The Magnificat -- What Can We Learn From It?

[SumTinWong]

I don’t hold to any personal truths the bible teaches us but to the objective truth is teaches, so *my* view is one and the same.

In English please?

 

[Benedicta00]

In English please?

That I tend not to self interpret scripture and derive any personal truths from it. I believe that is what the verse teaches us (the IC) and that is an objective opinion, not a personal truth.

 

[ksen]

I'm wondering what insights we can gain from this -- and in particular those from non-Mary-emphasizing traditions are asked to comment on what stands out to them in it.

I love the part where Mary talks about God regarding her low estate. It reminds me of how God has regarded my low estate as well and has reached out in His mercy and saved me based on nothing else than His own goodness.

What an awesome God we have!

 

[SumTinWong]

That I tend not to self interpret scripture and derive any personal truths from it. I believe that is what the verse teaches us (the IC) and that is an objective opinion, not a personal truth.

I see, so when you read the Bible you read it through the lense of the CC teachings, rather than for what it actually says or in this case does not say?

 

[Oblio]

rather than for what it actually says or in this case does not say?

I think she means rather than what individuals believe it says or does not say.

 

[Benedicta00]

I see, so when you read the Bible you read it through the lense of the CC teachings, rather than for what it actually says or in this case does not say?

You have set up a false premise here assuming the CC teachings are somehow different from what scripture says. It is because it isn't different is why I don’t have to self interpret. .

 

[Axion]

46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Mary continuously praises, thinks upon and rejoices in God. He is her saviour in that He has already saved her, even before the birth of Jesus. This correlates to the "Fullness of Grace" seen in her by the angel.

48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

Mary is humble and thankful to God for His favour. However she knows prophetically that from now on everything has changed and that she herself will be honoured by all generations for all time to come.

49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.

Mary praises God for his great favours and graces to her. She emphasizes His complete holiness.

50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.

Mary teaches that it is those who honour and obey God who will be in receipt of His mercy in all generations.

51 He hath showed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts. 52 He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree. 53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away. 54 He hath holpen his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy; 55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.

Mary gives thanks for the historic mercies of God to Israel, emphasising His love and protection for the humble and meek over the proud, rich and powerful. God actively works for the lowly, and humbles the proud and despotic. She recalls the past as a proof of His continued love in the future .

 

[SolomonVII]

Oblio is right. It is not backwards. He inherited much from His mother, and, of course, she raised Him, so she taught Him much also.

What better way to honor one's mother than to become like her, as Jesus did!
In the verses of the OP are descriptions of what Mary valued- glorification of God above all else, humility, care for the poor and those in need. These are the traits that Mary passed on to Jesus through the usual combination of nature and nurture typical of all human beings.
It is probably fair to say that Jesus became the type of person that he was because Mary was the type of person that she was.

 

[SumTinWong]

You have set up a false premise here assuming the CC teachings are somehow different from what scripture says. It is because it isn't different is why I don’t have to self interpret. .

Actually you said that you tend hold to the "objective truth" of scripture, which is colored by the teachings of your church. The scriptures themselves do not speak at all of the IC, so therefore your objectivity is colored by a taught dogma of the church. The only way anyone can come to the realization, or the understanding that this is what Mary meant in this passage is if you are reading it with an interpretation of the church in mind.

 

[Benedicta00]

Actually you said that you tend hold to the "objective truth" of scripture, which is colored by the teachings of your church. The scriptures themselves do not speak at all of the IC, so therefore your objectivity is colored by a taught dogma of the church. The only way anyone can come to the realization, or the understanding that this is what Mary meant in this passage is if you are reading it with an interpretation of the church in mind.

I am reading it through the lens of all of God’s word, though apostolic tradition, and it is your opinion, because you lack that tradition and limit yourself to scripture only, why you believe it is not speaking of the IC. Again, you make an assumption because you lack understanding of the Catholic Church, that the Church distorts the scriptures and I really do not appreciate that insinuation because it is simply not true.

 

[SumTinWong]

I am reading it through the lens of all of God’s word, though apostolic tradition, and it is your opinion, because you lack that tradition and limit yourself to scripture only, why you believe it is not speaking of the IC. Again, you make an assumption because you lack understanding of the Catholic Church, that the Church distorts the scriptures and I really do not appreciate that insinuation because it is simply not true.

I am not making any assumptions as I do understand the Catholic Church, and I disagree with its teachings on this matter. I never said that the church distorts the scriptures. I said the church adds to them its own interpretation, with "traditions" and what not.

Obviously since I am not a Catholic it goes without saying that I do not factor in any of these "outside" influences to the Bible. That doesn't mean I do not know what they are, it just means I do not agree with them, and therefore do not use them in the same light as you do.

By the way if this is going to become another NC vs CC, lets just drop it. I do't care enough about the subject to spend much more time on it. this subject is a non factor for me. Period.

 

[Benedicta00]

Your assumptions are false because you assume that tradition is outside of God's word and it's not, it is God’s word (the deposit of faith that Christ gave to us handed down through His apostles) and from that, we have the scriptures. The scriptures are the written down part of the deposit of faith that Christ left with us. The Church adds nothing to God’s word, we have the fullness of His word.

 

[Axion]

Actually you said that you tend hold to the "objective truth" of scripture, which is colored by the teachings of your church. The scriptures themselves do not speak at all of the IC, so therefore your objectivity is colored by a taught dogma of the church. The only way anyone can come to the realization, or the understanding that this is what Mary meant in this passage is if you are reading it with an interpretation of the church in mind.

No. For you ignore these verses:

Luke 2.47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

How is God Mary's Saviour, when Jesus has not yet been born yet, let alone died for our redemption on the cross? How has Mary been saved (cleansed of sin) before Christ's sacrifice has atoned for the sins of men?? These are questions that some people just don't ask.

Clearly Mary's redemption has been special. It is a redemption, an act of Grace that was specially for her, before the birth of the Church. That is the only possible interpretation of this passage.


Luke 1.
26 In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town of Galilee called Nazareth. He was sent 27 to a young virgin who was betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the family of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.

28 The angel came to her and said, “Rejoice, full of grace, the Lord is with you.”

Here we have the angel entitling Mary "Full of Grace". NB This is the correct translation of the Greek Kecharitomene, (not "highly-favoured").

To be Full of Grace is to be without sin, it being the Grace of God that saves us. Whereby we can see that Mary was made and remained sinless (immaculate) from an unknown time before the angel appeared to her, and afterwards.

The Church teaches that Mary's Immaculate state was lifelong (from conception), both from tradition, and because this was the most perfect and fitting way for God to purify the Mother of His Son from sin. For as Eve was created free from Original Sin, so the 2nd Eve (Mary), Mother of God the Son, and from whom He took His flesh and nature, could hardly be any less favoured.

 

[Polycarp1]

We mistake man's temporality for God's eternity. God is Mary's Savior, and ours, even before He makes the Atonement on the Cross.

 

[SumTinWong]

Your assumptions are false because you assume that tradition is outside of God's word and it's not, it is God’s word (the deposit of faith that Christ gave to us handed down through His apostles) and from that, we have the scriptures. The scriptures are the written down part of the deposit of faith that Christ left with us. The Church adds nothing to God’s word, we have the fullness of His word.

The scriptures that were handed down throught the apostles, we have right here, and none of those scriptures handed down by the apostles give any light to what it is you are saying. In order to see/say/assert what you see/say/assert you have to look at it through the tradition laid down by the apostles (the CC assertion).

Didn't I just say I did not want to be involved in an RC vs NC debate? I know what you think and believe about your faith, and you know because of my religious affiliation to the baptist faith that I do not agree with it. You feel that the church has the fullness of the faith which in itself means that I do not because I reject it. So what reasons are you giving me to ever want to try and discuss something of this nature with you?

 

[SolomonVII]

Well, Michelle, *I* call her blessed for her humility and willingness to do what God asked of her, regardless of the consequences -- and I neither affirm nor deny the IC -- it's something that has some historical basis and logic but is, quite frankly, something between her and God, not my business nor a doctrine I need to believe.

But I think that the rest of us owe you Catholics and the Orthodox a word of thanks for "calling her blessed" through dozens of generations when we were failing to honor that prophecy -- in overreacting to the medieval over-focus on Mary.
...

Even if it may be true that medieval Christians were overly passionate in their focus on Mary, time has a way of correcting any misplaced zeal. On the other hand any over-reaction against this medieval form of Christianity has apparently only abated into a total lack of passion and zeal over the Magnificat, and other traditions of Mary. Outside of churches with some remnant of a Marion tradition, any prophecy traditionally attributed to Mary has become depersonalized and heavily symbolized, much as the Gnostics once depersonalized the corporal Christ.

From the Magnificat of Mary, through to the appearance of the resurrected Jesus first to women, the New Testament has honored women in their traditonal lesser roles in such a way that the least have become truly become the greatest.

Even today, the core of believers of most churches would be women, not so much in the position of teacher, pastor or leader, but simply as believers and witnesses. Practically speaking, the reasons churches are still alive today is not so much due to the belief of men, but because the belief of women. As often as not, in the church and in the family, it is women who are the arc ensuring the safety of the faith.

Seldom even mentioned in the New Testament as compared to the apostles, yet not only has Mary become blessed and honored to a greater degree than any apostle, but the women among her become blessed as well.

 

[Lynn73]

Look at what Mary says after she says God is her savior, “He who is mighty has done great things to me and holy is His name., from here forward all generations shall cal me blessed.” What do you think she was talking about f it was not the Immaculate Conception?

Just what it says..blessed. She's blessed in that God used her to bring Christ into the world, yes, but I've never read that and gotten Immaculate Conception from it at all. One can read it into the passage, I suppose, but it's not clearly revealed anywhere that she was born without original sin. But, of course, we've all been over this before.

The main thing of her statement that stand out to me is "my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior." And her humbleness in accepting what God says by saying "be it unto me according to thy word.

 

[Axion]

We mistake man's temporality for God's eternity. God is Mary's Savior, and ours, even before He makes the Atonement on the Cross.

Indeed. That is the Catholic teaching. My point is that this is a special and apparently unque privelege of the Virgin Mary. Catholics call this privelege of extra-temporal salvation and purification, the Immaculate Conception.

 

[Iollain]

The Magnificat

46 And Mary said:
"(53) My soul (54) exalts the Lord,

47
And (55) my spirit has rejoiced in (56) God my Savior.
48
"For (57) He has had regard for the humble state of His bondslave;
For behold, from this time on all generations will count me (58) blessed.
49
"For the Mighty One has done great things for me;
And holy is His name.
50
"(59) AND HIS MERCY IS UPON GENERATION AFTER GENERATION
TOWARD THOSE WHO FEAR HIM.
51
"(60) He has done mighty deeds with His arm;
He has scattered those who were proud in the thoughts of their heart.
52
"He has brought down rulers from their thrones,
And has (61) exalted those who were humble.
53
"(62) HE HAS FILLED THE HUNGRY WITH GOOD THINGS;
And sent away the rich empty-handed.
54
"He has given help to Israel His servant,
In remembrance of His mercy,
55
(63) As He spoke to our fathers,
(64) To Abraham and his descendants forever."

She knows she is carrying the Messiah, and she is full of praise for God who is fulfilling the prophecy He made to Abraham. She is much surprised that He would pick a poor girl as herself, (i imagine that the Jews were thinking the Messiah would come into a rich and high powered family). She is excited and happy that she is to be the mother of the Messiah, the deliverer and Saviour, son of Israel. She goes to the family of John the Baptist, i would say that other than her and Joseph, she can talk to these people and they will believe her because they are part of what is going on, and a witness to it all. She is full of the Holy Spirit........literally hehe, talking about a lot of prophecy.

 

[TSIBHOD]

The Church adds nothing to God’s word, we have the fullness of His word.

How do you know?