalm for David. The fool hath said in his heart: There is no God. They are corrupt, and are become abominable in their ways: there is none that doth good, no not one.

Psa 14:2 The Lord hath looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there be any that understand and seek God.

Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are become unprofitable together: there is none that doth good: no not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they acted deceitfully: the poison of asps is under their lips. Their mouth is full of cursing and bitterness; their feet are swift to shed blood. Destruction and unhappiness in their ways; and the way of peace they have not known: there is no fear of God before their eyes.

It is also stated in Paslms 53:1-3 we have to remember these are the rantings of a fool that Paul is quoting. Notice the fool say's also there is no God.

I would think that it would be obvious that there are those who seek God, both when the fool said it and when Paul quoted it. Was not Paul and the disciples seeking God. If they were then this statement is misunderstood when people use it to proclaim that No one seeks God...

If you're a Calvinist and you believe that no one seeks God. I have to ask on what basis do you believe this. It's certainly not God breathed.

"Faith comes first" I'm glad that you recognize that this is true. To know where faith comes from all you have to do is look at scripture. In Romans 10:17. Faith comes by Hearing the word of God. You see even though Calvinism says that no one can hear. They have no scripture to back up this theory. When we are drawn by God to Christ what would be the point to draw us if we couldn't hear. If we couldn't hear then we would have no faith. Hearing the word brings faith. Faith is not given in Christ before we hear it, because how can we believe if we know nothing of Christ. Faith is believing.

Regeneration is what happens when we have faith and trust in God, not the other way around. Regeneration is being saved.

I was brought up in a Christian home. We all went church no matter what. My brothers and I had no choice. I knew that there was in deed a God and that Christ was His son. How ever I was not saved until I accepted Him as my savior. I was drawn every time I heard the gospel. Especially when the sermon was about the death and resurrection of Christ. I could feel the tugging on me to confess but I was embarrassed to let the whole church know that I wasn't already saved. You see my parents were very involved in the church my father a deacon my mother taught Sunday school. Everyone assumed that I was already saved even my parents.

Then one night at the evening service the preacher was preaching about the things they put Christ through just before His crucifixion. How they whipped Him and tore flesh from His body. How they gambled for His clothing. How they cursed Him and reviled Him. How the people would rather have a criminal in there midst than our precious Lord. How the Romans made Him a crown of thorns and placed it upon His head and no doubt took a stick and shoved it down on His head so it wouldn't fall off. How they spit on Him and made fun of Him.How the people hated Him because of the truth He brought them that they couldn't accept. Truth hurts and it must have hurt these people very much, because it made them Hate Him.They wanted Him dead because they couldn't take it any longer. These learned people who believed in there minds that this couldn't be the Mesiah.What a story of perfect Love He laid down His life for the world and all we have to do is accept Him...... No one has ever Love me like He does and I came to realize that what people think isn't what is important. Christ is... Then I confessed Jesus Christ to my self and the whole church. I was crying so uncontrollably that everyone was looking at me then I realized that everyone knew that I was under conviction because it was so obvious. At this point embarrassment made no difference.I surrendered to Christ I let Him have control.....

Some have told me that I was already saved because I believed long before I confessed. But that's not true. It wasn't until I accepted Him and confessed Him.......... This is when my life started to change. It was like having a huge weight taken off me. The most wonderful experience in my life.

In Christ

Romanbear

 

[Romanbear]

Hi Frumanchu;
Obviously somehow we seem to be getting off on the wrong foot. If I've offended you I'm sorry, It is not my intention. However you seem to be offensive to me, prejudice, and belittling. Maybe this isn't your intention either. Communication in writting can sometimes be difficult when discussing such emotional subjects. You believe strongly as I do, but it seems to me that you assume that you know what I believe. You do not.

For some reason and ("I'm not accusing you"), we do not make very good conversation. Maybe it's a personality conflict I don't know. Maybe it's poor composition of what we say to each other, but at any rate it's not good discussion. I'm willing to agree to disagree and let it go at that I do not wish to make you an enemy.

So if I may suggest, we confine our scribbling to one another to doctrine only and leave each other out of it. Lets be thoughtful as to how we might sound to the other and not expect each other to guess what we really mean.

Clarity seems to me to be the only solution, out side of no conversation at all. and I much prefer clarity. What do you think.

In Christ;

Romanbear

 

[frumanchu]

Agreed. I felt you were misrepresenting both myself and my position completely, so I was simply defending both.

In any case, let's start anew.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Hi BretherninChrist;
Respectfully I ask you to consider this. In Romans 3:10-11 Paul is quoting scripture, because in the first verse you reference it clearly states "as it is written" Makes me think where else is this written so that Paul can say " it is written" this below is just one place where this is written. It is actually written in two places. Read it carefully and you'll see what type of person said this.

Psa 14:1 Unto the end, a psalm for David. The fool hath said in his heart: There is no God. They are corrupt, and are become abominable in their ways: there is none that doth good, no not one.

Psa 14:2 The Lord hath looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there be any that understand and seek God.

Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are become unprofitable together: there is none that doth good: no not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they acted deceitfully: the poison of asps is under their lips. Their mouth is full of cursing and bitterness; their feet are swift to shed blood. Destruction and unhappiness in their ways; and the way of peace they have not known: there is no fear of God before their eyes.

It is also stated in Paslms 53:1-3 we have to remember these are the rantings of a fool that Paul is quoting. Notice the fool say's also there is no God.

I would think that it would be obvious that there are those who seek God, both when the fool said it and when Paul quoted it. Was not Paul and the disciples seeking God. If they were then this statement is misunderstood when people use it to proclaim that No one seeks God...

If you're a Calvinist and you believe that no one seeks God. I have to ask on what basis do you believe this. It's certainly not God breathed.

"Faith comes first" I'm glad that you recognize that this is true. To know where faith comes from all you have to do is look at scripture. In Romans 10:17. Faith comes by Hearing the word of God.

That is what God say And I believe it but their is a lot of people who hear it and do not believe and I have answered that several times

Gal 5:22-23 Fruit of the Spirit gives faith...maybe you have a problem with election, chosen, chose, predestination, I do not know

I do not know what calvinism preaches! no clue.

You see even though Calvinism says that no one can hear. They have no scripture to back up this theory. When we are drawn by God to Christ what would be the point to draw us if we couldn't hear. If we couldn't hear then we would have no faith. Hearing the word brings faith. Faith is not given in Christ before we hear it, because how can we believe if we know nothing of Christ. Faith is believing.

Regeneration is what happens when we have faith and trust in God, not the other way around. Regeneration is being saved.

I was brought up in a Christian home. We all went church no matter what. My brothers and I had no choice. I knew that there was in deed a God and that Christ was His son. How ever I was not saved until I accepted Him as my savior. I was drawn every time I heard the gospel. Especially when the sermon was about the death and resurrection of Christ. I could feel the tugging on me to confess but I was embarrassed to let the whole church know that I wasn't already saved. You see my parents were very involved in the church my father a deacon my mother taught Sunday school. Everyone assumed that I was already saved even my parents.

Then one night at the evening service the preacher was preaching about the things they put Christ through just before His crucifixion. How they whipped Him and tore flesh from His body. How they gambled for His clothing. How they cursed Him and reviled Him. How the people would rather have a criminal in there midst than our precious Lord. How the Romans made Him a crown of thorns and placed it upon His head and no doubt took a stick and shoved it down on His head so it wouldn't fall off. How they spit on Him and made fun of Him.How the people hated Him because of the truth He brought them that they couldn't accept. Truth hurts and it must have hurt these people very much, because it made them Hate Him.They wanted Him dead because they couldn't take it any longer. These learned people who believed in there minds that this couldn't be the Mesiah.What a story of perfect Love He laid down His life for the world and all we have to do is accept Him...... No one has ever Love me like He does and I came to realize that what people think isn't what is important. Christ is... Then I confessed Jesus Christ to my self and the whole church. I was crying so uncontrollably that everyone was looking at me then I realized that everyone knew that I was under conviction because it was so obvious. At this point embarrassment made no difference.I surrendered to Christ I let Him have control.....

Some have told me that I was already saved because I believed long before I confessed. But that's not true. It wasn't until I accepted Him and confessed Him.......... This is when my life started to change. It was like having a huge weight taken off me. The most wonderful experience in my life.

In Christ

Romanbear

 

[Romanbear]

Hi Frumanchu;

A quote from you;
I'm pointing to a historical and Biblical fact. God's presence on the mercy seat of the Ark was His presense among His people, but they did not have unfettered and free access to Him as we do now. I seriously doubt that the high priest went into the Holy of Holies with a list of questions submitted by the people. That was not the purpose of his entrance. We indeed are more blessed than they by the fact that we can come before the Father freely.


My Reply;
Moses did have direct contact with God and did ask questions of God. First Moses didn't think that he was the best possible choice for the mission God sent him on.Second Someone had to direct Moses as to what to write about the origins of man. Not only Moses but all the prophets had contact through visions and not only asked questions but tested God and wrestled with Him. If man were unconditionally elected why not say so He would have directly told Them. The fact is, that No where in the old testament is there anything written about unconditional election. The Jews weren't unconditionally elected they were chosen to show the strength of God. This very fact shows condition. They were the least of all the people of the earth. It is through there weakness that God's power was revealed.

Adam's sin wasn't a fall from grace and the punishment had nothing to do with his choice of good over evil. It had to do with the knowledge of good and evil.Until Adam ate of the fruit he was going to live for ever. after he ate the fruit he lost his eternal life not his spiritual life. and yes he did die some 345 years later.It was on the day that he ate the fruit that he lost his life eternal in the Garden of Eden. The reason he was forbidden to reenter the garden was so that he wouldn't be able to eat of the tree of life and live for ever in sin.
It was his eternal physical life that he lost.
No where does it say other wise that I know of if you do please show me.

A quote from you;
You still haven't answered why a person would come to faith in the first place, which is the main point of contention between us. Man chooses according to his desire, and man does not desire God. So how does that change?

My Reply;
Faith comes by hearing the word of God.
Personally I believe that it's when God draws us. It's true that not all are drawn but then not all hear the word. I believe that all men are drawn when hearing the word, just that most reject the calling for all sorts of reasons from the love of sin to the fear of having to give up something. Or like my self before I was saved. Embarrassment fear of what people will think... Fear of being label a religious fanatic.

A quote from you;
Paul says it is not of works. James says faith without it is dead. Please explain.

My Reply;
They're both right works alone does not save us, and faith without works is not faith at all. Therefore dead. In other words, works are a result of my faith. I believe in Christ and in faith I do what He has commanded. Which is to tell others about Christ this the most important of work. I visit the sick and imprisoned and help the poor.As the song goes I love to tell the story...
Have you ever known Christians that say the Lord hasn't called me to do this or that to preach or tell others about Christ and they always have an excuse. I would say there faith is dead because they can't show there faith in Christ.

A quote from you;
And what of the people who die never having heard the Gospel? I've thought about it extensively and meditated on it thoroughly. I rejoice that ultimately the decision rested in God's hands because if it were up to me I'd be justly condemned.

My Reply;
What worries me at times is the ones who the Lord prompted me to talk to and I didn't for one reason or another. I'm not perfect in any category of works. I fail all the time. I can't tell you if anyone I've talked to about Christ ever accepted Christ and is saved because I can't see there heart. As far as the ones who have lived and died without ever hearing, I can't truthfully answer. Maybe we only think they couldn't have had there chance. I'm sure there are many and I hope there is a solution, but I don't know of any. Personally I feel responsible for the ones I can tell the story to and haven't.

A quote from you;
You are in support of the notion that God can still reject us even if we do believe,

My Reply;
I know you know enough scripture to answer this. Devils and demons believe and tremble. believeing alone does not open the door to heaven.I've believed ever since I can remember, because my whole upbringing was in a Baptist church. But I didn't surrender until the conviction was right. Read the post to BreatherninChrist. There you will see how I became a Christian.Which is why I could never accept unconditional election as truth. I've had other Calvinist tell me they didn't have a choice in being saved they were saved against there will .This is not true God doesn't need to dragg anyone to heaven

In Christ;
Romanbear

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Hi Frumanchu;

A quote from you;
I'm pointing to a historical and Biblical fact. God's presence on the mercy seat of the Ark was His presense among His people, but they did not have unfettered and free access to Him as we do now. I seriously doubt that the high priest went into the Holy of Holies with a list of questions submitted by the people. That was not the purpose of his entrance. We indeed are more blessed than they by the fact that we can come before the Father freely.


My Reply;
Moses did have direct contact with God and did ask questions of God. First Moses didn't think that he was the best possible choice for the mission God sent him on.Second Someone had to direct Moses as to what to write about the origins of man. Not only Moses but all the prophets had contact through visions and not only asked questions but tested God and wrestled with Him. If man were unconditionally elected why not say so He would have directly told Them. The fact is, that No where in the old testament is there anything written about unconditional election. The Jews weren't unconditionally elected they were chosen to show the strength of God. This very fact shows condition. They were the least of all the people of the earth. It is through there weakness that God's power was revealed.

Adam's sin wasn't a fall from grace and the punishment had nothing to do with his choice of good over evil. It had to do with the knowledge of good and evil.Until Adam ate of the fruit he was going to live for ever. after he ate the fruit he lost his eternal life not his spiritual life. and yes he did die some 345 years later.It was on the day that he ate the fruit that he lost his life eternal in the Garden of Eden. The reason he was forbidden to reenter the garden was so that he wouldn't be able to eat of the tree of life and live for ever in sin.
It was his eternal physical life that he lost.
No where does it say other wise that I know of if you do please show me.

A quote from you;
You still haven't answered why a person would come to faith in the first place, which is the main point of contention between us. Man chooses according to his desire, and man does not desire God. So how does that change?

My Reply;
Faith comes by hearing the word of God.
Personally I believe that it's when God draws us. It's true that not all are drawn but then not all hear the word. I believe that all men are drawn when hearing the word, just that most reject the calling for all sorts of reasons from the love of sin to the fear of having to give up something. Or like my self before I was saved. Embarrassment fear of what people will think... Fear of being label a religious fanatic.

A quote from you;
Paul says it is not of works. James says faith without it is dead. Please explain.

My Reply;
They're both right works alone does not save us, and faith without works is not faith at all. Therefore dead. In other words, works are a result of my faith. I believe in Christ and in faith I do what He has commanded. Which is to tell others about Christ this the most important of work. I visit the sick and imprisoned and help the poor.As the song goes I love to tell the story...
Have you ever known Christians that say the Lord hasn't called me to do this or that to preach or tell others about Christ and they always have an excuse. I would say there faith is dead because they can't show there faith in Christ.

A quote from you;
And what of the people who die never having heard the Gospel? I've thought about it extensively and meditated on it thoroughly. I rejoice that ultimately the decision rested in God's hands because if it were up to me I'd be justly condemned.

My Reply;
What worries me at times is the ones who the Lord prompted me to talk to and I didn't for one reason or another. I'm not perfect in any category of works. I fail all the time. I can't tell you if anyone I've talked to about Christ ever accepted Christ and is saved because I can't see there heart. As far as the ones who have lived and died without ever hearing, I can't truthfully answer. Maybe we only think they couldn't have had there chance. I'm sure there are many and I hope there is a solution, but I don't know of any. Personally I feel responsible for the ones I can tell the story to and haven't.

A quote from you;
You are in support of the notion that God can still reject us even if we do believe,

My Reply;
I know you know enough scripture to answer this. Devils and demons believe and tremble. believeing alone does not open the door to heaven.I've believed ever since I can remember, because my whole upbringing was in a Baptist church. But I didn't surrender until the conviction was right. Read the post to BreatherninChrist. There you will see how I became a Christian.Which is why I could never accept unconditional election as truth. I've had other Calvinist tell me they didn't have a choice in being saved they were saved against there will .This is not true God doesn't need to dragg anyone to heaven

In Christ;
Romanbear

has anyone read Jonah God doesn't drag anyone he just makes them willing to go one way or another.....

God Did and continues to do ALL THE WORK for are SALVATION
..........past, present and future Salvation.....................

was the devil or demons offered salvation ...NO

Because Peter denied Jesus did God get rid of him for this ....NO

we have a good God to him all GLORY

 

[frumanchu]

Moses did have direct contact with God and did ask questions of God. First Moses didn't think that he was the best possible choice for the mission God sent him on.Second Someone had to direct Moses as to what to write about the origins of man. Not only Moses but all the prophets had contact through visions and not only asked questions but tested God and wrestled with Him. If man were unconditionally elected why not say so He would have directly told Them. The fact is, that No where in the old testament is there anything written about unconditional election.

As I pointed out previously, nowhere in the OT does it come right out and say that God is triune in nature, nevertheless the Trinity is Biblical fact. And many, including myself, would argue that the NT DOES explicitly state that man's election is unconditional.

The Jews weren't unconditionally elected they were chosen to show the strength of God. This very fact shows condition. They were the least of all the people of the earth. It is through there weakness that God's power was revealed.

Wait a second...are you saying that God chose the nation of Israel because they met some condition?!? That's not Scripturally sound at all.

Adam's sin wasn't a fall from grace and the punishment had nothing to do with his choice of good over evil. It had to do with the knowledge of good and evil.Until Adam ate of the fruit he was going to live for ever. after he ate the fruit he lost his eternal life not his spiritual life. and yes he did die some 345 years later.It was on the day that he ate the fruit that he lost his life eternal in the Garden of Eden. The reason he was forbidden to reenter the garden was so that he wouldn't be able to eat of the tree of life and live for ever in sin. It was his eternal physical life that he lost. No where does it say other wise that I know of if you do please show me.

I'm sorry, but you just accused me of arguing something that was not explicitly stated in the OT, and then you proceed to tell me that Adam was going to live physically forever? Please provide me with the chapter and verse that states Adam was going to physically live forever prior to the Fall. And the verse I quoted didn't say that the day he ate of it he would surely lose his eternal life...it said he would DIE.

Faith comes by hearing the word of God.
Personally I believe that it's when God draws us. It's true that not all are drawn but then not all hear the word. I believe that all men are drawn when hearing the word, just that most reject the calling for all sorts of reasons from the love of sin to the fear of having to give up something. Or like my self before I was saved. Embarrassment fear of what people will think... Fear of being label a religious fanatic.

Hmm...and yet Jesus said He would draw all men unto Himself, didn't He?

Again, you are still not addressing the primary issue. I've already addressed the role of the Word in bringing a person to faith. If faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (which it does), and some never hear the Word (and thus never have the opportunity for faith), then please explain to me how your theology is more 'fair' than Calvinism.

What worries me at times is the ones who the Lord prompted me to talk to and I didn't for one reason or another. I'm not perfect in any category of works. I fail all the time. I can't tell you if anyone I've talked to about Christ ever accepted Christ and is saved because I can't see there heart. As far as the ones who have lived and died without ever hearing, I can't truthfully answer. Maybe we only think they couldn't have had there chance. I'm sure there are many and I hope there is a solution, but I don't know of any. Personally I feel responsible for the ones I can tell the story to and haven't.

As I said previously, I have a perfectly logical and scriptural answer to the question I asked. As far as your personal witness, I agree that we should endeavor to never miss an opportunity to share the Gospel, but when it comes down to it one plants, another waters....but it is GOD who gives the increase.

I know you know enough scripture to answer this. Devils and demons believe and tremble. believeing alone does not open the door to heaven.I've believed ever since I can remember, because my whole upbringing was in a Baptist church. But I didn't surrender until the conviction was right. Read the post to BreatherninChrist. There you will see how I became a Christian.Which is why I could never accept unconditional election as truth. I've had other Calvinist tell me they didn't have a choice in being saved they were saved against there will .This is not true God doesn't need to dragg anyone to heaven

The Gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing. The unregenerate mind simply does not and will not accept it. The carnal mind is enmity with God. It neither seeks nor understand Him. So there must be some change in man prior to his accepting Christ. That change can't be simply 'hearing the Word' as you say because clearly many hear the Word and continue to reject God. When Calvinists say they 'had no choice' in being saved, we mean that we were rebellious against God, passing off the gospel as foolishness. It wasn't until the Holy Spirit gave us a new heart and ears to hear that we heard the gospel for what it really was. The outward call of the gospel worked with the inward call of the Holy Spirit to produce faith in us that resulted in our justification (and thus our salvation).

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth


nice verse

 

[Romanbear]

Hi Frumnachu;
I turn the other cheek again and I've put you on my ignore list. A conversation with you is no longer beneficial.
In Christ;
Romanbear

 

[frumanchu]

Hi Frumnachu;
I turn the other cheek again and I've put you on my ignore list. A conversation with you is no longer beneficial.
In Christ;
Romanbear

It seems to me you're playing the victim in a backhanded attempt to portray me in a malicious light. My replies have been civil, and certainly as tame if not more so than posts I've received from you on past threads. I feel no need to apologize, for it seems my very presence coupled with my unwillingness to swallow inconsistent and unsound doctrine is enough to offend you.

When you're ready to discuss theology again, I'll be here.

God bless,
Fru

 

[MizDoulos]

Note to everyone: Let's please keep the discussion on topic and direct any conflict or personal opinions of others using your e-mail or the private message option. I would suggest re-reading the forum rules to familiarize yourselves with what is and what is not acceptable to post.

Thank you for your cooperation.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth


nice verse

 

[Colossians]

Probably the main reason those who are not Calvinists are not Calvinists is that they don't really understand what it is they are not.

If they did understand what it is they are not, they would then be what they are now not: Calvinists.

 

[Colossians]

Roman bear,

Hi Frumnachu;
I turn the other cheek again and I've put you on my ignore list.

In other words, you're turning the other cheek by not turning the other cheek.

 

[Romanbear]

Collosians;
Neither frumanchu or I are the subject
In Christ;
Romanbear

 

[frumanchu]

Collossians, I don't think the subject was as important for some as being right. Perhaps the discussion will return to the subject at some point