The 'Macro-Micro' thing....again..

[PsychoSarah]

eternality of hell is not a part of this thread. Otherwise I would debate you on this very issue. Secondly you said "version" while the original hebrew writtings would not be considered a "version" or even a "translation." the original writtings are just that "the originals." But the only problem is that papyrus is perishable. Not as much as writing in wax or other means of writting but it did decay. I believe it was imported from egypt as is a pain to make. So it would be the most expensive media at the time for writting scrolls. I agree the original dialogue is the perfect word of God and the translations are guided by the Holy Spirit however. If God wrote the original on papyrus He wouldn't allow it to perish if He didn't plan on making a preservation commitment to follow the copies down through history. I believe He Has preserved His word through the scribes.

If that were the case, don't you think that whether or not the Trinity was valid wouldn't be in question? If god doesn't prevent people from having clashing interpretations, why would god prevent other abuses or mistakes in scripture?

 

[createdtoworship]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucy_(Australopithecus) look to the right and you can see that we have more than enough of Lucy's hip to know how this creature walked. Those bones are too short and wide, and the opening where the leg connects to the hip is also positioned for upright walking. Creatures with these kinds of hips not only can walk upright, but it strains their bodies not to do so. Also, while Lucy's feet might not have been perfectly like humans, that is partly the point; if this is a part of the human evolutionary timeline, Lucy should have some human and some nonhuman traits, which it does.

thank you for a logical response to the challenge to give evidence. However even in the pictures the size of the hip does not create balance in bipedalism, it's the iliac blades and their orientation to the Hip and gluteus muscles.

regarding lucy, Ken Ham and the Creation Museum state the
"iliac bones were oriented as a chimpanzee’s"

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v7/n1/lucy-abomination

if this is true and I believe it to be so, the bipedalism was temporary and not in any way an overide feature of aboreal life. I mean I can train a small dog to walk on two's does that mean it's a biped? No it simply means as with A. Afarensis that walking upright is harder than it looks.

 

[createdtoworship]

1. Some glaring omissions from the corrupted 'newer' Bible versions and their corrupt Manuscripts​

This whole sordid matter should give new urgency to the warning in the last few verses of the Bible:

Rev 22:18-19
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. (KJV)
​

As well as the Old Testament warning:

Deut 4:2
2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. (KJV)
​

Look how the NIV rendered that verse:

Deut 4:2
2 Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you. (NIV)

*Can you see the difference here, the lessoning of the power of the statement, and the de-emphases of not changing the written Word of God? In the NIV version of the verse, it seems to the reader that it is making two separate independent statements: 1): Don't add or subtract from the things that God commanded; and 2): Follow God's commands. But in the KJV we see that we are not to remove or add anything from God's Word so that in having the whole Word of God we can know to keep all the commandments of God. There is a difference.
​

Stick to your Authorized King James Version Bible (KJV), it has been the standard workhorse of Scriptures for four-hundred years, and it will be the standard till the end! Don't sacrifice accuracy for 'easier to understand' newer versions, for what good is understanding, if what you are understanding is not completely accurate?
The newer versions, with their critical omissions are becoming more and more, with each newest version

thank you for the exhortations however I like my NKJV, although I wish they would do one last update to it. It's been 20 years or so. But seeing that the 1611 had about 5 revisions that added and took away words from the scripture I wouldn't be too worried about the revelation scriptures regarding "adding to the word." I do believe that some translations are definately not good, such as NIV and TNIV and the MESSAGE and numerous other paraphrases that are just that, paraphrases, not translations.

 

[createdtoworship]

If that were the case, don't you think that whether or not the Trinity was valid wouldn't be in question? If god doesn't prevent people from having clashing interpretations, why would god prevent other abuses or mistakes in scripture?

well thats another issue but it's funny you bring that up. One of the verses that is notoriously missing from the Modern Translations is "1 John 5:7, or the johannian comma"

this is one of many verses that strictly declare the trinity (and in one verse).

but again this is another issue.

 

[PsychoSarah]

thank you for a logical response to the challenge to give evidence. However even in the pictures the size of the hip does not create balance in bipedalism, it's the iliac blades and their orientation to the Hip and gluteus muscles.

regarding lucy, Ken Ham and the Creation Museum state the
"iliac bones were oriented as a chimpanzee’s"

Lucy, the Knuckle-walking “abomination”? - Answers in Genesis

if this is true and I believe it to be so, the bipedalism was temporary and not in any way an overide feature of aboreal life. I mean I can train a small dog to walk on two's does that mean it's a biped? No it simply means as with A. Afarensis that walking upright is harder than it looks.

She would have had perhaps an awkward walk, this is a transition creature here. It is possible that Lucy spent time both knuckle walking and walking upright, though the bones suggest upright would have probably been favored. However, those bones were not oriented as a chimpanzees; they aren't long enough to support the body well in that position with those joints.

It isn't the size of the hip suggesting balance to bipedalism; it is the size and shape of the hip making knuckle walking unlikely and bipedalism possible. Heck, technically a human could try to knuckle walk, but it sure wouldn't be efficient or comfortable.

 

[PsychoSarah]

well thats another issue but it's funny you bring that up. One of the verses that is notoriously missing from the Modern Translations is "1 John 5:7, or the johannian comma"

this is one of many verses that strictly declare the trinity (and in one verse).

but again this is another issue.

What? If it directly addresses the issue, why isn't it kept in there? Usually when stuff is removed from cannon, it is because it is legitimately nuts (book of Lilith comes to mind, ugh, I wish I hadn't read that) or because it is very politically advantageous to remove it, but I don't see how that would be either.

 

[Riberra]

What? If it directly addresses the issue, why isn't it kept in there? Usually when stuff is removed from cannon, it is because it is legitimately nuts

Hmm ,lets see who(se) are (is)behind Adulterations (corruption) in the Newer Bible Versions (NKJV ,NIV, NASB,...)
The 666 Logo on the cover of the NKJV Bible, and the Masonic symbol on the Catholic Bible

 

[PsychoSarah]

Hmm ,lets see who(se) are (is)behind Adulterations in the Newer Bible Versions (NKJV ,NIV, NASB,...)
The 666 Logo on the cover of the NKJV Bible, and the Masonic symbol on the Catholic Bible

Now this is starting to sound a bit... conspiracy theory.

 

[createdtoworship]

What? If it directly addresses the issue, why isn't it kept in there? Usually when stuff is removed from cannon, it is because it is legitimately nuts (book of Lilith comes to mind, ugh, I wish I hadn't read that) or because it is very politically advantageous to remove it, but I don't see how that would be either.

well, I really don't know why it was removed. But there are all kinds of conspiracy theories out there about it. Many solid sources say it was spurious and added originally, but I really don't know. I currently hold to the fact that is should be there. (due to a book I tracked down and found:

A History of the Debate Over 1 John 5:7-8: Michael Maynard: 9781886971059: Amazon.com: Books)

 

[PsychoSarah]

well, I really don't know why it was removed. But there are all kinds of conspiracy theories out there about it. Many solid sources say it was spurious and added originally, but I really don't know. I currently hold to the fact that is should be there. (due to a book I tracked down and found:

A History of the Debate Over 1 John 5:7-8: Michael Maynard: 9781886971059: Amazon.com: Books)

Hey, if it could solve some of the religion related bickering, I fully support putting it back in there.

 

[Riberra]

well, I really don't know why it was removed.

The reason is obvious ... see explanation below.
Just read the original KJV and the new version.
1st Jn 5:7-8:

KJV
(King James Version)

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. (KJV)


-------------------
Corrupted text
NIV
(New International Version)

7 For there are three that testify:
8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. (NIV)
*(And similarly in all newer Bible versions)
--------------------
Corrupted text
NASB
(New American Standard Bible)

7 And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth.
8 For there are three that bear witness, the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.(NASB)

1st John 5:7 (Illustrated above) is the single most powerful witness of the Trinity (God, Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit). the Corrupt Manuscripts (Sinaiticus,Vaticanus) used in the newer Bible versions omit the key words.
They simply omitted the key words supporting the Holy Trinity! The newer versions say it doesn't belong, but it is the single most powerful witness of the Trinity. But do these powerful and key words belong in the text? You bet they do, let's look at some authorities for those key words:

Latin Manuscripts: There are between 10,000 extant (existing) Latin manuscripts, 29 of them don't have it, all the rest of the 10,000 of them that contain the verse do have the key words.
Sirac Version: The Sirac version also has them.
German Bibles: As well, all pre-Luther German Bibles have the verse. Martin Luther then omitted it as he based his Bible on Erasmus' corrupt 2nd edition manuscript which does not contain the verse. Two years after that, the German Bibles put it back in. Then in 1956 to the present time it has once again been omitted.
Greek Texts: There are only six to eight Texts out of the some 5,000 extant Greek Texts that do not have the key words in the verse!
​

Perhaps one of the most telling proofs that the verse was included in the original manuscripts is evidenced by the writings of one of the early Church Fathers - Cyprian, who in his writing: "Treatises" found in The Ante-Nicene Christian Library (5:423): included a quote from 1st John 5:7. In the verse quote from Cyprian he writes: "...and again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy spirit, 'And these three are one' "
Cyprian died in A.D. 258, some one-hundred years before the compilation of the corrupt Sinaiticus and Vaticanus manuscripts from which all the newer Bible versions are based upon. And his (Cyprian's) quote of 1st John 5:7 supports the King James Bible version's inclusion of the key words and opposes the newer Bible versions in their omission of them!
Four of the strongest and most point-blank references to the Holy Trinity (Triune Godhead) in the New Testament are omitted in the newer Bible versions: The one we have just studied in depth and the below three. Look what they have done to them, it would seem from the newer Bible versions that there is no longer a Holy Trinity - God forbid!
more
http://www.biblestudysite.com/adulter.htm#2

 

[PsychoSarah]

I read the above thing, and if that is really the reasoning behind it, *epic face smack*

 

[Riberra]

I read the above thing, and if that is really the reasoning behind it, *epic face smack*

And your explanation about why
1st Jn 5:7-8: -Holy Trinity verse- in
the original KJV was replaced by something else in the new bible versions is ???
--------------------------------
1st Jn 5:7-8:

KJV
(King James Version)

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. (KJV)

 

[biggles53]

So....I gather that no-one has yet been able to find a biological mechanism that stands in the way of a progression from so-called 'micro' to 'macro' evolution...

Given the number of pages that have elapsed, I'm going to make the call that there AREN'T any such mechanisms that the deniers can identify...

Thank you linesmen, thank you ball boys.......

 

[Loudmouth]

you have any evidence for the hip bones existence most of lucy, or A.afarensis are incomplete and none have a hip bone like a human.

Assuming that Lucy was bilaterally symmetrical, the pelvis is nearly complete. You will notice that the blades of the pelvis are on the outside, and that the pelvis is short and broad as it is with humans. Compare this to a chimp and human pelvis:

human:

Chimp:

As you can see, the chimp pelvis (as well as gorillas and orangutans) is narrow, tall, and the blads of the pelvis are rotated towards the back.

Lucy's pelvis is human-like. There is no doubting it.

It matters not that there was a anglud femur.

It most certainly matters. Inward angled femurs is what humans have, and it is an adaptation for bipedal walking. Gorillas, chimps, and orangutans lack this adaptation. This makes Lucy's femurs human-like, and adapted for upright walking.

Secondly, the angle could simply mean that it knuckle walked.

Then why don't chimps, gorillas, or orangutans have inward angled femurs while humans and Australopithecines do?

There is no evidence of bipedal motion with these creatures, simply a more advanced knuckle walking.

The evidence is the pelvis and femur, both of which have adaptations for upright walking.

 

[Loudmouth]

avoiding peer review and being rejected by peer review is another story. I have heard stories of peer reviews being rejected mainly because it has Creationist or ID content.

Stories? Really? Why don't these authors show everyone the rejection letters, as well as the papers they sent in. Where are the papers these authors wrote on Lucy that got rejected?

This has forced many like ken ham and others to start their own peer review boards.

What research are they doing that requires publications?

for one, the scientific method doesn't prove facts, at the best it proves a specific natural law in hypothesis.

secondly even if it were a fact there would be numerous examples of pictures, dialogues and scientists claiming that Lucy's hip were humanized. And you have to date provided none of the above.

Any comparison of Australopithecine fossils with modern species makes it more than obvious.

 

[createdtoworship]

Stories? Really? Why don't these authors show everyone the rejection letters, as well as the papers they sent in. Where are the papers these authors wrote on Lucy that got rejected?

Robert Gentry formerly of oakridge labratories specializing in nuclear waste was excommunicated from the peer review network after being found a creationist. I believe this was one of his last works containing peer review (Creation's Tiny Mystery: Robert V. Gentry: 9780961675332: Amazon.com: Books) but I am not sure. My source had lunch with him regarding the prejudices of the peer review networks.

here again robert gentry (creationist) censored for posting these documents (Orion Foundation: Ten Censored Papers) which are legitimate science to a cornell university database, later suing for the removal (free speech of scientific theory- IF it is in fact science based).... In 2001 sued the los alamos @ cornell labratories for censorship of true scientific views. I mean this is rediculous, just because one isn't a uniformitarian, humanist, or evolutionist should they be silenced?

sad indeed, science is science regardless of race, ethnicity or religion.

more info here:
Dr. Robert V. Gentry, Nuclear Physicist Earth Science Associates (his web site)

 

[createdtoworship]

the iliac bones are what is in question and it's orientation to the gleuteus.

if walking was this awkward, then most likely it wasn't done frequently if ever.

 

[Loudmouth]

Robert Gentry formerly of oakridge labratories specializing in nuclear waste was excommunicated from the peer review network after being found a creationist.

Review networks do not excommunicate. You are projecting again. Also, I asked for papers that were rejected, and you have yet to produce a single one.

I believe this was one of his last works containing peer review (Creation's Tiny Mystery: Robert V. Gentry: 9780961675332: Amazon.com: Books) but I am not sure. My source had lunch with him regarding the prejudices of the peer review networks.

That's a book, not a peer reviewable research paper. Do you even know what a scientific peer reviewed publication is? They differ quite a bit from books.

here again robert gentry (creationist) censored for posting these documents (Orion Foundation: Ten Censored Papers) which are legitimate science to a cornell university database, later suing for the removal (free speech of scientific theory- IF it is in fact science based).... In 2001 sued the los alamos @ cornell labratories for censorship of true scientific views. I mean this is rediculous, just because one isn't a uniformitarian, humanist, or evolutionist should they be silenced?

All overblown rantings of someone trying to play the fake martyr, as usual.

Again, I am asking for examples of papers that are turned away. You still have not shown me a single one.

Also, you still won't deal with the fossil evidence from hominids, which I posted.

 

[Loudmouth]

the iliac bones are what is in question and it's orientation to the gleuteus.

Are you really going to pretend that Lucy's pelvis does not look human like compared to other apes?