The 'Macro-Micro' thing....again..

[loveofourlord]

What came first, the egg or the chicken?

The ancestors of chickens, at no point did a non chicken lay a egg that had a chicken in it, thats not how evolution happenes. If you could go back from a modern chicken back to ancient dinosaur ancestors what you would get is a gradual progression over time, but at no point would any generation give birth to something extremly different. If you looked back a million years to a ancestor it be a none chicken, but if you looked gradually, while you end up there, you never see anything give birth to what wasn't it's own species.

 

[Smidlee]

The ancestors of chickens, at no point did a non chicken lay a egg that had a chicken in it, thats not how evolution happenes. If you could go back from a modern chicken back to ancient dinosaur ancestors what you would get is a gradual progression over time, but at no point would any generation give birth to something extremly different. If you looked back a million years to a ancestor it be a none chicken, but if you looked gradually, while you end up there, you never see anything give birth to what wasn't it's own species.

Nice theory accept Darwin's tree of life is upside down. The biggest difference in body plans suddenly popped into existence called the Cambrian Explosion. ( noted that's based on evolutionist assumptions) Also Stasis is the word to describe the fossil record.

 

[Riberra]

Funnny how this works well within evolution.

Lets see, leathery legs closer to that of reptiles as evolution would predict. Check

Wikipedia say rather
otter-footed mammal

What about it does anything to disprove evolution?

I said that it fitted Sarah's request of a mix and mash creature which *may*disprove evolution by Sarah "own standard" ...but i am not saying that it really disprove evolution.

 

[loveofourlord]

The author is not saying that the animal described to Job by God which have the characteristic of((Apatosaurus)existed in the time of Job.
Source:
When was The beginning

(Apatosaurus) has a tail like the mighty Cedar tree, the Brontosaurus' tail grew to some thirty feet long, weighing over five tons. You've all seen the assembled skeletal remains in the museums. The Behemoth, with the description from God in the Scripture:

Job 40:15-2415 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.
16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.
17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.

18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.
19 He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.
20 Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play.
21 He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens.
22 The shady trees cover him with their shadow; the willows of the brook compass him about.
23 Behold, he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth.
24 He taketh it with his eyes: his nose pierceth through snares. (KJV)
​

Explanation and description of Job 40:15-24. Below, in verse number:

• 15, he was created in the first earth age, when God made the souls of man.
• 16, it describes a large muscular body.
• 17, it describes a tail like a Cedar tree; long and mighty.
• 17, the "sinues of his stones" are stout strong legs.
  
• 18, his bones are very strong and solid, large bone is strong.
• 19, he is chief of all of God's kingdom, he is the mightiest of all animals (has no natural predator).
• 20, they climb into the mountains.
• 23, he doesn't have to be in fear of predators at the watering hole.
• 23, when he drinks, he drinks allot, as though he could drink up the river Jordan.
• 24, nothing can snare (trap) him, he is the chief of all creatures (see verse 19), and even his very nose is larger and more powerful than any trap that could be laid for him.

First off, no where in job does it say the tail was like a ceder, please don't spread missinformation. It MOVE like a ceder, it's not a description of it's shape, but how it moves.

Second stones most lilkly is e euphamism for...sex organs.

Actually it says his nose pierces THROUGH snares, AKA a horn like that of a rhinocerous or such.

And apatasaurus had predators, that of other predators and such, most likly large therapods.

He lies within reeds and such, doesn't describe apatasaurus's, they were unlikly to spend much time in the water, as that under current understanding of sauropods would be rather dangerous as they arn't fully wram blooded, and were some where more between warm and cold blooded as a animal that large would overheat even with water if fully warm blooded.

 

[loveofourlord]

Wikipedia say rather
otter-footed mammal


I said that it fitted Sarah's request of a mix and mash creature which *may*disprove evolution by Sarah "own standard" ...but i am not saying that it really disprove evolution.

*laughs* Oops :> I will fix that, I meant leathery EGGS :>

And ahhhh okay my bad :> Sorry it's just thats a common attempt to call it a chimera so figured I nip it in the bud when I had a chance.

 

[loveofourlord]

Nice theory accept Darwin's tree of life is upside down. The biggest difference in body plans suddenly popped into existence called the Cambrian Explosion. ( noted that's based on evolutionist assumptions) Also Stasis is the word to describe the fossil record.

*face palms* if you don't understand what something says, don't repeat it. the most BASIC body plans show up there, bilateral and such, such as most species on the planet have, but there are no higher taxanomic groups, all that show up there are very basic fish, arthropods and so on. No mamals, no dinosaurs both ancient and modern, no lizards, no amphibians and so on. Also might want to update your information more then the last 50 years, we have many fossils that date farther back then cambrian explosion, while yes alot of new forms show up there it's a few hundred million year period saying it's a explosion is like saying, "All modern dinosaurs and mamals exploded on the planet in just the last 60 million years."

 

[Smidlee]

*face palms* if you don't understand what something says, don't repeat it. the most BASIC body plans show up there, bilateral and such, such as most species on the planet have, but there are no higher taxanomic groups, all that show up there are very basic fish, arthropods and so on. No mamals, no dinosaurs both ancient and modern, no lizards, no amphibians and so on. Also might want to update your information more then the last 50 years, we have many fossils that date farther back then cambrian explosion, while yes alot of new forms show up there it's a few hundred million year period saying it's a explosion is like saying, "All modern dinosaurs and mamals exploded on the planet in just the last 60 million years."

I've read "Darwin's Doubt" by Meyers which Marshall (evolutionist) reviewed. While Marshall disagrees with Meyers on some points (especially his conclusion) he admits he mostly correct about the fossils he covered in the book. They recent discover a vertebrate fish in China during the CE. Meyers went into great detail of the pre-Cambrian fossils and the different views over them.
Dinosaurs like T-rex suppose of been around for 100 million years without any evidence of micro-evolution changes let along macro-evolution.

 

[Riberra]

First off, no where in job does it say the tail was like a ceder, please don't spread missinformation. It MOVE like a ceder, it's not a description of it's shape, but how it moves.

Second stones most lilkly is e euphamism for...sex organs.

Actually it says his nose pierces THROUGH snares, AKA a horn like that of a rhinocerous or such.

Rhinocerous moves their tail like pigs not like a cedar.Rhinocerous surely don't drink as much water than the animal described.
Lets see whats under the (hood )... skin!

The Behemoth, with the description from God in the Scripture:

Job 40:15-24
15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.
16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.
17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.
18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.
19 He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.
20 Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play.
21 He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens.
22 The shady trees cover him with their shadow; the willows of the brook compass him about.
23 Behold, he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth.
24 He taketh it with his eyes: his nose pierceth through snares. (KJV)
​

Explanation and description (by the author) of Job 40:15-24. Below, in verse number:

• 16, it describes a large muscular body.
• 17, it describes a tail like a Cedar tree; long and mighty.
• 17, the "sinues of his stones" are stout strong legs.
• 18, his bones are very strong and solid, large bone is strong.
• 19, he is chief of all of God's kingdom, he is the mightiest of all animals (has no natural predator).
• 20, they climb into the mountains.
• 23, he doesn't have to be in fear of predators at the watering hole.
• 23, when he drinks, he drinks allot, as though he could drink up the river Jordan.
• 24, nothing can snare (trap) him, he is the chief of all creatures (see verse 19), and even his very nose is larger and more powerful than any trap that could be laid for him.
• Sources:http://biblestudysite.com/begin.htm
• Images:
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apatosaurus
  

 

[createdtoworship]

Problem is Genus level doesn't allow for enough room for animals to fit on the ark. Take cat kind. These are all the genus's for cats.

Panthera
Lion,tiger,leopard,jaguar

Uncia
Snow leopard.

Neofelis
Clouded leopards

pardofelis
marbled cat

catopuma
bay cat,asian golden cat


And so on. THis isn't even half the genusus, or KIND or cats.


You've just created a massive problem, because many of the animals that creationists would want to stick into cat kind wouldn't work, and if you allow for less groupings, you then accept evolution at a higher rate then even scientists believe is possible.

but you are counting all the genus's currently in existence you would have to discount 6000 years of genus growth.

 

[createdtoworship]

Well, actually, I've never really heard anyone but creationists harping on about the difference between macro and micro, so I don't by it as a valid scientific definition from that. And anyway, any two consecutive generations are going to be the same genus anyway, and it's the change over many generations that results in a different genus, so the claim that the two different species should still be alive is preposterous.

how about these:

Macroevolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Macroevolution | Define Macroevolution at Dictionary.com

 

[createdtoworship]

In those 50 generations, I can show you established small changes between two populations of the same species.

I can do even better than that by giving you living examples, if you get over your plant issue. I could literally send you living beings that have experienced these changes along with the typical, original variety. No gene splicing, no cut and paste plant parts, just good old fashioned random mutation.

that is not evidence for evolution of the animal kinds.

sorry

but thats strike three for lack of evidence.

 

[biggles53]

that is not evidence for evolution of the animal kinds.

sorry

but thats strike three for lack of evidence.

Grady.......do you honestly NOT know how embarrassing your views about evolution are to your denier mates...?

 

[loveofourlord]

but you are counting all the genus's currently in existence you would have to discount 6000 years of genus growth.

wow talk about double speak, so your saying that what, 3 cat genusus*big/small/cheetah* that then formed into the many genus now? AKA at the family level, which then brings in a whole lot of species you guys don't want to be counted. So again you either make the net so wide it creates macro eveolution you don't want, or so narrow you don't have room for them all.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

wow talk about double speak, so your saying that what, 3 cat genusus*big/small/cheetah* that then formed into the many genus now? AKA at the family level, which then brings in a whole lot of species you guys don't want to be counted. So again you either make the net so wide it creates macro eveolution you don't want, or so narrow you don't have room for them all.

Also they do not want to admit that in a mere few generations, mankind has manipulated the cat family and brought about most of the cat kind in existence today. Which just goes to show that through a mere two cats, all the breeds that exists today came about. But we also know for a fact they are NOT different species, since they all cam about through interbreeding of one original breed.

They love that word species, even though it is actually totally useless. They call Tiger and Lion different species, yet we know for a fact they interbreed and produce fertile offspring, their exact definition of species.

Even their own evolutionist admits they have an ego problem when it comes to naming the same kind as different species.

Jack Horner: Shape-shifting dinosaurs - YouTube

Their classification system is so mixed up it is beyond repair.

There is ONE cat kind, from which all Felidae came about. In a mere 100 years we have brought about over 73 different breeds, but they are all cats, have become nothing but cats, and in 1 million years will still be cats, even if their appearance is different from what we would recognize as a cat today.

They do indeed have living examples before their eyes, examples they consistently ignore in favor of fantasy.

 

[Sayre]

Grady.......do you honestly NOT know how embarrassing your views about evolution are to your denier mates...?

Once, I went to the gym, and I saw a guy doing curls in the squat rack with those pretty pink plastic coated dumb bells. 1 kg in each hand.

No one wants to be friends with that guy.

 

[loveofourlord]

Also they do not want to admit that in a mere few generations, mankind has manipulated the cat family and brought about most of the cat kind in existence today. Which just goes to show that through a mere two cats, all the breeds that exists today came about. But we also know for a fact they are NOT different species, since they all cam about through interbreeding of one original breed.

They love that word species, even though it is actually totally useless. They call Tiger and Lion different species, yet we know for a fact they interbreed and produce fertile offspring, their exact definition of species.

Even their own evolutionist admits they have an ego problem when it comes to naming the same kind as different species.

Jack Horner: Shape-shifting dinosaurs - YouTube

Their classification system is so mixed up it is beyond repair.

There is ONE cat kind, from which all Felidae came about. In a mere 100 years we have brought about over 73 different breeds, but they are all cats, have become nothing but cats, and in 1 million years will still be cats, even if their appearance is different from what we would recognize as a cat today.

They do indeed have living examples before their eyes, examples they consistently ignore in favor of fantasy.

Also it starts to blurr the edges when you head towards the sides of cat kind with things like civets and such.

 

[PsychoSarah]

that is not evidence for evolution of the animal kinds.

sorry

but thats strike three for lack of evidence.

I am sorry I don't keep a bunch of random animals in my house to do experiments with; what on earth makes you think that the random mutations that allow for plant speciation are somehow different than the random mutations that every human has (which you can see by looking at the DNA; everyone has somewhere around 50-60 differences in their DNA not seen in either parent. If these changes are on genes, it can have a huge impact. These same sorts of changes are what allow plants to form different cultivars (plant equivalent of subspecies usually associated with human cultivation), so if it happens to plants by this means, it happens to humans by it too).

 

[createdtoworship]

I am sorry I don't keep a bunch of random animals in my house to do experiments with; what on earth makes you think that the random mutations that allow for plant speciation are somehow different than the random mutations that every human has (which you can see by looking at the DNA; everyone has somewhere around 50-60 differences in their DNA not seen in either parent. If these changes are on genes, it can have a huge impact. These same sorts of changes are what allow plants to form different cultivars (plant equivalent of subspecies usually associated with human cultivation), so if it happens to plants by this means, it happens to humans by it too).

how much of physical anthropology focuses on plant life, answer that question.

 

[createdtoworship]

wow talk about double speak, so your saying that what, 3 cat genusus*big/small/cheetah* that then formed into the many genus now? AKA at the family level, which then brings in a whole lot of species you guys don't want to be counted. So again you either make the net so wide it creates macro eveolution you don't want, or so narrow you don't have room for them all.

I believe the count for species of living animals to bottle neck a thus evolve into all the different species we have today are less than 7 thousand. If my memory serves me correctly, and there were I believe room for 6500 species on the arc. (all adolescent) as well as room for food, water, hay

 

[createdtoworship]

Also they do not want to admit that in a mere few generations, mankind has manipulated the cat family and brought about most of the cat kind in existence today. Which just goes to show that through a mere two cats, all the breeds that exists today came about. But we also know for a fact they are NOT different species, since they all cam about through interbreeding of one original breed.

They love that word species, even though it is actually totally useless. They call Tiger and Lion different species, yet we know for a fact they interbreed and produce fertile offspring, their exact definition of species.

Even their own evolutionist admits they have an ego problem when it comes to naming the same kind as different species.

Jack Horner: Shape-shifting dinosaurs - YouTube

Their classification system is so mixed up it is beyond repair.

There is ONE cat kind, from which all Felidae came about. In a mere 100 years we have brought about over 73 different breeds, but they are all cats, have become nothing but cats, and in 1 million years will still be cats, even if their appearance is different from what we would recognize as a cat today.

They do indeed have living examples before their eyes, examples they consistently ignore in favor of fantasy.

good point