The Major Problem with Calvinism...

[TheCosmicGospel]

"Those He predestined, He also called; Those He called, He also justified;" Rom 8:30

Are all the verb tenses the same in the Greek? Are they all accomplished or are they future tense?

Peace,

Cos

 

[mlqurgw]

I believe that God predestines people toward the Gospel. This is a very Lutheran approach and an important verse that refutes any double predestination.

So how does this verse show anything to support Calvinism?

Peace,

Cos

For the record I am not interested in supporting any system. I simply will do my best to proclaim truth as it is in the Scriptures. As far as 2Thess. 2:13,14 I think it is pretty obvious and clear what it means if it will be simply read as it is. Trying to twist it by making its context mean something other than what it does, as the OP did, or reading something into it as you have may serve to support a system but it isn't what it simply and clearly says.

 

[TheCosmicGospel]

For the record I am not interested in supporting any system. I simply will do my best to proclaim truth as it is in the Scriptures. As far as 2Thess. 2:13,14 I think it is pretty obvious and clear what it means if it will be simply read as it is. Trying to twist it by making its context mean something other than what it does, as the OP did, or reading something into it as you have may serve to support a system but it isn't what it simply and clearly says.

How do you read it then? Care to explain?

 

[mlqurgw]

How do you read it then? Care to explain?

Just as it reads. It means what it says and says what it means. God chose a people unto salvation through the setting apart of the Spirit and belief of the truth of the Gospel. And He called by that Gospel to the obtaining of the glory of the Lord Jesus Christ. That is what it says and that is what it means.

 

[TheCosmicGospel]

Just as it reads. It means what it says and says what it means. God chose a people unto salvation through the setting apart of the Spirit and belief of the truth of the Gospel. And He called by that Gospel to the obtaining of the glory of the Lord Jesus Christ. That is what it says and that is what it means.

Since I agree with you and you pretty much with me on the straight reading of this verse, and you said I was "twisting" it to fit a system, maybe you could explain the twisting. Or is it the Calvinist that twists it to fit in their system of TULIP which this verse does not support, as you say, in the clear reading?

Or did I step into the TULIP trap?

 

[mlqurgw]

Since I agree with you and you pretty much with me on the straight reading of this verse, and you said I was "twisting" it to fit a system, maybe you could explain the twisting. Or is it the Calvinist that twists it to fit in their system of TULIP which this verse does not support, as you say, in the clear reading?

Or did I step into the TULIP trap?

Unless I misunderstood you when you said you believe God predestines people toward the Gospel as the interpretation of that verse you have read into it something that it doesn't say. I didn't say you twisted it I said NJbeliever did. I did mistakenly call him the OP. The verse clearly teaches election unto salvation from the beginning. Understood along with many other verses it supports TULIP without question. What trap are you talking about? I don't lay traps I tell the truth of the Gospel in so far as I know it by God's grace.

 

[TheCosmicGospel]

Unless I misunderstood you when you said you believe God predestines people toward the Gospel as the interpretation of that verse you have read into it something that it doesn't say. I didn't say you twisted it I said NJbeliever did. I did mistakenly call him the OP. The verse clearly teaches election unto salvation from the beginning. Understood along with many other verses it supports TULIP without question. What trap are you talking about? I don't lay traps I tell the truth of the Gospel in so far as I know it by God's grace.

I see "God predestines people toward the Gospel" as the same as "teaches election unto salvation from the beginning." What is the difference? The trap door would be limiting the election to a few and not to all people. You are going to use it, right? I don't think the verse requires it however IMHO.

But this is your forum. God bless you all the same.

Peace,

Cos

 

[heymikey80]

Are all the verb tenses the same in the Greek? Are they all accomplished or are they future tense?

They're all aorist, essentially all treated indefinitely. In Greek they'd be presumed primarily has a whole, and thus apparently in past tense. But they're not limited to that. Aorist tense is generally meant that way because there isn't another verb form for simple past tense in Greek. But aorist isn't limited to it.

 

[mlqurgw]

I see "God predestines people toward the Gospel" as the same as "teaches election unto salvation from the beginning." What is the difference? The trap door would be limiting the election to a few and not to all people. You are going to use it, right? I don't think the verse requires it however IMHO.

But this is your forum. God bless you all the same.

Peace,

Cos

I don't limit election to only a few. The Scriptures clearly teach that the elect are as numerous as the sand of the sea and the stars of the sky an innumerable company. Yet we also know that the Scriptures does teach that the elect are a definite number chosen by the purpose and will of god apart from any forseen faith or forseen works. The passage in 2Thess. does say that those to whom Paul is writing are among the elect as believers. We also know from Paul's writing in 1Thess. that he believed they were elect and gave the reasons why he believed so in the first chapter. Now the elect have never been the majority at any time in history.

 

[AMR]

Are all the verb tenses the same in the Greek? Are they all accomplished or are they future tense?

Peace,

Cos

Proleptic aorist, meaning a use of the aorist to express a reality already accomplished...because it is completely secure. In other words it is expressing something as if it happened because it is absolutely certain that it will happen. If you have a copy of Wallace's Greek Grammar:Beyond the Basics textbook lying around, please consult page 563.

AMR

 

[Epiphoskei]

If you have a copy of Wallace's Greek Grammar:Beyond the Basics textbook lying around, please consult page 563.

Ooh, the big version. I have the abridged, and am jealous. In a loving, 10th commandment nonviolating sense, of course.

 

[TheCosmicGospel]

Proleptic aorist, meaning a use of the aorist to express a reality already accomplished...because it is completely secure. In other words it is expressing something as if it happened because it is absolutely certain that it will happen. If you have a copy of Wallace's Greek Grammar:Beyond the Basics textbook lying around, please consult page 563.

AMR

I really appreciate this. There is an aorist sense that something happened in the past but keeps happening? Or does this point us in a different direction?

Peace,

Cos

 

[Epiphoskei]

The aorist, being by nature undefined, can be used in a great number of different ways, but the aspect you are describing, the past continual action, is the special function of the imperfect tense. I'd be hesitant to say that the aorist could never be used in this way (at least without reading every word Wallace has on the tense in his book of syntax) but I seriously doubt it. That's not really what it's for.