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Featured The Lord's Day of Vengeance and Wrath

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by keras, Oct 1, 2017.

  1. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    The OT prophets tell us where the fire comes from, that the Lord will send to destroy His enemies. Isaiah 30:26 states it plainly. 2 Thess 1 is NOT talking about the Return, only His Day of wrath, proved by how not all the world will see Him.
    And He does not actually come in fire, but Psalms 11:4-6, Amos 1:3-14, Ezekiel 20:47-48, + all say the Lord will send fire.
    The 3 definitive scriptures about Jesus' Return do not mention fire. Zechariah 14:3-6, Matthew 24:30, Revelation 19:11-16

    I'm a bit tired of your constant push to combine the Day of wrath with the Return in glory. Why do you ignore the proofs I post and why put two events into one. In Revelation the Day of wrath happens at the Sixth Seal. It isn't until Revelation 19:11 that we see Jesus Return.
    A lot must happen between those two events, proved by the Seventh Seal being a time gap.

    Matthew 13:36-43 is another example of your failure to place prophesies where they belong. This belongs at the Great White Throne Judgement. Proved by the wicked being destined for the Lake of fire, while those whose names are in the Book of life will shine forth in the Kingdom of the Father. Revelation 21:1-7
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2017
  2. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Because I cannot ignore the words of Christ in Matthew chapter 13, or the words of Paul in 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5, and 2 Thessalonians chapter 1, or the text recorded by John in Revelation 11:18.

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  3. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    You manage to ignore the proofs I post, quite OK!

    THE LORDS WRATH – how will it happen?
    This much prophesied, still to come, Lords Day of vengeance and wrath – may happen at the same time as the next Middle East attack. People think there may be a nuclear exchange, but what is more certain is what the prophets say:
    Jeremiah 50:25 The Lord opens His armoury and brings forth the weapons of His wrath, for this is His work to be done in the lands of the godless peoples.
    Isaiah 34:5 For My sword appears in heaven, it descends in judgement.
    Psalm 11:6 The Lord is in heaven, raining fiery coals onto the wicked.
    Isaiah 66:15-16 See, the Lord is coming in fire, like a whirlwind. He will judge with fire, His sword will test mankind and many will be slain by Him.
    Isaiah 33:10-12 Now I shall arise, says the Lord, I will exalt Myself. You will be as chaff and stubble, a wind like fire will consume you. Whole nations will be heaps of white ash, like thorns cut down and set on fire.
    Psalm 144:5-6 Lord, part the heavens. Make lightning flashes far and wide.
    Isaiah 30:30 Then the Lord will make His voice heard in majesty...descending in fierce anger with devouring flames of fire amid storms and hail.
    Jeremiah 30:23-24 See what a scorching wind has gone out from God, a sweeping whirlwind which whirls around the heads of the wicked. The Lords fierce anger is not to be turned aside until He has fully accomplished His purposes.
    In Days to come you will understand.

    Isaiah 29:5-6 Yet, the horde of Your enemies will crumble into dust, fly away like chaff. Suddenly in an instant punishment will come from the Lord, with storms, thunder, earthquakes and great noise and a flame of devouring fire.
    Isaiah 9:19 The land is scorched by the Lord, the people are like fuel for the fire.
    Isaiah 10:17 The Light of Israel will become as fire, its Holy One a flame, which, in one day will burn up and consume His thorns and briars.
    Isaiah 30:26 On the Day that the Lord saves His people, the sun will shine with seven times its usual brightness, like seven days in one and the moon will be as bright as the sun.
    See; the Lord comes from afar, His anger blazing and His doom heavy. His lips are charged with wrath and His tongue is a devouring fire. His breath is like a torrent in spate. He sieves out the nations for destruction.
    Isaiah 63:1-6

    What these (and many other) prophecies seem to be describing, is sunspot activity.
    Maybe the sun is building up to a huge coronal mass ejection. This can happen very suddenly and unexpectedly, reaching earth within hours and would be capable of causing enormous damage and deaths worldwide.
    All electrical and communications systems, industry, transport, you name it, could be destroyed, or at least severely damaged. Armies would be back to 1800’s technology.
     
  4. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    In Matthew chapter 13, and Matthew chapter 25, and 2 Thessalonians chapter 1, we find specific references to both the Son of God and fire, in the same passage.

    How many of the Old Testament passages that you listed above contain both the word "sun" and fire?



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  5. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Equating the Son with the sun, is foolishness.
     
  6. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    As Bible prophecy does tell us that a Coronal Mass Ejection, an explosion of the sun’s surface is what the Lord will use on His Day of wrath, Isaiah 30:26a, Psalms 50:1-2, Malachi 4:1, +, we should know what a CME is and what it can do.
    Briefly: On the Appointed Day, Habakkuk 2:3, the sun will explode out a huge, earth directed mass of superheated hydrogen plasma. The initial super bright flash and the Electro- Magnetic Pulse will arrive here within 8 minutes, causing armed nuke weapons to explode, Jeremiah 49:35, and all electrical systems will be destroyed. The EMP microwave effect will also cause tectonic plate movement, Deuteronomy 32:22 - severe worldwide earthquakes.
    The sun will be darkened by being obscured by the approaching mass and the moon will burn blood red from the plasma's thermite reaction with the moon dust.
    24 hours after the explosion, the main mass will strike the earth, directly onto the Middle East, Zephaniah 2:4, wiping out the entire population, excepting a small remnant in Jerusalem. Isaiah 29:4, Jeremiah 10:18, Psalms 97:3-5, Zephaniah 1:14-18;+ [God's perfect solution to the ME crisis]
    But as the earth is rotating and moving at 66,000mph on its orbital track, it quickly moves away and the rest of the world won't be so badly affected. The survivor's will form a One World Government, but we Christians will gather and live in all of the holy Land. Ezekiel 34:11-31, Psalms 107, Isaiah 35:1-10

    The great Day of the Lord's wrath; the Sixth Seal, will come upon everyone the whole world over. Luke 21:34-35 Proved by how Revelation 6:15 covers every person. Isaiah 24:1-2, Zephaniah 3:8, 2 Peter 3:7
    No one will be taken away before this great test of our faith, 1 Peter 4:12, we will all see the cosmic effects and experience the devastation of that Day. Jeremiah 25:29-33
    There are some signs to happen before that Day, we should know about. The 'sign of the fig tree budding', has occurred with the Jews establishing their own State in a part of the holy Land. Jesus said: the generation that see this will live to see it all. Matthew 24:32-34, Ezekiel 12:25 A lifetime as defined Biblically is 70 years; Psalms 90:10. So before May 2018, the prophesied events will commence, leading up to the Return of Jesus.
    Another prophecy that requires fulfilment before the Day of wrath, is Isaiah 3:1-7 and it may be that Micah 5:1 will precede it.

    Isaiah 3:1-7 is specifically about Judah and Jerusalem. It says that they will lose their good leaders and the Lord will appoint incompetent youths to govern.
    This prophecy has not been fulfilled as Written, so must belong to the present day. Judah is a nation, they control Jerusalem and they have a strong and experienced leader in Benyamin Netanyahu. If anything happened to him, they would be in disarray.
    Micah 5:1, is an interesting verse without any context to help explain it, says how Israel's ruler will be struck on the cheek with a rod. A 'rod' is a slang term for a rifle and today it is possible for a sniper to accurately hit people at ranges of up to 2 miles.

    The world is plainly, as in the days of Noah, as they and now we; think is normal life. BUT they and now the modern world, have sidelined their Creator. People say 'there is no God' and the bulk of humans, just ignore the One true God and worship materialism, idols or false gods. God will correct the situation; He did so before and He will do it again!
    Isaiah 3:8-26, goes on to tell how rebel Judah will be brought low; the look on their faces testifies against them! Amazing prophecy, that perfectly fits the arrogant, LGBT and 'stiff necked' people who live in Israel now.
    The Lord says: on that Day, I will take away your pride, instead of perfume there will be the stink of decay.....your men will fall by the Sword of the Lord and Zion will be stripped bare.
    Wait for the Day!
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2017
  7. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The problem is that we find the return of Christ with His angels and the destruction of the wicked in the parable of the wheat and tares from Matthew chapter 13. There is also a reference to fire in the passage.

    We have the return of Christ and His angels at the end of Matthew chapter 25 in the sheep and goat judgment. Again, we find a reference to fire in the passage.

    We have the return of Christ in 2 Thessalonians chapter 1 and the words "in flaming fire" and a reference to destruction of those who do not know God.

    These clear passages show that the fire comes at the Second Coming of Christ.
    If you are going to make your CME scenario work, you have to make it fit these passages.
    If you have to ignore these passages to make your CME doctrine work, then you are revealing the true nature of the idea.


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  8. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    I looked again at the three scriptures you mention. None of them say that what is prophesied in them will happen when Jesus Returns for His Millennium reign. Proved by the sequence of the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls in Revelation. The Sixth Seal - the Lord's Day of wrath is the next event to happen.
    And although Revelation 6:12-17 does not mention fire, this is made clear by the 100+ other prophesies about the great and terrible Day of the Lord's wrath.
    You must prove your case, if you promote the Lord's wrath at the Return. But the three definitive scriptures about that glorious event do not mention His wrath or judgement by fire. Zechariah 14:3-4, Matthew 24:30, Revelation 19:11-21 [Only the 'beast and the false prophet' into the Lake of fire]
     
  9. BABerean2

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    Mat 24:29  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 
    Mat 24:30  Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 


    Rev 6:12  I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 
    Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 



    Rev 6:16  and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 
    Rev 6:17  For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

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  10. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Matthew 24:29-30 do not say the Lord will judge/punish with fire then. [at Jesus' Return]
    Revelation 6:12-17 proves my case, that the Lord's Day of wrath is years before the Return.

    Your rebuttal by just quoting prophesies shows how bereft of any actual proof you are, of your false belief that Jesus will instigate His Day of vengeance and wrath by fire, at His Return.
     
  11. BABerean2

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    2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 
    2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 
    2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 
    2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
     


    Mat 13:40  As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 
    Mat 13:41  The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 
    Mat 13:42  And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 
    Mat 13:43  Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. 





    Mat 25:31  When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 
    Mat 25:32  And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 
    Mat 25:33  And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 
    Mat 25:34  Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 

    Mat 25:41  Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 


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  12. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Baberean, if you have something useful to say, then post it. Just quoting scripture that you think means one thing and I think another, is a waste of time and effort.
    The furnace of fire and everlasting fire are both obviously quite different from when the Lord comes in, or sends fire.
    I get the impression that you don't want anything nasty to happen during your time on earth. You, like most of us have a settled life, have all you need and look for a settled existence until you die.
    I; on the other hand, say; Bring it on Lord, I look forward to the Day when the Lord destroys His enemies and He blesses His people as He promises. Even though I have a very happy and comfortable life now.
    What we are promised will be fantastic and be the fulfillment of our destiny!
     
  13. BABerean2

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    Sadly, I am expecting one or more U.S. cities to go up in a mushroom cloud any day now and for me and my friends to be hunted down like wild animals.

    It is not what I hope for, but I know it is possible that the globalists would do this to achieve their goal.


    Heb 11:35  Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: 

    Heb 11:36  And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: 

    Heb 11:37  They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 

    Heb 11:38  (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. 

    Heb 11:39  And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 

    Heb 11:40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. 



    I am saddened that you have begun to attack me because I do not accept your CME scenario.
    I love you anyway, because I am commanded by Christ to do so.


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  14. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Why is it so difficult for you to believe what the Prophetic Word does tell us will happen?
    Your scenario above, is just the common idea of wars like we have always had. But the prophets tell us that this time, it will be the Lord who will instigate the next event. A worldwide disaster by fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis. Luke 21:25-28 Note: that the Lord comes AFTER this terrible time.
    Why should you or any Christian be in the dark about what the Lord will do?
     
  15. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    God will judge mankind – His righteous people will be saved. Acts 2:21

    Nahum 1:1-3 The Lord is a jealous and avenging God, slow to anger and of great power. He will not let the guilty go unpunished.

    Isaiah 5:16 The Lord is exalted by judgement and by righteousness.

    Exodus 34:7 The Lord does not leave the guilty unpunished.

    Hebrews 10:26-27 For if we deliberately persist in sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there can be no further expiation for our sins, only a terrifying expectation of judgement in a fierce fire which will consume God’s enemies.

    Isaiah 26:21 The Lord is coming from His dwelling place to punish the people of the earth for their sins. The sins of the guilty will be revealed.

    Psalms 21:8-9 Your hand will reach all your enemies, fire will totally consume them.

    Psalms 110:5-6 The Lord crushes kings on the Day of His wrath. He judges the nations.

    Habakkuk 3:12 Furiously, You traverse the earth and trample the nations.

    Isaiah 63:1-6 Who is this coming in His strength, from Edom, Bozrah, with his garments stained red? I trampled the nations in My anger, for the Day of vengeance and the year for redeeming My own had come. [Then, some years later, Jesus Returns: wearing blood stained garments. Rev 19:13]

    Ezekiel 7:2-4 The end is coming to all the earth, I shall unleash My anger upon the Land of Israel. I shall neither pity nor spare you, I shall make you suffer for your conduct. Doom is upon you – the Day is near, a Day of panic and you will know that the Lord struck you. [The current inhabitants of Israel are judged. Jer. 14:12]

    Isaiah 30: 26-28 On the Day the Lord saves His [righteous] people, the sun will shine 7 times brighter and the moon will be as bright as the sun. The Lord comes from afar, [The Lord sends fire: Psalms 11:4-6, Amos 1] with burning anger and dense smoke. His breath is a consuming fire. He shakes the nations in a sieve of destruction.

    Isaiah 30: 30-33 Then, the Lord will make His voice heard in majesty and reveal His arm descending in fierce anger with devouring fire and tempests of hail. Assyria will be punished [Isaiah 31:8] The Lord will set ablaze a fire pit in Topeth. [near Jerusalem]


    Isaiah 30:29 But for you there will be songs, as on a feast day. Your hearts will rejoice, as you go up with music to the Mountain of the Lord, to the Rock of Israel.

    Isaiah 29:17-20 In a very short time Lebanon [part of the holy Land] will return to garden land. On that Day, the deaf will hear and the blind will see. The lowly and poor will rejoice and exult in the Holy One of Israel, but the sinners and arrogant will cease to exist.

    Isaiah 29:22-24 The Lord says: This is no time for Jacob to be shamed or frightened, for his descendants, [actual and Spiritual] will hallow My Name when they see what I have done, the work of My hand. They will regard God with awe and worship the Holy One of Israel.
    Then the confused will gain understanding and the obstinate will accept instruction.
    Ref: REB, NIV, KJV. Some verses abridged.

    These Bible passages, describing the Lord’s judgement of fire on His enemies, are paralleled by Rev 6:12-17 – the Sixth Seal event. THEN: “in a very short time”, for all His faithful Christian people, there will be rejoicing as they gather and settle in the Promised Land. Isaiah 30:15 In calm detachment lies your safety, your strength in trust.

    There is no indication that any of these events occur at the time of the Return of Jesus in His glory. Therefore it all happens before then.
     
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