The Magnificat -- What Can We Learn From It?

[SolomonVII]

How do you know?

Jesus assured us in scripture that this is so.

 

[SolomonVII]

Jesus was Son of God and Son of man. By submitting to His Father's terrible will, he ultimately glorified his Father. However, by always normally referring himself as the Son of man, he was in effect honoring his mother, from whom his perfected human nature has been derived. As Mary expressed the humility of her perfected human nature so well during her Magnificat, so too does Jesus humble himself before his Father's will.
Stressing the immaculate nature of Mary in effect justifies this honor that Jesus bestows upon her every time that he refers to himself as the Son of Man.

Immaculate and stainless, Mary represents the perfection of the fully human Davidic lineage. Theologically, only at the time that perfection is attained in Jesus's human geneology can the fulfilment of God's promise also be attained with the atonement of the human nature with the Divine nature in the fruit of Mary's womb, Jesus.

As the first Eve was an imperfect human being, so must the second Eve, Mary, be perfect in order for the redemptive work of the second Adam, Jesus, to be completed. As Eve's prideful belief that she knew more than God leads to man's fall from grace, so too does Mary's complete submission to God's will lead to the ultimate redemtion of fallen Adam, in the person of Jesus.

Scripturally, the fullness of grace ascribed to Mary by the angel only suggests, and does not prove, the immaculate nature of Mary. Nevertheless, theologically this immaculate nature is a very important concept. It mirrors in reverse order the genesis account of woman coming from man into the more human concept of man coming from woman. Similarily it also reverses the actions that the first Eve played in the fall of man through the opposite effect that the converse actions that this second Eve plays in initiating the coming of the second Adam, and the complete atonement so amply demonstrated by the resurrection.

 

[Iollain]

Jesus was Son of God and Son of man. By submitting to His Father's terrible will, he ultimately glorified his Father. However, by always normally referring himself as the Son of man, he was in effect honoring his mother, from whom his perfected human nature has been derived.

That is not true that Jesus was calling himself Son of man to honour his mother. He was saying this because he was refering to prophecy, as in:
Isaiah 9
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

 

[SolomonVII]

.....
Isaiah 9
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

This is exactly my point!
It would have been well within the bounds of truth for Jesus to honor Himself by calling Himself God, or Son of God, Lord of Hosts, etc. But this He never does this. Instead, he does his mother honor by describing himself with the more diminutive title of Son of Man that he received from his mother and her side of the family.

The actual title Son of Man hints at some of the titles that prophets took upon themself, such as Daniel, for example.

 

[SolomonVII]

If the Church of England is in the lineage of Apostolic succession originating with St John, and if Mary was left in the care of this apostle whom Jesus loved, do most Anglicans feel a special responsibility towards ensuring Mary continues to be blessed through the generations, as prophecied?

 

[BrightCandle]

If Mary were alive today, and could see millions of professed Christians exalting her to a position as co-redeemer with Christ, she would be shocked and dismayed. Mary was a humble human being of like passions as we are. She had the human nature of fallen Adam and Eve, not a sinless nature. Jesus was the only sinless human being that has walked this earth. Jesus was born with Adam's fallen nature as well, and any overcoming that he did was by depending on the Father, thus setting us an example for us in that we cannot do anything except by depending on Jesus. That's why John warned the early Christians to beware of those teaching "that Jesus didn't come to this earth in the flesh", in fact he called those that teach such--Antichrist (see I John 4:3).

Brooks

 

[SolomonVII]

Co-redeemer? Yikes, are there actually denominations that teach that!!
That's why I remain Catholic through. I try to abide by what Christianity has always been.
One small correction though, other than the immaculate nature of Mary. The God of Abraham and Jacob is not a God of the dead, but of the living.
Mary lives!

 

[SumTinWong]

Co-redeemer? Yikes, are there actually denominations that teach that!!

Here you go...

 

[Axion]

If Mary were alive today, and could see millions of professed Christians exalting her to a position as co-redeemer with Christ, she would be shocked and dismayed.

Mary IS alive today.

And she foresaw the honour that true Christians would always give her when she said "All generations shall call me blessed." Or when Elizabeth said to her "Blessed (exalted) are you among women."

Mary was a humble human being of like passions as we are. She had the human nature of fallen Adam and Eve, not a sinless nature.

So you are saying that Mary passed on a fallen sinful human nature to Jesus? That would make Jesus in need of redemption too!

Jesus was the only sinless human being that has walked this earth. Jesus was born with Adam's fallen nature as well, and any overcoming that he did was by depending on the Father, thus setting us an example for us in that we cannot do anything except by depending on Jesus.

You contradict yourself. You admit Jesus was sinless, but then say that he had a "fallen" (sin-disposed and tainted) nature. That is extremely erroneous. Jesus never had a sin-tainted or sinful nature. And Jesus was certainly not the only person to come into the world without Original Sin or a sinful nature.

That's why John warned the early Christians to beware of those teaching "that Jesus didn't come to this earth in the flesh", in fact he called those that teach such--Antichrist (see I John 4:3).

I think that verse has more relevance to those who deny that Jesus is truly, physically and completely the Son of Mary.

 

[BrightCandle]

Solomon:

The RCC is heading towards making Mary the co-redeemer with Jesus. The Pope already believes that she is the co-redemptress with Jesus. Mel Gibson believes this already, hence the big role that Mary had in his movie.

Axion:

When Mary said that she would be "exalted among women" did she mean that people would pray to her? Or that they would say that she had never sinned. The Bible says that all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God, including Mary!

Regarding the nature of Jesus' "flesh", let me put it this way, Jesus was born as a human, and took the body and "flesh" of the average Jewish man in his time, but He didn't need redemption because He never gave into the temptations of the "flesh" that his divinity dwelt in for 33 years. That is the good news. He overcame the sinful flesh that we each of us have! When you say that Mary and Jesus were born with a sinless flesh, what is there to overcome? And where in the Bible does it say that Mary had a sinless flesh? It's not there. She was a humble servant of the Lord, that God in His providence chose to be the human vessel to give birth to the the God man--Jesus.

Brooks

 

[Catholic Evangelist]

The RCC is heading towards making Mary the co-redeemer with Jesus. The Pope already believes that she is the co-redemptress with Jesus. Mel Gibson believes this already, hence the big role that Mary had in his movie.

I dont think you understand the official Catholic position. She is a co-redemptrix, not a co-redeemer. She is called this because only by her salvation in the form of Jesus Christ entered the world, and therefore she plays a role in salvation history. All men must give some credit to Mary for making the Crucifixtion possible, and hence she is called the "co-demptrix"

When Mary said that she would be "exalted among women" did she mean that people would pray to her? Or that they would say that she had never sinned. The Bible says that all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God, including Mary!

I am waiting for someone to prove that praying to someone+worshipping them. They are two hugely different terms, which in modern times has come to mean the same thing. It was not so in the ancient church.
Also, it must be noted that Mary is called "full of grace" by Michael the Archangel (however, many protestant bibles use the much less accurate translation "favored one"). If you are full of grace, there is no room for sin. Period. Mary, by the miracle which we call the immaculate conception, did not inherit original sin. For this reason, St Irenaeus of Lyons calls Mary the "new eve"- because like the first eve, she was created immaculately. Now, what is the purpose of mary's being immaculate? It is ultimately for the purpose of her bearing and raising the second person of the trinity. How could the Son of God inherit sinful flesh from his mother? He cant. Also, since mary was to raise the creator of the universe, sin would be an anomaly to that special bond they had.

Also, it is important to look at the historical works of some people from the early church. These writings affirm that Mary did not have pain during childbirth, which according to the bible is a consequence of original sin. Therefore, Mary did not have original sin.

The Ascension of Isaiah


"[T]he report concerning the child was noised abroad in Bethlehem. Some said, ‘The Virgin Mary has given birth before she was married two months.’ And many said, ‘She has not given birth; the midwife has not gone up to her, and we heard no cries of pain’" (Ascension of Isaiah 11 [A.D. 70]).


The Odes of Solomon



"So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies. And she labored and bore the Son, but without pain, because it did not occur without purpose. And she did not seek a midwife, because he caused her to give life. She bore as a strong man, with will . . . " (Odes of Solomon 19 [A.D. 80]).


Justin Martyr



"[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course which was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied ‘Be it done unto me according to your word’ [Luke 1:38]" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 100 [A.D. 155]).


Irenaeus



"Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, ‘Behold, O Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.’ Eve, however, was disobedient, and, when yet a virgin, she did not obey. Just as she, who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband—for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children, and it was necessary that they first come to maturity before beginning to multiply—having become disobedient, was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith" (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).

"The Lord then was manifestly coming to his own things, and was sustaining them by means of that creation that is supported by himself. He was making a recapitulation of that disobedience that had occurred in connection with a tree, through the obedience that was upon a tree [i.e., the cross]. Furthermore, the original deception was to be done away with—the deception by which that virgin Eve (who was already espoused to a man) was unhappily misled. That this was to be overturned was happily announced through means of the truth by the angel to the Virgin Mary (who was also [espoused] to a man). . . . So if Eve disobeyed God, yet Mary was persuaded to be obedient to God. In this way, the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so it is rescued by a virgin. Virginal disobedience has been balanced in the opposite scale by virginal obedience. For in the same way, the sin of the first created man received amendment by the correction of the First-Begotten" (ibid., 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).


Tertullian



"And again, lest I depart from my argumentation on the name of Adam: Why is Christ called Adam by the apostle [Paul], if as man he was not of that earthly origin? But even reason defends this conclusion, that God recovered his image and likeness by a procedure similar to that in which he had been robbed of it by the devil. It was while Eve was still a virgin that the word of the devil crept in to erect an edifice of death. Likewise through a virgin the Word of God was introduced to set up a structure of life. Thus what had been laid waste in ruin by this sex was by the same sex reestablished in salvation. Eve had believed the serpent; Mary believed Gabriel. That which the one destroyed by believing, the other, by believing, set straight" (The Flesh of Christ 17:4 [A.D. 210].

The early church fathers are unanimous. Mary did not have sin. If she did, she couldnt have bore God in her womb, and given to him her flesh. Remember, Jesus' flesh comes from Mary. Now, how could this flesh be sinful?

Regarding the nature of Jesus' "flesh", let me put it this way, Jesus was born as a human, and took the body and "flesh" of the average Jewish man in his time, but He didn't need redemption because He never gave into the temptations of the "flesh" that his divinity dwelt in for 33 years. That is the good news. He overcame the sinful flesh that we each of us have!

Wow. I have never seen a protestant go so far as to deny original sin to deny the sinlessness of Mary. Jesus didnt have sinful flesh. To say that Jesus had sinful flesh means that Jesus could possibly have fallen to sin-because if you have a sinful flesh, then that sin attaches itself to the spirit, and you get sins like hatred and envy which arent fleshly.

You seem to think that sinless flesh means no tempation. While it does probably give a much stronger resistance to it, you are tempted nonetheless. And Jesus didnt come into the world to be tempted. Thats not where we are supposed to be focusing. Since evil is the deprivation of good, and Jesus, as God, is pure good, His obedience was such that while he was tempted, he couldnt have given. And the goodness of Mary is not of herself. Since everybody's righteousness comes directly from god, mary wasnt righteous on account of herself but on account of God, who exalted her.

Also, I find it interesting that many Protestants will go to great lengths to prove that it was necessary for Jesus to be tempted. Ive seen a person say that "it wouldnt be fair if Jesus counldnt sin." This is putting yourself on a level with God. Reallistically speaking, Jesus could never have fallen to sin, but he could be tempted. The entire point of the parts in the bible when it says Satan tempted Jesus was for our instruction. Imagine the implications if Jesus fell from grace. That is impossible because he is pure grace. The point about Jesus coming to earth wasnt to see how much he could endure temptation, rather it was to found a Church and to die for our sins.

When you say that Mary and Jesus were born with a sinless flesh, what is there to overcome?

The point of God coming to earth wasnt to overcome his sin, as ive said above. It was to overcome our sins. That is pointless. Now, if Jesus had a sinful flesh, he couldnt have ascended into heaven.

And where in the Bible does it say that Mary had a sinless flesh? It's not there.

In the gospel of luke, when gabriel calls mary 'full of grace' Also, everything isnt written in the bible. For about the first 15-20 years of Christianity, people relied on oral traditions alone, not what we call the bible. In fact, it took about 360 years for the new testament to be finalized. The chances that all the apostolic oral traditions made it into the few pages of the new testament are slim. In fact, nobody placed such an emphasis on the bible until the protestant groups sprung up. The idea that church doctrine is limited to the bible is a protestant invention, and unfortunately it is an idea too well ingrained on most people's brains.

She was a humble servant of the Lord, that God in His providence chose to be the human vessel to give birth to the the God man--Jesus.

The supreme example of human stupidity is when people call their mothers "a vessel." She was his mom, not a vessel. Jesus' flesh is from Mary. Since God has a plan for the universe, and foresaw everything, he created Mary expressly for the purpose of bearing Jesus. Now, Jesus is going to have his incarnate flesh for eternity. Thats a whole long time in which he is always going to bear the mark that he was born of Mary.

 

[TSIBHOD]

Jesus assured us in scripture that this is so.

How do you know that the interpretation that you espouse is correct?

 

[Polycarp1]

This is not a thread about Catholic Doctrine regarding Mary's sinlessness; it's a question about what the Magnificat has to say. I very much appreciated Michelle's analysis of it. Can we get off the arguments about Mary's nature and look at what she said? (I thought people were sola Scriptura, not sola contra-Catholica! )

 

[Benedicta00]

Sorry Poly. I stayed out of the debate because of your request not to turn this in a Catholic vrs Protestant Mary issue.

Mary said she was blessed, why don't we all just state what we think that means and leave it at that?

 

[SumTinWong]

nevermind.

 

[Catholic Evangelist]

nevermind

Im really wondering what these "neverminds" really mean.

 

[SolomonVII]

How do you know that the interpretation that you espouse is correct?

I am in support of Polycarp on this one TSIBHOD. I would really much more appreciate how these words of Mary affect you both personally, and as a member of a church group rather than carry on with pointless one-liners.

If I have missed what you have already said on the subject, please forgive my oversight and point me to the post number where you have stated your views, and I'll have a closer look.

 

[SumTinWong]

Im really wondering what these "neverminds" really mean.

Sometimes I respond, and change my mind. Since the powers that be don't allow us to delete our own posts I choose to say nevermind.

I had posted something that might have added to teh debate on CC or NC and after that read that Polycarp1 thought we should get back to the OP, and others concurred. So out of respect for them, I said...nevermind.

Any other time you see me saying that, I have posted something and changed my mind.

 

[SolomonVII]

My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord,

my spirit rejoices in God my Savior;



Mary starts out her words with exaltation and glorification of God .It is important to note that for Mary even, God is her savior as well



. For Hebrews, the remembrance of God delivering their ancestors from the slavery of Egypt is included in the first commandment. Salvation is not just personal in terms of individual sin, but is even primarily a thanksgiving for this great event. For Christians of course, this is just a foreshadowing of things to come.



for he has looked with favor on his lowly servant.

From this day all generations will call me blessed:



It is God himself that has looked with favor upon his lowly servant, Mary. Mary in these words does not exalt herself, just as Jesus does not exalt himself. Rather it is God that looks upon to handmaiden, and suffering servant both. Only in those Christians traditions that have continually honored Mary throughout the ages has the prophecy of the generations calling Mary blessed been fulfilled.

Calling Mary blessed does not imply that she is more that a lowly servant, fully human as are we all. But precisely because she recognizes who she is, God exalts her.



the Almighty has done great things for me,

and holy is his Name.



Indeed, the Almighty has done great things for Mary. Mary thanks Him through glorifying his Name.



He has mercy on those who fear him

in every generation.

He has shown the strength of his arm,

he has scattered the proud in their conceit.

He has cast down the mighty from their thrones,

and has lifted up the lowly.



As a confirmation of God’s unconditional love, these verses reveal that God loves us not for what we have achieved in life, but because of who we are. The proud and the powerful have not yet learnt this lesson, but God will teach them proper fear and respect.



He has filled the hungry with good things,

and the rich he has sent away empty.



These words foreshadow the feast of the Eucharist. They also foreshadow our present age in which we, the rich nations, are too filled with material goods to any longer hunger for the Bread and the Wine that fulfills.



He has come to the help of his servant Israel,

for he has remembered his promise of mercy,

The promise he made to our fathers,

to Abraham and his children forever.





Whereas Mary begins the Magnificat by referring to herself as the lowly servant, and Jesus understands himself to be the Suffering Servant of Isaiah, in these verses Mary now brings up the whole of Israel as God’s servant. Herein lies a need for discernment. Who is Israel? At times, Israel is the name of the patriarch Jacob, at times Israel refers to the Hebrew nation, at times to God’s first-born Son, and, for Christians, to the whole of the Church. Furthermore, in Hosea, Israel is described the God’s bride.

In the story of Israel is told the story of redemption, and the atonement of man and God. In Jesus, this at-one-ment with God is achieved. Not Mary, but Jesus alone is fully human and fully divine. Mary, on the other hand is fully human, and for Catholics at least, perfectly human. (I’ll leave it to Catholics more learned than I to correct me if I misunderstand the Immaculate Conception to not imply this).

Within Israel in all his (her) rich tradition, God’s plan of atonement is accomplished. His promise is fulfilled, eternally and forever.

 

[In Christ Forever]

The supreme example of human stupidity is when people call their mothers "a vessel." She was his mom, not a vessel. Jesus' flesh is from Mary. Since God has a plan for the universe, and foresaw everything, he created Mary expressly for the purpose of bearing Jesus. Now, Jesus is going to have his incarnate flesh for eternity. Thats a whole long time in which he is always going to bear the mark that he was born of Mary.

"Bear the mark"? Do you have verses to show that Jesus will have his "incarnate flesh" forever????
We are raised in glorified bodies not "flesh" bodies. I guess I don't understand that statement. I never think about Mary much when reading the bible, just Christ and God as there is no other name by which we can be saved, Jesus Christ our Lord. God bless.

reve 1:13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands [One] like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair [were] white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet [were] like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many water

1 corin 15:50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.


1 John 3:1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.