The Meaning of "FOREKNEW" in Romans 8:29

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frumanchu

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This is from the Appendix of the book "The Five Points of Calvinism: Defined, Defended, Documented" by David N. Steele and Curtis C. Thomas. It is an excellent work on the Scriptural support for Calvinism and a thorough explanation of each of the five points in the system.

For your discussion and comments...


THE MEANING OF “FOREKNEW” IN ROMANS 8:29


“For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.“ Romans 8:29,30

Broadly speaking there have been two general views as to the meaning and use of the word “foreknew” in Romans 8:29. One class of commentators (the Arminians) maintain that Paul is saying that God predestined to salvation those whom He foreknew would respond to His offer of grace (i.e., those whom He saw would of their own free will repent of their sins and believe the gospel). Godet, in commenting on Romans 8:29, asks the question: “In what respect did God thus foreknow them?” and answers that they were “foreknown as sure to fulfill the conditions of salvation, viz. faith; so: foreknown as His by faith.” [sup]1[/sup] The word "foreknew” is thus understood by Arminians to mean that God knew beforehand which sinners would believe, etc., and on the basis of this knowledge He predestined them unto salvation.

The other class of commentators (the Calvinists) reject the above view on two grounds. First, because the Arminians’ interpretation is not in keeping with the meaning of Paul’s language and second, because it is out of harmony with the system of doctrine taught in the rest of the Scriptures. Calvinists contend that the passage teaches that God set His heart upon (i.e., foreknew) certain individuals; these He predestined or marked out to be saved. Notice that the text does not say that God knew SOMETHING ABOUT particular individuals (that they would do this or that), but it states that God knew the individuals THEMSELVES – those whom He knew He predestined to be made like Christ. The word “foreknew” as used here is thus understood to be equivalent to “foreloved” – those who were the objects of God’s love, He marked out for salvation.

The questions raised by the two opposing interpretations are these: Did God look down through time and see that certain individuals would believe and thus predestine them unto salvation on the basis of this foreseen faith? Or did God set His heart on certain individuals and because of His love for them predestine that they should be called and given faith in Christ by the Holy Spirit and thus be saved? In other words, is the individual’s faith the cause or the result of God’s predestination?



A. The meaning of “foreknew” in Romans 8:29

God has always possessed perfect knowledge of all creatures and of all events. There has never been a time when anything pas, present, or future was not fully known to Him.* But it is not His knowledge of future events (of what people would do, etc.) which is referred to in Romans 8:29,30, for Paul clearly states that those whom He foreknew He predestined, He called, He justified, etc. Since all men are not predestined, called, and justified, it follows that all men were not foreknown by God in the sense spoken of in verse 29.


It is for this reason that the Arminians are forced to add some qualifying notion. They read into the passage some idea not contained in the language itself such as those whom He foreknew would believe etc., He predestined, called and justified. But according to the Biblical usage of the words “know,” “knew,” and “foreknew” there is not the least need to make such an addition, and since it is unnecessary, it is improper. When the Bible speaks of God knowing particular individuals, it often means that He has special regard for them, that they are the objects of His affection and concern. For example in Amos 3:2, God, speaking to Israel says,“You only have I known of all the families of the earth; therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.” The Lord know about all the families of the earth, but He knew Israel in a special way.* They were His chosen people whom He had set His heart upon. See Deuteronomy 7:7,8; 10:15. Because Israel was His in a special sense He chastised them, cf. Hebrews 12:5,6.*God, speaking to Jeremiah, said, “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you,” (Jeremiah 1:5). The meaning here is not that God knew about Jeremiah but that He had a special regard for the prophet before He formed him in his mother’s womb. Jesus also used the word “knew” in the sense of personal, intimate awareness. “On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers’ “ (Matt. 7:22,23). Our Lord cannot be understood here as saying, I knew nothing about you, for it is quite evident that He knew all too much about them – their evil character and evil works; hence, His meaning must be, I never knew you intimately nor personally, I never regarded you as the objects of my favor or love. Paul uses the word in the same way in I Corinthians 8:3, “But if one loves God, one is known by him,” and also II Timothy 2:19, “the Lord knows those who are His.” The Lord knows about all men but He only knows those “who love Him, who are called according to His purpose” (Rom 8:28) – those who are His!


Murray’s argument in favor of this meaning of “foreknew” is very good.*“It should be observed that the text says ‘whom He foreknew’; whom is the object of the verb and there is no qualifying addition.* This, of itself, shows that, unless there is some other compelling reason, the expression ‘whom he foreknew’ contains within itself the differentiation which is presupposed. If the apostle had in mind some ‘qualifying adjunct’ it would have been simple to supply it. Since he adds none we are forced to inquire if the actual terms he uses can express the differentiation implied. The usage of Scripture provides an affirmative answer. Although the term ‘foreknew’ is used seldom in the New Testament, it is altogether indefensible to ignore the meaning so frequently given to the word ‘know’ in the usage of Scripture; ‘foreknow’ merely adds the thought of ‘beforehand’ to the word ‘know’. Many times in Scripture ‘know’ has a pregnant meaning which goes beyond that of mere cognition. It is used in a sense practically synonymous with ‘love’, to set regard upon, to know with peculiar interest, delight, affection, and action (cf. Gen 18:19; Exod. 2:25; Psalm 1:6; 144:3; Jer. 1:5; Amos 3:2; Hosea 13:5; Matt 7:23; I Cor. 8:3; Gal. 4:9; II Tim. 2:19; I John 3:1).* There is no reason why this import of the word ‘know’ should not be applied to ‘foreknow’ in this passage, as also in 11:2 where it also occurs in the same kind of construction and where the thought of election is patently present (cf. 11:5,6). When this import is appreciated, then there is no reason for adding any qualifying notion and ‘whom He foreknew’ is seen to contain within itself the differentiating element required. It means ‘whom he set regard upon’ or ‘whom he knew from eternity with distinguishing affection and delight’ and is virtually equivalent to ‘whom he foreloved’. This interpretation, furthermore, is in agreement with the efficient and determining action which is so conspicuous in every other link of the chain – it is God who predestinates, it is God who calls, it is God who justifies, and it is He who glorifies. Foresight of faith would be out of accord with the determinative action which is predicated of God in these other instances and would constitute a weakening of the total emphasis at the point where we should least expect it….It is not the foresight of difference but the foreknowledge that makes difference to exist, not a foresight that recognizes existence but the foreknowledge that determines existence. It is a sovereign distinguishing love.” [sup]2[/sup]


Hodge observes that “as to know is often to approve and love, it may express the idea of peculiar affection in this case; or it may mean to select or determine upon….The usage of the word is favourable to either modification of this general idea of preferring. ‘The people which he foreknew,’ i.e., loved or selected, Rom. 11:2; ‘Who verily was foreordained (Gr. foreknown), i.e., fixed upon, chosen before the foundation of the world.’ I Peter 1:20; II Tim. 2:19; John 10:14,15; see also Acts 2:23; I Peter 1:2. The idea, therefore, obviously is, that those whom God peculiarly loved, and by thus loving, distinguished or selected from the rest of mankind; or to express both ideas in one word, those whom he elected he predestined, etc.” [sup]3[/sup]


Although God knew about all men before the world began, He did not know all men in the sense that the Bible sometimes uses the word “know,” i.e., with intimate personal awareness and love. It is in this latter sense that God** foreknew* those whom He predestined, called, and justified, as outlinsed in Romans 8:29,30!




B. Romans 8:29 does not refer to the foresight of faith, good works, etc.


As was pointed out above, it is unnecessary and therefore indefensible to add any qualifying notion such as faith to the verb foreknew in Romans 8:29. The Arminians make this addition, not because the language requires it, but because their theological system requires it – they do it to escape the doctrines of unconditional predestination and election. They read the notion of foreseen faith into the verse and then appeal to it in an effort to prove that predestination was based on foreseen events. Thus particular individuals are said to be saved, not because God willed that they should be saved (for He willed the salvation of everyone) but because they themselves willed to be saved. Hence salvation is make to depend ultimately on the individual’s will, not on the sovereign will of Almighty God – faith is understood to be man’s gift to God, not God’s gift to man.


Haldane, comparing Scripture with Scripture, clearly shows that the foreknowledge mentioned in Romans 8:29 cannot have
reference to the foreseen faith, good works, or the sinner’s response to God’s call. “Faith cannot be the cause of foreknowledge, because foreknowledge is before predestination, and faith is the effect of predestination. ‘As many as were ordained to eternal life believed,’ Acts 13:48.* Neither can it be meant of the foreknowledge of good works, because these are the effects of predestination. ‘We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works; which God hath before ordained (or before prepared) that we should walk in them;’ Eph. 2:10. Neither can it be meant of foreknowledge of our concurrence with the external call, because our effectual calling depends not upon that concurrence, but upon God’s purpose and grace, given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 2 Tim. 1:9. By this foreknowledge, then, is meant, as has been observed, the love of God towards those whom he predestinates to be saved through Jesus Christ. All the called of God are foreknown by Him, - that is, they are the objects of His eternal love, and their calling comes from this free love. ‘I have loved thee with an everlasting love; therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn thee,’ Jer. 31:3.” [sup]4[/sup]


Murray, in rejecting the view that “foreknew” in Romans 8:29 refers to the foresight of faith, is certainly correct in stating that “It needs to be emphasized that the rejection of this interpretation is not dictated by a predestinarian interest. Even if it were granted that ‘foreknew’ means foresight of faith, the biblical doctrine of sovereign election is not thereby eliminated or disproven. For it is certainly true that God foresees faith;* he foresees all that comes to pass.* The question would then simply be: whence proceeds this faith which God foresees? And the only biblical answer is that the faith which God foresees is the faith he himself creates (cf. John 3:3-8; 6:44;45,65; Eph. 2:8; Phil. 1:29; II Pet. 1:2). Hence his eternal foresight of faith is preconditioned by his decree to generate this faith in those whom he foresees as believing, and we are thrown back upon the differentiation which proceeds from God’s own eternal and sovereign election to faith and its consequents. The interest, therefore, is simply one of interpretation as it should be applied to this passage.* On exegetical grounds we shall have to reject the view that ‘foreknew’ refers to the foresight of faith.” [sup]5[/sup]



[sup]1[/sup] Frederic Godet, Commentary on the Epistle to the Romans, p 325.* Italics are his.

[sup]2[/sup] John Murray, The Epistle to the Romans, Vol. I, pp. 316-318.* Italics are his.

[sup]3[/sup] Charles Hodge, Commentary on the Epistle to the Romans, pp. 283, 284. Italics are his.

[sup]4[/sup] Robert Haldane, Exposition of the Epistle to the Romans, p. 397.

[sup]5[/sup] Murray, Romans, Vol. I, p. 316.
 

Romanbear

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frumanchu; :)
If God created the world and everything in it. Then he knew every man...... He created every man...... How is it you say that He only for knew just certain Calvinist?.

Quote from you;
The questions raised by the two opposing interpretations are these: Did God look down through time and see that certain individuals would believe and thus predestine them unto salvation on the basis of this foreseen faith? Or did God set His heart on certain individuals and because of His love for them predestine that they should be called and given faith in Christ by the Holy Spirit and thus be saved? In other words, is the individual’s faith the cause or the result of God’s predestination?

My Reply;
You claim Arminians read something else in to the scripture that just isn't there. Then aren't you doing the same when you claim that God set His heart on certain ones. Rom 8 28-29 doesn't say this. It's your own addition.Besides your claims of what predestination is. Makes God out to be a respector of persons. If predestination is as you claim then God in knowing every one must have only picked out certain ones for what ever reason. Leaving the rest to burn in hell.

Here's a test for you;
If you think you are predestined to do God's will why don't you prove it literally,by submiting your self to this predestination and just sit there and let predestination take over. By this I mean if our lives are predestined then we don't have to encourage life as doing any thing for God. If it's predestined it, "predestination" in of it self will take over, Thus proving your point.

I don't claim to be an Arminian per se. The trashing of them isn't a true Christian attitude. It's obvious that Calvinist such as your self hate what you your selves lable as Arminianism. I feel that this is because the very exisistance of them prove your own doctrine useless. I claim to be born again this to me means that I will and have turned over my life and how it is lived, to God. I believe That Jesus Christ is the son of God. The God of Moses, Jacob, David and all the prophets of the Bible. The mighty Elohim, Adoni,Yahwey Yeshua. Jehovah. I believe that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world and rose again on the third day and after 40 days acended in to heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father.

Can you say that I'm not saved because I'm not Calvinist? Are Calvinist the only ones going to heaven? If not then some how your doctrine of predestination seems some how unimportant. Because if I'm saved and I'm not a Calvinist this proves the doctrine of Calvinism useless to man because it benifits him nothing. I believe in the doctrine of Christ nothing else matters.

I have met some very nice people here, some Calvinist some Arminian the Argument between the two has been going on since the 16th century. What a waste. It has no resolve. When our lord returns which I pray for all the time it will be settled by Him. There will be no questions from either side. Only then will we have peace instead of strife. Love, instead of jealousy. No more envings and no more hatred.
Prase God :clap: come quickly Lord Jesus.
In Christ;
Romanbear
 
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frumanchu

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Romanbear said:
frumanchu; :)
If God created the world and everything in it. Then he knew every man...... He created every man...... How is it you say that He only for knew just certain Calvinist?.

The whole point of that article was to show that 'knowing' in the verse in question is not the type of knowledge you're thinking of.

When Gabriel announced to Mary that she would conceive a child, she asked how it could be since she knew not a man. Certainly she knew lots of men, but she was not intimate with any of them. Likewise with Jesus telling those who called Him 'Lord, Lord' that He never knew them. Surely He knew everything about them, but He did not regard them with the intimacy we're speaking of.

It seems you missed the entire point of the article, RB. :)

You claim Arminians read something else in to the scripture that just isn't there. Then aren't you doing the same when you claim that God set His heart on certain ones. Rom 8 28-29 doesn't say this. It's your own addition.Besides your claims of what predestination is. Makes God out to be a respector of persons. If predestination is as you claim then God in knowing every one must have only picked out certain ones for what ever reason. Leaving the rest to burn in hell.

The article has made the case that to 'foreknow' as put forth in Rom 8:29 carries a different meaning than simple, passive observance. There is CLEAR Scriptural precedent for such an interpretation, and as the author points out the 'election according to foreseen faith' argument has absolutely no exegetical support from this verse.

As far as my claim as to what predestination is, it by no means makes God a respector of persons. It would be if God's love/'knowing' of a particular person were due to some measure of merit or attractiveness on his part, but that's not our position at all. In fact, quite the opposite...God's love for that person is completely initiated by Him and has its whole cause in Him. Hence the term UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION.

You are also mistaken in saying that God knew everyone and then "picked out certain ones for whatever reason." Again the whole point of this article was to show that, in the sense put forth in Romans 8:29, God did NOT 'know' everyone. Election was according to His good pleasure and will. Assuming that it was according to anything having to do with us is, as far as the verse in question is concerned, is to do precisely what is stated...to read this presumption right into the verse and thus doing great violence to the text.

Here's a test for you;
If you think you are predestined to do God's will why don't you prove it literally,by submiting your self to this predestination and just sit there and let predestination take over. By this I mean if our lives are predestined then we don't have to encourage life as doing any thing for God. If it's predestined it, "predestination" in of it self will take over, Thus proving your point.

You have a completely false understanding of what Calvinist predestination is all about. The predestination involved in Romans 8:29 has to do with calling, justification, and glorification. Predestination does not mean I'm compelled to any and every physical or mental action simply by the power of predestination itself. So just 'sitting here and letting predestination take over' is not a test of the theory of predestination as you're putting it forth, primarily because neither of us knows whether or not I actually am predestined to do just that:)

I don't claim to be an Arminian per se. The trashing of them isn't a true Christian attitude. It's obvious that Calvinist such as your self hate what you your selves lable as Arminianism. I feel that this is because the very exisistance of them prove your own doctrine useless.

I'm not 'trashing' them at all. This article simply shows the gross errors in a common Arminian position with respect to a very critical verse to the argument. I will readily agree that I hate Arminianism, but I by no means hate Arminians. That indeed would not be a Christian attitude. Your notion that I hate it because its very existence proves my doctrine useless is rediculous. That's like saying I hate lies because they render my truth useless. I believe Arminianism is gross error. I never said, nor will I ever say, that a particular person is not saved simply because he or she is an Arminian.

Can you say that I'm not saved because I'm not Calvinist? Are Calvinist the only ones going to heaven? If not then some how your doctrine of predestination seems some how unimportant. Because if I'm saved and I'm not a Calvinist this proves the doctrine of Calvinism useless to man because it benifits him nothing. I believe in the doctrine of Christ nothing else matters.

As I just stated, I would never say that you're not saved just because you're not a Calvinist. But the fact that adherence to a doctrine is not the means by which we are saved by no means then trivializes such doctrines altogether. The doctrines to which we hold matter a great deal because they often affect to great lengths the means by which we operate and live as Christians. The moment you relegate doctrine to a matter of small import is the moment you open the floodgates to all manner of heresy, which can be disasterous to the sanctification and edification of the body of Christ. It's nice that you believe in the doctrine of 'Christ and nothing else' but if you do not guide your principles and decisions by the doctrines laid forth in the Word you will have a lot to answer for before the Throne. To merely be satisfied with our salvation alone is not enough. There is work to do and reward to be gained. If Christ Himself spoke of election, why am I not to bother myself with it, RB?

I have met some very nice people here, some Calvinist some Arminian the Argument between the two has been going on since the 16th century. What a waste. It has no resolve. When our lord returns which I pray for all the time it will be settled by Him. There will be no questions from either side. Only then will we have peace instead of strife. Love, instead of jealousy. No more envings and no more hatred.

The argument has been going on since Eden, RB. To argue that we should just drop it and ignore it simply because it's existed for so long is not an option. Evil has been here this whole time. Are we to stop resisting it and just ignore it because 'it has no resolve?' I agree that all matters will be settled at the return of our Lord. Unfortunately we will still have to answer and account for all our wrongness even after we've been righted. I personally don't want to be the one who escapes as through a fire.
 
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Drotar

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Romanbear, it's not difficult. You're Calvinist or Arminian, or some comibination.

But the answer cannot be "No."

Do you believe that Jesus died intending to save all mankind?

Do you believe that God's calling is certain?

Do you believe you can lose your salvation?

The answer must be yes or no. Therefore you are either some sort of Calvinist or Arminian.

Whether or not you like being labeled as one or the other doesn't matter. You are one or the other. That's the reality of it. Since each point is a "Yes" or a "No" according to what you believe, you must be "Calvinist" or you must be "Arminian". Doesn't matter if you like it or not. You are one or the other or some combination. TTYL Jesus loves you!

Good to see another defender of Reformed theology! Well, good to see another defender of Reformed soteriology anyways! We'll have to settle the issue of dispensationalism and the rapture of course. ;)
 
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Romanbear

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Drotar;
Your classification of Christians can be nothing more than a comparason of those whom you classify and your self. A measuring of who is more Christian. If you classify me as one you disagree with then you are making an attempt to elevate your self above others. I was told several years ago that I was an Arminian but I do not believe as Arminians do. The reason I'm classified as Arminian is not because I'm Arminian.It's because I disagree with Calvinist. Who may I ask here at this message board has the right to judge anothers Christianity. Do you feel this is your right?. Are you Jesus Christ?.

Classification is nothing more than dividing. and to devide your have to assume you know the absolute truth. and if anyone disagrees with you they are all wrong. No one has a perfect doctrine no one has the absolute truth about the doctrine of Jesus Christ

Classification is the beginnings of prejudice. Think on this awhile before you reply.
In Christ;
Romanbear
 
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frumanchu

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Romanbear said:
Who may I ask here at this message board has the right to judge anothers Christianity. Do you feel this is your right?. Are you Jesus Christ?

This classification relates to doctrine, rb. I am white. Michael Jordan is black. That we are both human does not invalidate that distinction. Your doctrine appears to for the most part line up with Arminianism. The basic distinction is made by comparing the 'five points' of the Calvinist system with your position. The points are pretty much yes or no. If you reject the majority of the points, typically you'd be considered an Arminian. If you agree with most of them, you're typically considered a Calvinist. There often terms for the middle ground between full five-point Calvinism and full five-point Arminianism (such as an Amyraldians who believe in all the points except limited atonement).

Let me ask you directly so we can dispense with the argument over terms and classification. Indicate whether or not you believe in the following doctrines:

Total depravity/inability of man

Unconditional election unto salvation

Limited intent of the atonement of Christ

Irresistable grace, efficacious unto salvation

Perseverance in faith of the elect unto death

Once I know you position on these matters we can dispense with arguing about classification of your doctrinal position and get on to actually discussing the doctrines themselves in light of Scripture.

Fair enough?
 
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Romanbear

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Frumanchu;
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Take a close look at this verse who do you think is the "first born among many". Do you think that all men are being referred to here?.
We both know it's Jesus who is the first born among many. He was predestinated to be.
I don't believe that men are predestined as Calvinist claim. How ever predestination does exsist for the purposes of God.I believe that the man who provided the colt of an *** for Christ to ride in to Jerusalem was predestined to do so. I also believe that Judas was predestined to treason our savior. I believe that all the disciples were predestined to be so. This still is not all men who come to Christ.
I'm sorry you think I missed the point of your post. Aren't you the one who posted it?and if so then you are saying that this is what you believe.I simply disagree.
I've been classified as an Arminian and I do not believe as you claim./
I believe in election just not unconditional.I believe in atonement just not limited. I believe in grace just not irresistible. I do not believe in depraviaty and I do not believe in OSAS. I do not believe man is regenerated then made to believe and repent. I do not believe that Calvinism is supported in scripture I believe it is a lie and heresy
In Christ;
Romanbear
 
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Romanbear

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Frumanchu;
You're kidding Michael is Black! Then you recognize that prejudice is caused by classification. Isn't it terrible that whites and blacks both came from the same ancestors. We are all related. What do yah know? Of corse the real division came from Ham .
Tell me if your child had a black baby would you classify it differently, than your other grandchildren?. If not, why do you think that God would? we are all God's children... Or maybe you would disown which ever child brought your family such shame and disgrace.
In Christ;
Romanbear
 
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frumanchu

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Romanbear said:
I've been classified as an Arminian and I do not believe as you claim.

I believe in election just not unconditional.
There's the U.

I believe in atonement just not limited.
There's L.

I believe in grace just not irresistible.
There's I.

I do not believe in depraviaty...
The T...

and I do not believe in OSAS.
...and the P.

You are, by definition, in theological terms, an Arminian. I am basing that assertion solely on what you just explicitly stated. If you want to disown the term 'Arminian' that's your prerogative, but I'm going to call a spade a spade.

I do not believe that Calvinism is supported in scripture I believe it is a lie and heresy

Thusfar, at least in this thread, you've demonstrated a complete lack of understanding when it comes to Calvinism. What you seem to have claimed that Drotar and I are doing is classifying you as an Arminian simply because you disagree with us. As I have just demonstrated, we classify you as an Arminian based on your doctrines.

BTW, your commentary regarding Rom 8:29 has absolutely no bearing on the issue. Indeed we both know the "he" in the latter half of the verse refers to Christ, but you do gross violence to the text by trying to say that the 'whom' at the beginning of the verse refers also to Christ because then it would go one to say that He was predestined to be conformed to the image of Himself. That's rediculous and nonsensicle.
 
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frumanchu

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Romanbear said:
Frumanchu;
You're kidding Michael is Black! Then you recognize that prejudice is caused by classification.

No, it's not. Classification has to do with established and observable fact. Prejudice is an unmerited assumption (usually of a negative nature) made based on characteristics associated with the classification that are not actually the basis of it. To return to our example, men are classified as 'black' based on the color of their skin (the result of melanin). It is perfectly acceptable for me to refer to someone I see matching those same characteristics as 'black.' Now if the majority of black men I've encountered in my life were criminals, and upon encountering another black person in a restaurant I keep a distance assuming he may intend to rob me, then I would be guilty of prejudice because though my mind equated black men with criminal behavior, such behavior is not what makes a man 'black.'

Prejudice is caused by sin, not by classification.

Tell me if your child had a black baby would you classify it differently, than your other grandchildren?. If not, why do you think that God would?

As you quite obviously pointed out in the question, it is a black baby. It is also my grandchild. This isn't an either/or situation, bear. Yes, I would absolutely classify the child differently because it IS different. In the same way that one may be a blond and the other brunette. That does NOT mean that I would treat, look upon, or love that child any differently.

And why would I disown it, bear? Why would that child bring disgrace and shame to my family? I think perhaps you should contemplate your situational analogies a little more carefully before you present them lest you give us all a few new classifications to apply to you. I'm not the one sounding prejudiced here.
 
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nobdysfool

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Romanbear said:
Frumanchu;
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Take a close look at this verse who do you think is the "first born among many". Do you think that all men are being referred to here?.
We both know it's Jesus who is the first born among many. He was predestinated to be.

Let's break that sentence down: For whom (men) He (God) did foreknow, He (God) did also predestinate to be conformed to the image of His (God's) Son (Jesus), that He (Jesus) might be the firstborn among many (a large number, but not all men) brethren (those who are predestinated, and therefore saved.).

As Frumanchu pointed out, what you're saying is that Jesus was predestinated to be conformed to the image of Himself. That makes no sense! How could He be otherwise, that God would need to act in order to make it so?


I don't believe that men are predestined as Calvinist claim. How ever predestination does exsist for the purposes of God.I believe that the man who provided the colt of an *** for Christ to ride in to Jerusalem was predestined to do so. I also believe that Judas was predestined to treason our savior. I believe that all the disciples were predestined to be so. This still is not all men who come to Christ.

So, in effect, you're saying that Predestination does exist for the Purpose of God, but there are some things that are not classified as the Purpose of God, they just happen. Your examples are indeed classic examples of Predestination, but why stop there? In effect, you're saying that those men were somehow so essential to the Plan of God that He had to Predestinate them in order to ensure His Plan would be fulfilled, but for ordinary joes like you and me, God doesn't bother. Is God's Plan just a rough outline, with large holes that He doesn't fill in?


I've been classified as an Arminian and I do not believe as you claim./
I believe in election just not unconditional.I believe in atonement just not limited. I believe in grace just not irresistible. I do not believe in depraviaty and I do not believe in OSAS. I do not believe man is regenerated then made to believe and repent. I do not believe that Calvinism is supported in scripture I believe it is a lie and heresy
In Christ;

By your own admission, you are an Arminian. If you want to get real technical about it, the difference in doctrinal views is between Augustinianism, which Calvinism springs from, and Pelagianism and its offshoot, Semi-Pelagianism, which is the root of Arminianism. Calvinism and Arminianism work well for the purpose of doctrinal shorthand, though, because they define the doctrinal stances in their present form. This debate arose very early in Church History in it's present form, but Fru is right, it goes all the way back to Eden. "Yea, hath God said..?"
 
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Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them

EXAMPLE

Jonah refuse the Lord since he hated Ninavah BUT the Lord made him willing to go one way or another
 
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Romanbear

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Hi breatheren in Christ;
Jonah refuse the Lord since he hated Ninavah BUT the Lord made him willing to go one way or another

My Reply;
Jonah may have been persuaded to go, but he still had a choice. Jonah was also a minister. He was already devoted to God. Jonah still had a choice he could have stayed in the belly of the fish and not prayed. Since he did pray he wanted away out of his perdicament and God gave him a way out. Not much of a choice ("I admit"), but choice never the less.

We all have a similar choice we can either burn in hell, or surrender to Christ and live. I prefer the latter. :clap:
In Christ;
romanbear :)
 
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Romanbear

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Hi No bodiesfool;
For whom (men)

My Reply;
Wasn't Christ a man? God in the flesh but just as much man, as anyone else.
I agree that some men are predestined. This is true the Bible says so and I believe it. What it does not say any where is that all men must be predestinated to be saved. To be conformed to His image is what happens after we are saved but It doesn't say we are predestined to be saved.

By your own admission, you are an Arminian. If you want to get real technical about it, the difference in doctrinal views is between Augustinianism, which Calvinism springs from, and Pelagianism and its offshoot, Semi-Pelagianism, which is the root of Arminianism. Calvinism and Arminianism work well for the purpose of doctrinal shorthand, though, because they define the doctrinal stances in their present form. This debate arose very early in Church History in it's present form, but Fru is right, it goes all the way back to Eden.

No I never said I'm arminian nor am I Pelagain, or semi. This is your own assumption below is what Arminians believe.


1. God from eternity past determined to save all who believe in Jesus and to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath..."

2.Christ died for and obtained redemption and forgiveness for all,but these benefits are effective only for those who believe on Christ.

3.Man cannot "think". will or do anything that is truly good,and that includes "saving faith" But must be regenerated.
(My Reply to this is That I disagree.)

4.That God's grace is absolutely essential for Salvation,but that it may be resisted.

5.That those truly saved through faith in Christ are empowered by the Holy Spirit to resist sin; But weather they could fall away from the faith "must be more particularly determined by the Holy Scripture,before we our selves can teach it with full persuasion of our minds."

(My Reply; I have no doubt that men can loose there Salvation.)

In effect, you're saying that those men were somehow so essential to the Plan of God that He had to Predestinate them in order to ensure His Plan would be fulfilled, but for ordinary joes like you and me, God doesn't bother.
My Reply;
No He didn't leave the rest of us out. He gave the rest of us a choice. We have the choice weather to burn in hell or surrender to Him and live.
Have you surrendered?
In Christ;
Romanbear :)
 
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Romanbear said:
Hi No bodiesfool;


My Reply;
Wasn't Christ a man? God in the flesh but just as much man, as anyone else.
I agree that some men are predestined. This is true the Bible says so and I believe it. What it does not say any where is that all men must be predestinated to be saved. To be conformed to His image is what happens after we are saved but It doesn't say we are predestined to be saved.



No I never said I'm arminian nor am I Pelagain, or semi. This is your own assumption below is what Arminians believe.


1. God from eternity past determined to save all who believe in Jesus and to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath..."

2.Christ died for and obtained redemption and forgiveness for all,but these benefits are effective only for those who believe on Christ.

3.Man cannot "think". will or do anything that is truly good,and that includes "saving faith" But must be regenerated.
(My Reply to this is That I disagree.)

4.That God's grace is absolutely essential for Salvation,but that it may be resisted.

5.That those truly saved through faith in Christ are empowered by the Holy Spirit to resist sin; But weather they could fall away from the faith "must be more particularly determined by the Holy Scripture,before we our selves can teach it with full persuasion of our minds."

(My Reply; I have no doubt that men can loose there Salvation.)


My Reply;
No He didn't leave the rest of us out. He gave the rest of us a choice. We have the choice weather to burn in hell or surrender to Him and live.
Have you surrendered?
In Christ;
Romanbear :)
 
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We cannot work are way into salvation
eph 2:8-9, Romans 4:5, titus 3:5

are salvation is guarded in 1 peter 1:4
and sealed in eph 1:13

once saved always saved if a son is disobiedent Hebrews 12:6-11 even unto death

disagreeing with the evil thoughts and heart of man that is continuely Gen 6:5, Gen 8:21


can't argue with God. better have verse to back you up
 
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Romanbear

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Hi BreatherninChrist; :)
Choice is a work? I do not believe in a works for salvation doctrine. Just about every Calvinist must go to classes to be able to come up with the same back up. Maybe you all get your defenses from the institutes of Christianity. The whole Bible is about Choice and the people who made them. The consequences of the decisions made by men down through the centuries
Part your scriptures;
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Notice "If ye endure chastening" What do you suppose happens if you don't endure?

A quote from you;

disagreeing with the evil thoughts and heart of man that is continuely Gen 6:5, Gen 8:21

My Reply;
A Rabbi would laugh you right out of the temple if you used these verses to prove total depravity. None of the five points of Calvinism have ever been part of Jewish doctrine. If you believe they have then you've been lied to. Remember the Jews had direct contact with God at the mercy seat. If depravity were total and in the same context as Calvinist make it out to be, the priest would have said so in plain language. They didn't speak in parables Christ did that. For a good reason and this is because He didn't want everyone to understand just yet, because He hadn't paid the price yet.

Here is some scripture from my point of view.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Why do you suppose that Christ would ask to come in your door by knocking? And why do you think we ("if this happened to us") should have to open the door which implies a decision?

A decision is necessary it is not a work! No one is saved unless they in there own heart want to be. This does not effect the Sovereignty of God to give man a choice. He still has the power to judge a mans heart fairly and justly.

Now some have said that the people in this church in Laodicea were already saved, but this my friend is not true. For if they were saved then why were they told to repent, or Christ would spew them out of His mouth. Not only does this prove they weren't saved. But in the same chapter Christ speaks to the church a Philadelphia. He sets before them a door that no one can shut so they can go in and out freely. He tells them they have a little strength and have kept His commandments and have not denied Him. Clearly out of all the 7 churches only this church is given such a fine greeting from Christ.They aren't told to repent.Like the others. This proves them to be the only ones saved. If the others aren't saved They haven't been predestined... Just regular Joes like us.

Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Notice that if our spirit be dead we are too!

Faith cometh by hearing the word of God. But if you do not act on it then you are the looser. Show me your faith. I can show you mine by my works.
Your right works can't save you. but if the Holy spirit has to regenerate you before you can believe. Then Christ is not the way the Holy spirit is.
To be regenerated means to be saved.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This verse does not say regenerate it says DRAW Again implying we have to respond or we won't be saved. I believe in election but it is very conditional no one is saved without faith and repentance first this implies conditions

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Christ is the way no matter what the Holy spirit does. We still have to go through Christ to obtain salvation. Even if we are fore known we still have to accept Christ as our savior... :)

In Christ;

Romanbear
 
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Romanbear said:
Christ is the way no matter what the Holy spirit does. We still have to go through Christ to obtain salvation. Even if we are fore known we still have to accept Christ as our savior... :)

In Christ;

Romanbear


Yes and the Holy spirit get you there NOT MAN
 
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Romanbear

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Hi Breatheren in Christ;
A quote from you,
Yes and the Holy spirit get you there NOT MAN
My Reply;
The Holy spirit does have a role but not in Salvation. I showed you my scriptures wheres your's?. Don't you want to refute them or can you?
May God bless you and lead you to truth.
In Christ;
Romanbear :)
 
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