The majority of scientists agree, and say that there is enough proof, That Jesus was...

[Neogaia777]

I didn't know where to put this, I created it for doubters and non-believers and I know there is plenty of them here, admins can move it if they want...

The majority of scientists and educated people agree, and say that there is enough proof, That Jesus was an actual, real person that existed and walked the earth around the time the Bible says he did...

If he was an actual, real person that existed around the time that the Bible says he did, then why is it such a stretch to believe that the Bible writers were NOT LYING about the things Jesus said and did as is written in the scriptures?

The things Jesus did are possible, as recent discoveries in Quantum Physics are discovering...

Why is this so hard to believe?

Comments?

God Bless!

 

[essentialsaltes]

If he was an actual, real person that existed around the time that the Bible says he did, then why is it such a stretch to believe that the Bible writers were NOT LYING about the things Jesus said and did as is written in the scriptures?

Because then we would have to believe that the Emperor Vespasian cured someone of blindness by spitting on his eyes, and this was proof that Vespasian was divine.

The things Jesus did are possible, as recent discoveries in Quantum Physics are discovering...

citation needed.

 

[lesliedellow]

I didn't know where to put this, I created it for doubters and non-believers and I know there is plenty of them here, admins can move it if they want...

The majority of scientists and educated people agree, and say that there is enough proof, That Jesus was an actual, real person that existed and walked the earth around the time the Bible says he did...

That is the near unanimous opinion of historians, not scientists.

If he was an actual, real person that existed around the time that the Bible says he did, then why is it such a stretch to believe that the Bible writers were NOT LYING about the things Jesus said and did as is written in the scriptures?

One of the reasons there are atheists is because it is intrinsically difficult to believe in something which appears to contradict your own experience; such as resurrection from the dead.

The things Jesus did are possible, as recent discoveries in Quantum Physics are discovering...

Quantum physics have got nothing to do with the miraculous, which by definition involves the unmediated intervention of God into creation.

 

[Gene2memE]

The majority of scientists agree Kim Jong Il was a real person, who existed around the time that officials documents say he did.

Did you know that Kim Jong Il:

Had his birth in Baekdu Mountain prophesied by a swallow and heralded with a double rainbow and a new star in the heavens;
After his birth, the seasons changed immediately from winter to spring;
Shot a 38-under par golf round that included no fewer than 11 holes in one, on his first game;
Wrote no fewer than 1,500 books in three years;
Composed six operas;
Could control the weather with his moods;
Invented the 'double bread with meat' - now known in the West as the hamburger;
Had his birthday celebrated by every nation in the world;
Never had to go to the toilet;
Created the cure for HIV and AIDS.

Why is is such a stretch to believe that the writers of North Korea's official propaganda were not lying about the things Kim Jong Ilsaid and did? The things Kim Jong Il did are possible, as recent discoveries in quantum ruminant waste are discovering...

 

[SepiaAndDust]

The majority of scientists and educated people agree, and say that there is enough proof, That Jesus was an actual, real person that existed and walked the earth around the time the Bible says he did...

I doubt it. The majority of scientists and educated people don't care one way or another. How would you prove such a claim? Gallup Poll?

If he was an actual, real person that existed around the time that the Bible says he did, then why is it such a stretch to believe that the Bible writers were NOT LYING about the things Jesus said and did as is written in the scriptures?

Snopes.com. People believe all kinds of stuff.

The things Jesus did are possible, as recent discoveries in Quantum Physics are discovering...

If you're going to try to shoehorn QEM into religion, you don't have much of an argument. Write a novel, instead.

 

[Hieronymus]

That is the near unanimous opinion of historians, not scientists.

History is not science??

 

[Neogaia777]

I doubt it. The majority of scientists and educated people don't care one way or another. How would you prove such a claim? Gallup Poll?

Research, and I might have said historians, not scientists

Snopes.com. People believe all kinds of stuff.

Like not believing in God or Jesus Christ despite overwhelming evidence

If you're going to try to shoehorn QEM into religion, you don't have much of an argument. Write a novel, instead.

What do you mean? There is lots of evidence out there proving what I am saying...

 

[SepiaAndDust]

Like not believing in God or Jesus Christ despite overwhelming evidence

What's the evidence?

What do you mean? There is lots of evidence out there proving what I am saying...

What's the evidence?

Just a brief suggestion that you really oughtta know what you're talking about if you post anything about proving some aspect of religion with QEM.

 

[Neogaia777]

What's the evidence?

Jesus existence for one, and Jesus being truthfully recorded as being a very wise man from God who could do the miraculous, and is no lie or some grand "conspiracy"

Just a brief suggestion that you really oughtta know what you're talking about if you post anything about proving some aspect of religion with QEM.

Do you deny that QEM says that the seemingly impossible, can become possible, though the power of belief?

 

[SepiaAndDust]

Jesus existence for one, and Jesus being truthfully recorded as being a very wise man from God who could do the miraculous, and is no lie or some grand "conspiracy"

Again, what's the evidence? Post the evidence. If you're going to argue that something is true, then you have to SHOW it.

Do you deny that QEM says that the seemingly impossible, can become possible, though the power of belief?

Yes, friend, I absolutely deny that. And, despite some popular commentary on the subject, that's not what happens in quantum dynamics.

 

[Neogaia777]

Again, what's the evidence? Post the evidence. If you're going to argue that something is true, then you have to SHOW it.

I already did... Jesus actual existence and the truth about what he said and did is proof enough for me...

Jesus existence is proven by numerous other historical documents that, for most, is enough to say they prove his existence, and if he existed, then were the people who wrote about him lying or part of some grand conspiracy, that is the only conclusion I can see...

Yes, friend, I absolutely deny that. And, despite some popular commentary on the subject, that's not what happens in quantum dynamics.

Proof? Please explain to us that this can not happen or be true in quantum dynamics? Everything I've heard says the opposite...

Have you seen Tom Shadyacs documentary "I am", it also supports what I've been saying... The part how they measure and show how his thoughts affected yogurt & how it explains how everything is interconnected and how our thoughts, our "essence" our "vibe" that we give out can affect that interconnected field we call reality...

God Bless!

 

[SepiaAndDust]

I already did... Jesus actual existence and the truth about what he said and did is proof enough for me...

Jesus existence is proven by numerous other historical documents that, for most, is enough to say they prove his existence, and if he existed, then were the people who wrote about him lying or part of some grand conspiracy, that is the only conclusion I can see...

That's the thing--you have to SHOW your evidence. If you don't--if you just say "Well, it's already proven"--then you're not making a valid argument.

Proof? Please explain to us that this can not happen or be true in quantum dynamics? Everything I've heard says the opposite...

Then you're reading popular science crapola that says little or nothing about real quantum dynamics. Lemme guess--you're talking about observation and wave collapse and double-slit experiments? Hogwash!

I'll tell you this--you're not smart enough to understand QEM. That's not an insult. I'm not smart enough, either. There are maybe 1000 people on the entire planet who can comprehend the nature of the quantum world, and even they understand it imperfectly. Those idiotic writers you've been reading are not among them.

Have you seen Tom Shadyacs documentary "I am", it also supports what I've been saying...

No, and I'm not really interested in some layman's idea about quantum mechanics. Shadyacs is a cotton-pickin' joke writer. Don't pay him the slightest attention.

The part how they measure and show how his thoughts affected yogurt & how it explains how everything is interconnected and how our thoughts, our "essence" our "vibe" that we give out can affect that interconnected field we call reality...

Now you're just getting weird! QEM isn't about the weird--it's about the math.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I didn't know where to put this, I created it for doubters and non-believers and I know there is plenty of them here, admins can move it if they want...

The majority of scientists and educated people agree, and say that there is enough proof, That Jesus was an actual, real person that existed and walked the earth around the time the Bible says he did...

If he was an actual, real person that existed around the time that the Bible says he did, then why is it such a stretch to believe that the Bible writers were NOT LYING about the things Jesus said and did as is written in the scriptures?

The things Jesus did are possible, as recent discoveries in Quantum Physics are discovering...

Why is this so hard to believe?

Comments?

God Bless!

Well let's start with your first assertion...that scientists and educated people agree there is enough evidence that Jesus existed as a real person...

Where are you getting this from? Is there some survey I don't know about? How else would you know what the majority of any group of people think?

If you do have some such survey (and I don't think you do, I've looked)...How many of these people have actually researched the evidence for Jesus? Surely you realize that if they haven't researched the evidence, and aren't familiar with the historical method, then it doesn't matter what their field of expertise is....they're making an assertion based on something that they know nothing about.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Jesus may have very well been a real person. But that is no excuse to believe the magical claims of the Bible. In fact the original ending of Mark was thought to be with the empty tomb. There are serious scholars that claim the verse after that were added on. And that was the earliest of Gospels, written about 40 years after the fact.

On the bad side for believers in even a 'real Jesus' is the fact that there are no contemporaneous mentions of him. But nonetheless I will agree that Jesus existed. But that does not mean we need to believe the magical claims of his life.

 

[Gene2memE]

The historicity of Jesus is a long and challenging topic.

The current historical consensus is that the evidence points towards Jesus actually having existed, being born sometime between 2 and 7 AD and being executed sometime around 30 to 36 AD, with a baptism by John the Baptist around 26 to 29 AD.

Those are about the only bedrock facts that can be pulled from secondary sources outside of the Bible itself.

Its important to note that while Jesus being a real historical figure is the majority opinion of scholars, there are several strong minority opinions.

One it the multiple Jesus hypothesis, which argues that the Jesus of the bible is a composite picture of a number of itinerant preachers in the Galilee region. There may be an element of historical truth in this - Galilee at the time was RIFE with mythic cults. Roman and Jewish historians record dozens of other 'mystery cult' religions of various flavours - Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Jewish and/or a mix of these and others. There are multiple books from heavyweight biblical scholars that argue this.

The second is the Jesus as myth hypothesis, which argues that the Jesus of the bible did not exist at all, or did exist as a single individual or multiple individuals, but few or none of the events attributed to him ever occurred. Its a minority position of a minority position, but it seems to have gained quite a bit of traction in scholarly circles since the late 1990s.

Frankly, there are no known contemporary accounts of the life of Jesus and very few secondary sources written within a century of his life/death.

In addition, the earliest dates that can be argued for the cannonical gospels are 65-70 AD. So at a minimum there is a 35-40 year oral tradition - with all the caveats about accuracy and reliability that this entails.

Further to this, the earliest gospel fragments can be traced to around 125-150 AD. There are a total of four gospel fragments surviving from the 2nd century, and these total less than 50 lines, combined. There are about 50 fragments from the 3rd century, but these give no more than abut 2300 lines in total. Most of the New Testament is reconstructed from four 4th and 5th century codicies, written in Greek.

 

[The Cadet]

If he was an actual, real person that existed around the time that the Bible says he did, then why is it such a stretch to believe that the Bible writers were NOT LYING about the things Jesus said and did as is written in the scriptures?

It's not a stretch to say "I have my old pet dog buried in my backyard." Pretty standard claim. Lots of people have dogs, dogs die, lots of people bury their pets on their property. It is a stretch to say "I have my old pet fire-breathing dragon buried in my backyard, and sometimes its bones come out at night to dance." See the difference? One of these is a perfectly normal event ("There was a guy named Jesus who existed"), the other is a supernaturally-charged event that we have never observed ("He walked on water and raised the dead"). Different standards of proof, in other words.

The things Jesus did are possible, as recent discoveries in Quantum Physics are discovering...

What we're discovering is that you really don't get quantum physics, and should probably avoid watching woo documentaries. For anyone wondering about this, this guy thinks "What The Bleep Do We Know?!" is accurate and true.

Jesus existence is proven by numerous other historical documents that, for most, is enough to say they prove his existence, and if he existed, then were the people who wrote about him lying or part of some grand conspiracy, that is the only conclusion I can see...

Would you care to provide the best example you can name?

 

[Ana the Ist]

I didn't know where to put this, I created it for doubters and non-believers and I know there is plenty of them here, admins can move it if they want...

The majority of scientists and educated people agree, and say that there is enough proof, That Jesus was an actual, real person that existed and walked the earth around the time the Bible says he did...

If he was an actual, real person that existed around the time that the Bible says he did, then why is it such a stretch to believe that the Bible writers were NOT LYING about the things Jesus said and did as is written in the scriptures?

The things Jesus did are possible, as recent discoveries in Quantum Physics are discovering...

Why is this so hard to believe?

Comments?

God Bless!

I think another thing you should consider is why these stories aren't as widespread or far-fetched today. Is it because these amazing things stopped happening? Or is it because people actually have the time and ability to investigate these kinds of claims? Could it have something to do with science being able to accurately explain events that used to appear miraculous?

I'm assuming, since you're a history buff, that you know the miracles of Jesus aren't some unique story out of history that have no parallels. There are historical texts that mention other miracle workers, healers, sorcerers, magicians, prophets and all of the other supernatural occupations one could hold back in those days.

Ever hear of saint Genevieve? She had a biography written about her by an anonymous monk between 400-500AD. She cut down a cursed tree that monsters sprang from and killed many men. She magically raised ships that sank during a storm. She went around healing the blind and sick....and people who stole from her went blind as well. She was a miracle wielding, healing, demon slaying saint that some christian monk (a man who thought it was a sin to lie) wrote about just shortly after her death. Supposedly multitudes of people saw many of these things she had done.

Why do you, Neo, suppose that we don't live in a world like that anymore? I'll give you a hint...it has nothing to do with quantum physics.

 

[tinyaquatickiwi]

Neo, one of the newer discoveries in quantum mechanics is the stacking of E8's (spheres with 27 dimensions) in which the arrangement is so compact that there is as little wasted space as possible. Like stacking tennis balls except using dimensions like 6d (where point of origin is the center of a sphere within the sphere that is so small that one cannot plot x,y,z (dimensions 1,2 and 3) outside of the inner sphere. Quantum mechanics strives to achieve understanding of the building blocks of the universe with math. Quantum mechanics has absolutely nothing to do with God. In fact, the discovery of the 'god particle' (particle science) steers away from divine creation.

 

[lesliedellow]

Have you seen Tom Shadyacs documentary "I am", it also supports what I've been saying... The part how they measure and show how his thoughts affected yogurt & how it explains how everything is interconnected and how our thoughts, our "essence" our "vibe" that we give out can affect that interconnected field we call reality...

The fact that quantum mechanics seems mysterious, and is little understood by most people, has made it a favourite of every barkingly mad theory out there.

 

[expos4ever]

Why is is such a stretch to believe that the writers of North Korea's official propaganda were not lying about the things Kim Jong Ilsaid and did? The things Kim Jong Il did are possible, as recent discoveries in quantum ruminant waste are discovering...

You have a point but your example of Kim Jong Il is, I suggest, misleading.

Yes, the claims made about Jesus are indeed extraordinary and it is perfectly natural to be suspicious about the veracity of these claims. But the claims about Kim Jong Il take on their comical air at least in part due to the nature of the man himself - whereas Kim Jong is seen, and likely will continue to be seen, as a decidedly negative figure, Jesus continues to be lauded as one of the greatest human beings who has ever lived. Do not misunderstand me: I am not saying this gives we Christians a "pass" with respect to needing to explain the miracles: I am simply pointing out that your example gains at least some of its rhetorical oomph due to the wrenching contradiction between the claims about Kim Jong and his image as a buffoon.

I would say this, too, in defense of believing the Jesus stories: Jesus emerged in a setting where his contemporaries were expecting something completely different from a Messianic figure than what we see in the gospel accounts. So one could argue that if people were going to invent stories, they would have invented very different stories (for example, they would never have their Messianic figure dying on a cross). So the general principle here is this: when one encounters extraordinary claims in a setting where there is a case to be made that such claims would hard to invent given the matrix of expectations, then the likelihood the claims are true is strengthened somewhat. Of course, I am aware the gospels were written decades after the alleged events and it is therefore plausible that the authors had time to re-work their worldview and "invent" the miracle accounts accordingly.

The world remains a mysterious place with profound mysteries still before us (e.g. the origin of the universe, the phenomenology of human consciousness). So while I agree it is a "stretch" to accept the Jesus accounts, I don't think we have warrant to dismiss them so easily as I suspect many do.