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The lie of eternal security refuted once and for all.

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Okie dokie then.......

It's why Paul says,

"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" (2 Corinthians 13:5).


...
 
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ToBeLoved

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It's why Paul says,

"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" (2 Corinthians 13:5).


...
Examining one self has as much to do with the heart and motiations as it does with staying away from sin. Making it all about sin leaves out a more important element which is our relationship with God and listening to the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Spiritual 'insight'

All sin starts in the heart, then goes to the mind and then finally manifests itself with some sort of action.

So beating people down about sin, does not even cover the "root cause" of sin which is the heart.
 
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Examining one self has as much to do with the heart and motiations as it does with staying away from sin. Making it all about sin leaves out a more important element which is our relationship with God and listening to the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Spiritual 'insight'

All sin starts in the heart, then goes to the mind and then finally manifests itself with some sort of action.

So beating people down about sin, does not even cover the "root cause" of sin which is the heart.

I never said that one can have wrong motivations or sinful thoughts (Or that such a thing would not be included in 2 Corinthians 13:5). But you are wrong, that 2 Corinthians 13:5 is not talking about sin. For 2 Corinthians 13:5 is talking about the fruits of the Lord in their life (Which would be a life of holiness and not sin). In fact, Paul says in verse 7 (2 Corinthians 13:7) that he prays that they do no evil. Evil is sin.


...
 
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FreeGrace2

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I am not making false accusations. You believe contrary to the teaching on God's Word that a believer can stop sinning.
There are ZERO verses that teach that one must achieve sinless perfection to be saved. NONE. NADA. ZIP.

What believers are to do is to confess our sins when we sin. For fellowship, a concept that apparently you have no idea about.

1 Jn 1:8 is directly aimed at your view that one CAN achieve sinlessness. And you have failed to understand it.
 
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Hmmmm...that's what we're doing here, Jason. Continuing in His Word.

This was quoted to Steeno7. He was not quoting Scripture (i.e. Continuing in His Word).
I keep asking him to use God's Word so as to explain why he disagrees, but he refuses to do so.


....
 
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True Science

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"OK, so you are quite unfamiliar with the difference between relationship and fellowship. How sad. That's why there i so much confusion about Scripture among the conditional security ilk.

The parable of the prodigal is a very clear example of fellowship and relationship. Throughout the parable, the son continued to be the son, and the father continued to be the father. What was broken, lost, or died, was fellowship, not relationship.

When people confuse these 2 words, they get into all kinds of false doctrines."


>>> Okay so even though Christ says the branches are his followers, people, you say that it is fellowship. What makes it even more ridiculous is how you have to understand the fellowship dying and being cast into the fire! Oookaaay! Dude, you clearly don't want the truth. You are following ear-tickling lies like Paul says.

"Can you severe the physical RELATIONSHIP between yourself and either of your parents? of course NOT. But, can you kill fellowship with either of them. Absolutely."

>>>
You are looking at this from your perverted western modern day mindset:

Chap. XLI. — Those Persons Who Do Not Believe in God, but Who Are Disobedient, Are Angels and Sons of the Devil, Not Indeed by Nature, but by Imitation. Close of This Book, and Scope of the Succeeding One.

1. Inasmuch as the Lord has said that there are certain angels, [viz. those] of the devil, for whom eternal fire is prepared; and as, again, He declares with regard to the tares, “The tares are the children of the wicked one,” (Mat_13:38) it must be affirmed that He has ascribed all who are of the apostasy to him who is the ringleader of this transgression. But He made neither angels nor men so by nature. For we do not find that the devil created anything whatsoever, since indeed he is himself a creature of God, like the other angels. For God made all things, as also David says with regard to all things of the kind: “For He spake the word, and they were made; He commanded, and they were created.” (Psa_149:5)

2. Since, therefore, all things were made by God, and since the devil has become the cause of apostasy to himself and others, justly does the Scripture always term those who remain in a state of apostasy “sons of the devil” and “angels of the wicked one” (maligni). For [the word] “son,” as one before me has observed, has a twofold meaning: one [is a son] in the order of nature, because he was born a son; the other, in that he was made so, is reputed a son, although there be a difference between being born so and being made so. For the first is indeed born from the person referred to; but the second is made so by him, whether as respects his creation or by the teaching of his doctrine. For when any person has been taught from the mouth of another, he is termed the son of him who instructs him, and the latter [is called] his father. According to nature, then -that is, according to creation, so to speak — we are all sons of God, because we have all been created by God. But with respect to obedience and doctrine we are not all the sons of God: those only are so who believe in Him and do His will. And those who do not believe, and do not obey His will, are sons and angels of the devil, because they do the works of the devil. And that such is the case He has declared in Isaiah: “I have begotten and brought up children, but they have rebelled against Me.” (Isa_1:2) And again, where He says that these children are aliens: “Strange children have lied unto Me.” (Psa_18:45) According to nature, then, they are [His] children, because they have been so created; but with regard to their works, they are not His children.

3. For as, among men, those sons who disobey their fathers, being disinherited, are still their sons in the course of nature, but by law are disinherited, for they do not become the heirs of their natural parents; so in the same way is it with God, — those who do not obey Him being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons. Wherefore they cannot receive His inheritance: as David says, “Sinners are alienated from the womb; their anger is after the likeness of a serpent.” (Psa_58:3, Psa_58:4) And therefore did the Lord term those whom He knew to be the offspring of men “a generation of vipers;” (Mat_23:33) because after the manner of these animals they go about in subtilty, and injure others. For He said, “Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.” (Mat_16:6) Speaking of Herod, too, He says, “Go ye and tell that fox,” (Luk_13:32) aiming at his wicked cunning and deceit. Wherefore the prophet David says, “Man, being placed in honour, is made like unto cattle.” (Ps. 49:21) And again Jeremiah says, “They are become like horses, furious about females; each one neighed after his neighbour’s wife.” (Jer_5:8) And Isaiah, when preaching in Judea, and reasoning with Israel, termed them “rulers of Sodom” and “people of Gomorrah;” (Isa_1:10) intimating that they were like the Sodomites in wickedness, and that the same description of sins was rife among them, calling them by the same name, because of the similarity of their conduct. And inasmuch as they were not by nature so created by God, but had power also to act rightly, the same person said to them, giving them good counsel, “Wash ye, make you clean; take away iniquity from your souls before mine eyes; cease from your iniquities.” (Isa_1:16) Thus, no doubt, since they had transgressed and sinned in the same manner, so did they receive the same reproof as did the Sodomites. But when they should be converted and come to repentance, and cease from evil, they should have power to become the sons of God, and to receive the inheritance of immortality which is given by Him. For this reason, therefore, He has termed those “angels of the devil,” and “children of the wicked one,” (Mat_25:41, Mat_13:38) who give heed to the devil, and do his works. But these are, at the same time, all created by the one and the same God. When, however, they believe and are subject to God, and go on and keep His doctrine, they are the sons of God; but when they have apostatized and fallen into transgression, they are ascribed to their chief, the devil — to him who first became the cause of apostasy to himself, and afterwards to others.”—Irenaeus’ Against Heresies Book 4—Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol. 2. Edited by Alexander Roberts, D.D., and James Donaldson, LL.D.

Notice in verse 3 how it says, “For as, among men, those sons who disobey their fathers, being disinherited, are still their sons in the course of nature, but by law are disinherited, for they do not become the heirs of their natural parents; so in the same way is it with God, — those who do not obey Him being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons.” Irenaeus, who grew up in a time where things were virtually the same as the time when Christ and the Apostles walked the earth, also understood real life the father-son relationship much different than you and many other people who have a perverted modern day western mindset. All this is saying exactly the same thing as I have told you. Both me and an ancient father—who lived very close to the time of the Apostles, who was almost completely orthodox in all things from what I can see, except his understanding of the Torah, which was quite close to being accurate though—are both in agreement in this.
 
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True Science

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"Your views demonstrate an extreme lack of proper understanding of Scripture. Which has resulted in direct rejection of truth.

You have failed to heed 2 Tim 2:15 - Be diligent (by study) to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.

You've not studied, have not accurately handled the word of truth, and are not an approved workman to God."


O I can't wait until the day these words get shoved back down your throat and I am vindicated by the Most High, and all those with me.

Eze 13:22 “Because with falsehood you have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad. And you have strengthened the hands of the wrong, so that he does not turn from his evil way, to keep him alive.
Eze 13:23 “Therefore you shall no longer see false visions, nor practise divination. And I shall deliver My people out of your hand, and you shall know that I am יהוה.” ’ ”
 
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FreeGrace2

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As for Sinless Perfectionism:
A peson has to just read this list of verses here to see that it is true.

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...nce-and-for-all.7920118/page-42#post-69243051
None of them teach sinless perfection.

As for 1 John 1:8: It has to be read in context to 1 John 2:4.....
And it is. Neither verse teaches sinless perfection.

But, Jason himself has admitted that he hasn't quite "arrived" just yet in the land of sinless perfection. Wonder why? Just not all that interested? Or incapable of reaching such a state?

Anyhoo, 1 Jn 1:8 directly refutes his notions. "The one who says he has no sin" in that verse would be anyone who claims to have achieved sinless perfection.

So, let's move on to 2:4, since he thinks this verse supports his notions.

"The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him"

It is really amazing how one would cite this verse in support of the view that 1 Jn 1:8 doesn't condemn the "one who claims he has no sin".

His own admission demonstrates that he has deceived himself and the truth is not in himself.

By his admission that he hasn't yet reached the rarified atmosphere of sinless perfection, 1 Jn 2:4 also applies to him.
 
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FreeGrace2

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"OK, so you are quite unfamiliar with the difference between relationship and fellowship. How sad. That's why there i so much confusion about Scripture among the conditional security ilk.

The parable of the prodigal is a very clear example of fellowship and relationship. Throughout the parable, the son continued to be the son, and the father continued to be the father. What was broken, lost, or died, was fellowship, not relationship.

When people confuse these 2 words, they get into all kinds of false doctrines."


>>> Okay so even though Christ says the branches are his followers, people, you say that it is fellowship.
The metaphor isn't about relationship, as I noted. It's about service, just as a branch is in service to the farmer. Want to argue that?

What makes it even more ridiculous is how you have to understand the fellowship dying and being cast into the fire![/QUOT]
The only point is that the farmer discards unfruitful branches. The entire context is about Israel, a people chosen by God for service. And when they failed at that, God couldn't use them. And discarded them in favor of Gentiles.

"Can you severe the physical RELATIONSHIP between yourself and either of your parents? of course NOT. But, can you kill fellowship with either of them. Absolutely."

>>>
You are looking at this from your perverted western modern day mindset:
So, you just don't want to face the fact that the relationship between birth parent and child CANNOT BE BROKEN. OK, that's your privilege.

Chap. XLI. — Those Persons Who Do Not Believe in God, but Who Are Disobedient, Are Angels and Sons of the Devil, Not Indeed by Nature, but by Imitation. Close of This Book, and Scope of the Succeeding One.

1. Inasmuch as the Lord has said that there are certain angels, [viz. those] of the devil, for whom eternal fire is prepared; and as, again, He declares with regard to the tares, “The tares are the children of the wicked one,” (Mat_13:38) it must be affirmed that He has ascribed all who are of the apostasy to him who is the ringleader of this transgression. But He made neither angels nor men so by nature. For we do not find that the devil created anything whatsoever, since indeed he is himself a creature of God, like the other angels. For God made all things, as also David says with regard to all things of the kind: “For He spake the word, and they were made; He commanded, and they were created.” (Psa_149:5)

2. Since, therefore, all things were made by God, and since the devil has become the cause of apostasy to himself and others, justly does the Scripture always term those who remain in a state of apostasy “sons of the devil” and “angels of the wicked one” (maligni). For [the word] “son,” as one before me has observed, has a twofold meaning: one [is a son] in the order of nature, because he was born a son; the other, in that he was made so, is reputed a son, although there be a difference between being born so and being made so. For the first is indeed born from the person referred to; but the second is made so by him, whether as respects his creation or by the teaching of his doctrine. For when any person has been taught from the mouth of another, he is termed the son of him who instructs him, and the latter [is called] his father. According to nature, then -that is, according to creation, so to speak — we are all sons of God, because we have all been created by God. But with respect to obedience and doctrine we are not all the sons of God: those only are so who believe in Him and do His will. And those who do not believe, and do not obey His will, are sons and angels of the devil, because they do the works of the devil. And that such is the case He has declared in Isaiah: “I have begotten and brought up children, but they have rebelled against Me.” (Isa_1:2) And again, where He says that these children are aliens: “Strange children have lied unto Me.” (Psa_18:45) According to nature, then, they are [His] children, because they have been so created; but with regard to their works, they are not His children.

3. For as, among men, those sons who disobey their fathers, being disinherited, are still their sons in the course of nature, but by law are disinherited, for they do not become the heirs of their natural parents; so in the same way is it with God, — those who do not obey Him being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons. Wherefore they cannot receive His inheritance: as David says, “Sinners are alienated from the womb; their anger is after the likeness of a serpent.” (Psa_58:3, Psa_58:4) And therefore did the Lord term those whom He knew to be the offspring of men “a generation of vipers;” (Mat_23:33) because after the manner of these animals they go about in subtilty, and injure others. For He said, “Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.” (Mat_16:6) Speaking of Herod, too, He says, “Go ye and tell that fox,” (Luk_13:32) aiming at his wicked cunning and deceit. Wherefore the prophet David says, “Man, being placed in honour, is made like unto cattle.” (Ps. 49:21) And again Jeremiah says, “They are become like horses, furious about females; each one neighed after his neighbour’s wife.” (Jer_5:8) And Isaiah, when preaching in Judea, and reasoning with Israel, termed them “rulers of Sodom” and “people of Gomorrah;” (Isa_1:10) intimating that they were like the Sodomites in wickedness, and that the same description of sins was rife among them, calling them by the same name, because of the similarity of their conduct. And inasmuch as they were not by nature so created by God, but had power also to act rightly, the same person said to them, giving them good counsel, “Wash ye, make you clean; take away iniquity from your souls before mine eyes; cease from your iniquities.” (Isa_1:16) Thus, no doubt, since they had transgressed and sinned in the same manner, so did they receive the same reproof as did the Sodomites. But when they should be converted and come to repentance, and cease from evil, they should have power to become the sons of God, and to receive the inheritance of immortality which is given by Him. For this reason, therefore, He has termed those “angels of the devil,” and “children of the wicked one,” (Mat_25:41, Mat_13:38) who give heed to the devil, and do his works. But these are, at the same time, all created by the one and the same God. When, however, they believe and are subject to God, and go on and keep His doctrine, they are the sons of God; but when they have apostatized and fallen into transgression, they are ascribed to their chief, the devil — to him who first became the cause of apostasy to himself, and afterwards to others.”—Irenaeus’ Against Heresies Book 4—Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol. 2. Edited by Alexander Roberts, D.D., and James Donaldson, LL.D.

Notice in verse 3 how it says, “For as, among men, those sons who disobey their fathers, being disinherited, are still their sons in the course of nature, but by law are disinherited, for they do not become the heirs of their natural parents; so in the same way is it with God, — those who do not obey Him being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons.” Irenaeus, who grew up in a time where things were virtually the same as the time when Christ and the Apostles walked the earth, also understood real life the father-son relationship much different than you and many other people who have a perverted modern day western mindset. All this is saying exactly the same thing as I have told you. Both me and an ancient father—who lived very close to the time of the Apostles, who was almost completely orthodox in all things from what I can see, except his understanding of the Torah, which was quite close to being accurate though—are both in agreement in this.
I've been consistent in my views. The NT contains 3 passages about "no inheritance in the kingdom"/"will not inherit the kingdom". This isn't about loss of salvation, but loss of inheritance rights in the kingdom.

Apparently you are ignorant of the difference between simply living in a home and owning said home. One has rights; the other one doesn't.

And you cannot get around the fact that God's gifts, including eternal life, are irrevocable. That alone completely defeats your notions.
 
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FreeGrace2

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"Your views demonstrate an extreme lack of proper understanding of Scripture. Which has resulted in direct rejection of truth.

You have failed to heed 2 Tim 2:15 - Be diligent (by study) to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.

You've not studied, have not accurately handled the word of truth, and are not an approved workman to God."


O I can't wait until the day these words get shoved back down your throat and I am vindicated by the Most High, and all those with me.
More fantasy from your side. lol Oh, and a wee bit of pride to go along with said fantasy.

Eze 13:22 “Because with falsehood you have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad. And you have strengthened the hands of the wrong, so that he does not turn from his evil way, to keep him alive.
Eze 13:23 “Therefore you shall no longer see false visions, nor practise divination. And I shall deliver My people out of your hand, and you shall know that I am יהוה.” ’ ”
I suppose this somehow refutes my views, huh? Whatever.

Why doesn't your ilk accept the fact that eternal life is a gift of God. And that God's gifts are irrevocable.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Present active continuous tense understanding of salvation can be imposed upon the aorist but in reverse it is not possible. All would have to be aorist.
Please cite your source. I don't take any non scholar's word for anything. Your claim appears to be just a hopeful or wishful opinion.

And i proved from Jesus' own parable that even though He used the present active tense for "believe" He added "for a while" immedately after. Proving that the present active tense doesn't mean continuing until kingdom come.
 
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Marvin Knox

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While you may say that you do not throw out the Moral Law, the end result is still the same when you say there is no consequences to your soul in the after-life if you do break God's Laws. By teaching such a thing, you are going to lead people into breaking God's Laws (Whether you want that to happen or not). It is a doctrine of immorality that gives people a license to sin....
No one says that there are not consequences to the soul in the after-life if they break the laws of God.

No one is saying that anyone has a license to sin.

You have been corrected on these things over and over again here.

You don't get to make up what you think people are saying.

You only get to repeat what they do say.

You've been accused of lying about people many times and this is an example of why that is.

Knock it off.
 
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Marvin Knox

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You don't know what he believes. But I do. I know he believes in a form of Eternal Security (like you) which is a denial that there are no dire consequences to one's soul if one disobeys God's Laws. For you both believe Jesus paid the price for all your sins: Past, present, and future. This gives you both a license to sin (if you so choose to do so). Even more of a problem is that it leads others into sin by such a teaching (Even children). And what does Jesus say will happen to a person if they lead a child into sin? ...
I told you to knock it off.
 
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No one says that there are not consequences to the soul in the after-life if they break the laws of God.

No one is saying that anyone has a license to sin.

You have been corrected on these things over and over again here.

You don't get to make up what you think people are saying.

You only get to repeat what they do say.

You've been accused of lying about people many times and this is an example of why that is.

Knock it off.

Not at all. You are simply unaware of what people really believe here. How so?

Here is just one example of a poster here who has admitted that they can continue to do evil and horrible sins and still be saved.

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...nce-and-for-all.7920118/page-17#post-69210951


....
 
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ToBeLoved

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I never said that one can have wrong motivations or sinful thoughts (Or that such a thing would not be included in 2 Corinthians 13:5). But you are wrong, that 2 Corinthians 13:5 is not talking about sin. For 2 Corinthians 13:5 is talking about the fruits of the Lord in their life (Which would be a life of holiness and not sin). In fact, Paul says in verse 7 (2 Corinthians 13:7) that he prays that they do no evil. Evil is sin.


...
I'm talking about how you are so 'sin' orientated. It gets tiring reading it and I'm a Christian.
 
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