The Magnificat -- What Can We Learn From It?

[Catholic Evangelist]

Do you have verses to show that Jesus will have his "incarnate flesh" forever???? Where ever Mary, Joseph and the apostles are, they would have the same glorified bodies as Christ had. We are raised in glorified bodies not "flesh" bodies. I guess I don't understand that statement.

Our flesh decays because of original sin. So therefore, take out the sin, and you have an eternal body. Are you saying Jesus had sin. Im not saying that we arent raised in glorified bodies. But Jesus and the immaculate Mary, being created without original sin, didnt have to die. Like Elijah and Moses, mary was assumed into heaven.

Can you show me a verse that says Jesus shed his body? I cant find one. All I can find is the part where he ascended into heaven. And since heaven is eternal, and nothing changes, I dont think Jesus shed his flesh without telling us.

 

[In Christ Forever]

Can you show me a verse that says Jesus shed his body? I cant find one. All I can find is the part where he ascended into heaven. And since heaven is eternal, and nothing changes, I dont think Jesus shed his flesh without telling us.

It also doesn't say what He looked liked when He ascended so I really don't understand your question, and if you believe that Jesus still has His "incarnate flesh", I can't even think of how to answer that. That is something new I never heard of. I was just pointing to the fact Mary has nothing to do with that. God is spirit and we must also be spirit to enter into heaven. Whatever your belief is, go with it brother.
Sorry brother.

1 corin 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


1 corin 2:9 But as it is written: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him." 10 But God has revealed [them] to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.

 

[Catholic Evangelist]

It also doesn't say what He looked liked when He ascended so I really don't understand your question, and if you believe that Jesus still has His "incarnate flesh", I can't even think of how to answer that. That is something new I never heard of. I was just pointing to the fact Mary has nothing to do with that. God is spirit and we must also be spirit to enter into heaven. Whatever your belief is, go with it brother.
Sorry brother.

Revelation makes clear that at the end of time we are getting our bodies back- we are human, not angels. WE are made to live in physical bodies. Since you are a sola scripturist, you MUST assume Jesus still has his body. He ascended WITH IT into heaven. This whole argument is ridiculous. Ive never heard this heresy before.

 

[In Christ Forever]

.

This whole argument is ridiculous. Ive never heard this heresy before.

Hmmm. I would be very carefull using the word "heretic" my friend. There are a hundred different beliefs in the bible, but I will tell you this, I believe in God the Father, Creator of All Things, The Holy Spirit, which dwells in those that believe unto the Son, And Jesus Christ His only Begotten Son, who died on the CROSS for our sins and rose again from the dead, and ascended into Heaven.
So you are calling a fellow brethren in Christ a"heretic". Strong language to use my friend just because I may disagree with you on a topic of discussion. I forgive you though.

1 corin 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know [them,] because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is [rightly] judged by no one. 16 For "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[Catholic Evangelist]

Hmmm. I would be very carefull using the word "heretic" my friend. There are a hundred different beliefs in the bible, but I will tell you this, I believe in God the Father, Creator of All Things, The Holy Spirit, which dwells in those that believe unto the Son, And Jesus Christ His only Begotten Son, who died on the CROSS for our sins and rose again from the dead, and ascended into Heaven.
So you are calling a fellow brethren in Christ a"heretic". Strong language to use my friend.

I apologize, my brother. I shouldnt have said that

peace

 

[Catholic Evangelist]

Ok, I posted a poll for your non-denominational fellows to answer. Lets see what is the accepted doctrine:

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=827835

 

[In Christ Forever]

I apologize, my brother. I shouldnt have said that

No problem brother. I have only been reading the bible for a little more than a year, and it is Truly the only Book I read. I will never comprehend it all in my lifetime and but I am just glad God came to me and opened up my eyes to it.

Peace and grace to you in our Lord Jesus.

2 samuel 7:12 " When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 "He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 "I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men.

gen 15: 3 Then Abram said, "Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!" 4 And behold, the word of the LORD [came] to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."

 

[Axion]

Stating that Christ no longer has His human body is officially a major heresy, since it denies the permanence or the reality of the Incarnation, in which Christ became man. He didn't just temporarily adopt the form of a man. (Gnostic heresy).

The Councils of the early Church, which all trinitarian Christians hold to, declare that Jesus's divine nature is hypostatically and eternally united with His human body and nature. It is thus that He remains of the line of David.

 

[BrightCandle]

If Mary had pure sinless flesh, why would she need a Saviour. The Bible doesn't say all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God,except Mary, mother of Jesus!
The Bible portrays many sinners who became saints and were then called blessed, beloved, a man after God's own heart, etc, etc. Why would not Daniel, John, Moses, David, John the Baptist, and Peter, then also qualify as having sinless flesh along with Mary? Scores of Bible characters were expecially chosen by God for a special work, but they had to confess their sins and recieve forgiveness just like anybody else.

Regarding Jesus' flesh, Hebrews 2:16 & 17 says: vs. 16 "he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham." and vs.17 "Wherefore in all things it behooved him to be made like unto his brethren. . . " Christ clothed his divinity with humanity and overcame all sin, that way not even the weakest sinner can say that I cannot overcome, because He has done it already, and has made a way for us! If Jesus had received the sinless "flesh" of an angel, or the same from Mary, it really wouldn't have qualified Him to be our Great High Priest who was "tempted in all points like as we are, yet was without sin" Heb.4:15

Brooks

 

[SumTinWong]

Like Elijah and Moses, mary was assumed into heaven.

Actually doesn't the Bible say about Moses:

Deuteronomy 31:14 "And Jehovah said unto Moses, Behold, thy days approach that thou must die: call Joshua, and present yourselves in the tent of meeting, that I may give him a charge. And Moses and Joshua went, and presented themselves in the tent of meeting."

Deuteronomy 34:5 "So Moses the servant of Jehovah died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of Jehovah."

By the way it is my opinion that Mary was not assumed into heaven.

Another note about Moses:Jud 1:9 "But Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing judgment, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."

 

[Catholic Evangelist]

Actually doesn't the Bible say about Moses:
Jud 1:9 "But Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing judgment, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."

There is no body without death.

Deuteronomy 31:14 "And Jehovah said unto Moses, Behold, thy days approach that thou must die: call Joshua, and present yourselves in the tent of meeting, that I may give him a charge. And Moses and Joshua went, and presented themselves in the tent of meeting."

Deuteronomy 34:5 "So Moses the servant of Jehovah died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of Jehovah."

By the way it is my opinion that Mary was not assumed into heaven.

Oops my mistake. But that doesnt change the fact that Elijah was assumed.

PS You can die and still be assumed

 

[SumTinWong]

Oops my mistake. But that doesnt change the fact that Elijah was assumed.

PS You can die and still be assumed

Okay Elijah was "assumed", and it is said that Enoch went to walk with the Lord. We know this because it is written down in the Bible for us to see. Enoch is very vague, just that he was a model for repentance, but Elijah was a grand story.

Can you point to me in the Bible where it tells the story of Mary being assumed?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Mary's assumption is part of our Tradition, as is the Bible you read. There is also no mention of a Trinity in the Bible, but hopefully you believe that Tradition of our Church. The fact that there is no tomb and no one has ever claimed to have one or a rumor of one should at least seem to peculiar to anyone thinking her body stayed here. We have Peter's tomb and some bones. Why no tomb of Mary?

 

[SumTinWong]

Mary's assumption is part of our Tradition, as is the Bible you read. There is also no mention of a Trinity in the Bible, but hopefully you believe that Tradition of our Church. The fact that there is no tomb and no one has ever claimed to have one or a rumor of one should at least seem to peculiar to anyone thinking her body stayed here. We have Peter's tomb and some bones. Why no tomb of Mary?

Thanks Bubba,
As far as the assumption being a tradition of your church I will say you are correct. Here is a great article on the subject for anyone who is interested.

As far as the Trinity, you are right, there is no word in the Bible that says trinity. But when reading the Bible you see three distinct Deities from the very beginning to the end. It is very easy to see that the three Deities are one Deity, by reading the scriptures. If we were to hold a council of the churches today it would be easy to reformulate what the early church saw in this manner, by using the scriptures. Tertullian says that we can know if God has done something by validating it from Scripture. Not to be able to do so invalidates any claim that a teaching has been revealed by God.

These two doctrines do not even belong in the same breath. One is verifiable and proven to be true through scriptures, the other is based on graduted theory that started in the fifth century.

 

[That guy...]

I admire both his parents (or all three lol) his mum, earthly dad and heavenly dad. They all did a wonderful job in bringing him up. I think that its funny that we always focus on mary and we rarely mention joseph. I mean I know mary was blessed so much to be chosen to give birth to Jesus but parenting is shared, father and mother, and i think we sometimes forget that.
Just a random thought lol! Nate

 

[Iollain]

Thanks Bubba,
As far as the assumption being a tradition of your church I will say you are correct. Here is a great article on the subject for anyone who is interested.

As far as the Trinity, you are right, there is no word in the Bible that says trinity. But when reading the Bible you see three distinct Deities from the very beginning to the end. It is very easy to see that the three Deities are one Deity, by reading the scriptures. If we were to hold a council of the churches today it would be easy to reformulate what the early church saw in this manner, by using the scriptures. Tertullian says that we can know if God has done something by validating it from Scripture. Not to be able to do so invalidates any claim that a teaching has been revealed by God.

These two doctrines do not even belong in the same breath. One is verifiable and proven to be true through scriptures, the other is based on graduted theory that started in the fifth century.

This is true, by reading the bible i was able to see there is a Trinity, at one time i could not see this, so i prayed and read, and i believed. I knew that others believed this but didn't see it till i studied and read.

 

[SumTinWong]

So what do I think of the Magnificat?

I think it seems quite coincidently similar to the song of Hannah in 1 Samuel 2:1-10. This song of praise expresses God's concern for the humble and weak, along with his rejection of the proud. Mary was singing praises to God for saving a sinner like herself and doing it through her womb, which is why she is forever considered blessed.

Can't get much more simple than that.

 

[Catholic Evangelist]

Saint Augustine said of the Magnificat that she "sang as a prophetess before John"

 

[SolomonVII]

There is a signature currently on Christian Forums that goes something to the effect of “What the Old Testament conceals, the New Testament reveals. Even while there is truth in this, it is also true that this relationship between the two testaments is a reciprocal one. In terms of the Magnificat, Psalm 45 reveals some of the intended meaning:

9 Daughters of kings are among your honored women;
at your right hand is the royal bride in gold of Ophir.

10 Listen, O daughter, consider and give ear:
Forget your people and your father's house.
11 The king is enthralled by your beauty;
honor him, for he is your lord.
12 The Daughter of Tyre will come with a gift, [2]
men of wealth will seek your favor.

13 All glorious is the princess within her chamber ;
her gown is interwoven with gold.
14 In embroidered garments she is led to the king;
her virgin companions follow her
and are brought to you.
15 They are led in with joy and gladness;
they enter the palace of the king.

16 Your sons will take the place of your fathers;
you will make them princes throughout the land.
17 I will perpetuate your memory through all generations;
therefore the nations will praise you for ever and ever.



While the Psalm is in its own historical context about a wedding celebration between a King and his bride, just as Isaiah’s prophecy of Immanuel foreshadows Christ, the reference between verse 17 of this psalm and the identical verse in the Mary’s Magnificat gives us a similar prohetic allusion for Mary.



The full extent of the this regal nature of Mary is further elucidated in Revelation 12:



1] And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
[2] And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
[3] And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.



Clearly, this description of the woman in revelation is a royal one, but clothed in celestial images of sun, moon and stars, the Queen is not a mere earthly figure as was the woman described in Psalms, but has become the Queen of even Heaven.



In reference to Gibson’s Passion, already referred to on this thread, both Mary and the androgynous Satan were given prominent, yet converse roles. Here too in revelation, the great serpent Satan is given an adversarial role against the woman giving birth to the Christ.. Whereas Mary gives her Son the natural love of a mother to a son, and encourages him to fulfill the awful task willed for Him by the father, it is the serpent who is the tempter and the temptress, and seves as both an abomination and a parody of Mary herself.



Because Satan plays a prominent role in Gibson’s passion, so too must Mary. This is according to scripture. Nevertheless, this in no way implies that Mary is an equal with God. Her purity and immaculate nature are befitting and even necessary for her role as celestial queen. Her nature, on the other hand, is as always and as is all our own, fully human.
As requested of the daughter of Tyre in Psalm 45, for Mary, the heritage of the house of the earthly father of lies, Satan, has become fully erased from her lineage.

 

[Axion]

The point about the reference to Moses in Jude is that it quotes an apocryphal account of the Assumption of Moses into heaven. It thereby validates that account, which appears nowhere in the OT scriptures. This parallels the Assumption of Mary, which does not appear directly in the scripture narrative either, but is nontheless a valid account.