I do not want you to get banned.
I disagree with you though. We will leave it at that so we do not say anything against the rules.
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The lie of eternal security refuted once and for all.
- Thread starter jonnox777
- Start date
I disagree with you though. We will leave it at that so we do not say anything against the rules.
I do not treat the text any way. You can understand what the text is saying by studying it in depth.
I was not talking about you in particular. I was refering to the text, so I do not know why you think I implied that you said anything. THis is about the verses, not you my friend.
If you are going to get personal, that will be a problem.
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- Jul 22, 2014
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Yes, this suggests to me that Once Saved Always Saved or Eternal Security is a lie.
Believers have to do what is right in order to be in God's good graces.
For if God allowed His people to think they can do evil and still be saved would mean God would have to agree with that line of wrong thinking, too.
...
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"If something is undeserved and unearned, there is NOTHING TO DO to receive it. Like a gift. How many birthday and Christmas presents did you work for?"
>>> Well then what Christ says about counting the cost is meaningless. There would be no cost because it is a free gift. So if someone gave you a puppy you would not be morally obligated to take care of that puppy, to maintain it? You could just do whatever you want with that puppy and it would not effect what the authorities did to you? The Bible doesn't teach private property anyway but only goes as far as personal property. Nothing is our own completely. The earth is God's and fullness thereof. Your salvation doesn't even completely belong to you. It is God's salvation. It ours as long as God allows us to have it as per us meeting his conditions of faith. I could make the same argument as you about being required to have faith before one can receive a gift. You could say because someone needs to meet a condition of believing in the gift, therefore it is not a real gift because a gift is completely free and requires no conditions to be met. So all that would require is receiving the gift, not true faith. The problem you have is that you don't understand how the gift was given.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Gal_1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
Gal_2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Eph_5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
1Ti_2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Tit_2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
1Jn_5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
What the salvation God GAVE us is, is the free gift of His Son. It is not personal salvation. We have to be in Christ to be saved. That is where salvation is. Being in Christ requires us to do God's commandments as per John 15 or else we are cut off (if we were even in him in the first place).
More refutations of your fallacious appeal to "free gift."
Free cheque for $100,000, all you have to do is fill in your name and deposit it.
Faith only reply, "Is it no longer free because of work of signing and depositing?
Drowning in sea, man throws a life-ring and says, "Save yourself and grab this!"
Faith only reply, "No, for there is nothing one can do to save himself and I wouldn't want to boast that I saved myself and earned my salvation."
The free gift also involves this:
Tit 2:14 who gave Himself on our behalf, "that He might redeem us from all lawlessness and purify a special people for Himself," zealous of good works.
Part of the gift is being redeemed from all lawlessness. This is not just records of lawlessness of our criminal record. This is actual lawlessness, lawless deeds and a lawless nature. In salvation in Christ REPENTANCE from sin is granted in actually having force unto salvation. Our deeds actually count in Christ because of our sins being blotted out so that we are not held to them unto condemnation in Hell. And we are reborn of the Spirit when we obey the Gospel so that we are empowered by God's Spirit to live godly life in him, we don't have to go it alone.
The requirement of obeying God's Law to be saved is not to earn a pay check that you deserve but a second chance with God in a gift of pardon. If a judge gives you a gift of pardon it is still conditioned upon you reforming yourself or else you will end up back in jail. You are making a nonsense argument and I really hate this crap you guys say, ugh...
>>> Well then what Christ says about counting the cost is meaningless. There would be no cost because it is a free gift. So if someone gave you a puppy you would not be morally obligated to take care of that puppy, to maintain it? You could just do whatever you want with that puppy and it would not effect what the authorities did to you? The Bible doesn't teach private property anyway but only goes as far as personal property. Nothing is our own completely. The earth is God's and fullness thereof. Your salvation doesn't even completely belong to you. It is God's salvation. It ours as long as God allows us to have it as per us meeting his conditions of faith. I could make the same argument as you about being required to have faith before one can receive a gift. You could say because someone needs to meet a condition of believing in the gift, therefore it is not a real gift because a gift is completely free and requires no conditions to be met. So all that would require is receiving the gift, not true faith. The problem you have is that you don't understand how the gift was given.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Gal_1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
Gal_2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Eph_5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
1Ti_2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Tit_2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
1Jn_5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
What the salvation God GAVE us is, is the free gift of His Son. It is not personal salvation. We have to be in Christ to be saved. That is where salvation is. Being in Christ requires us to do God's commandments as per John 15 or else we are cut off (if we were even in him in the first place).
More refutations of your fallacious appeal to "free gift."
Free cheque for $100,000, all you have to do is fill in your name and deposit it.
Faith only reply, "Is it no longer free because of work of signing and depositing?
Drowning in sea, man throws a life-ring and says, "Save yourself and grab this!"
Faith only reply, "No, for there is nothing one can do to save himself and I wouldn't want to boast that I saved myself and earned my salvation."
The free gift also involves this:
Tit 2:14 who gave Himself on our behalf, "that He might redeem us from all lawlessness and purify a special people for Himself," zealous of good works.
Part of the gift is being redeemed from all lawlessness. This is not just records of lawlessness of our criminal record. This is actual lawlessness, lawless deeds and a lawless nature. In salvation in Christ REPENTANCE from sin is granted in actually having force unto salvation. Our deeds actually count in Christ because of our sins being blotted out so that we are not held to them unto condemnation in Hell. And we are reborn of the Spirit when we obey the Gospel so that we are empowered by God's Spirit to live godly life in him, we don't have to go it alone.
The requirement of obeying God's Law to be saved is not to earn a pay check that you deserve but a second chance with God in a gift of pardon. If a judge gives you a gift of pardon it is still conditioned upon you reforming yourself or else you will end up back in jail. You are making a nonsense argument and I really hate this crap you guys say, ugh...
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"I hope you are aware that God obligated Himself when He created the plan of salvation. He obligated Himself to give the free gift of eternal life to who place their trust in Christ for salvation."
>>> My point is that God did not have to give the covenant promise of salvation in Christ. We did not do anything to actually deserve pardon in Christ. we are solely at God's mercy.
>>> My point is that God did not have to give the covenant promise of salvation in Christ. We did not do anything to actually deserve pardon in Christ. we are solely at God's mercy.
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- Jul 22, 2014
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Please PM me this paper. As you know. I am strongly against Eternal Security and would like to help you to defend the faith, brother.
...
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One cooperates with and by listening to the Holy Spirit.
One either sows sin or the spiritual things of God in each moment. Carnality OR spirituality. Not both. In each moment we are sowing only one. And each moment we decide again.
So, it is in a combination of moments that we begin to sow.
It is only sin or carnal moments that lead to reaping bad things.
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Christ made a covenant with mankind. The New Covenant.
Christ hold's up His covenants always. He did with Israel also.
Do you understand what a 'covenant' is? It is unbreakable from God's end.
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"The problem with this is that there is only one requirement for salvation: to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. The works that are commanded are for blessings and eternal reward. Not salvation."
>>> This is not true. There are blessings and eternal rewards based upon performance but that is not all. You have to be doing what God said until the end to have eternal life. Eternal life is also called a reward:
Col 3:23 And whatever you may do, work from the soul as to the Lord and not to men,
Col 3:24 knowing that from the Lord you shall receive the reward of the inheritance. For [A.K.A. BECAUSE] you serve the Lord Christ.
Col 3:25 But the one doing wrong will receive what he did wrong, and there is no partiality.
Contrast:
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance is of Law, it is no more of promise; but God has given it to Abraham through promise.
I'm sure your way of reconciling this is just ridiculous. Anyway, clearly Paul called the inheritance a REWARD too even though he also called it a gift. Then he said receiving this reward is BECAUSE of serving the Lord. This means the inheritance is also works based to a certain degree. Whether you like it or not. Notice also, Paul, talking to believers, clearly says those that sin will be punished for it because there is no partiality with God. Just like he says in Romans 2. But in your Gospel God is partial because you have special favor merely because of your status in Christ because of your believing in the Gospel even if you live no better than an atheist devil.
I mean, seriously, how do you guys sleep at night twisting the Word of God so bad?
>>> This is not true. There are blessings and eternal rewards based upon performance but that is not all. You have to be doing what God said until the end to have eternal life. Eternal life is also called a reward:
Col 3:23 And whatever you may do, work from the soul as to the Lord and not to men,
Col 3:24 knowing that from the Lord you shall receive the reward of the inheritance. For [A.K.A. BECAUSE] you serve the Lord Christ.
Col 3:25 But the one doing wrong will receive what he did wrong, and there is no partiality.
Contrast:
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance is of Law, it is no more of promise; but God has given it to Abraham through promise.
I'm sure your way of reconciling this is just ridiculous. Anyway, clearly Paul called the inheritance a REWARD too even though he also called it a gift. Then he said receiving this reward is BECAUSE of serving the Lord. This means the inheritance is also works based to a certain degree. Whether you like it or not. Notice also, Paul, talking to believers, clearly says those that sin will be punished for it because there is no partiality with God. Just like he says in Romans 2. But in your Gospel God is partial because you have special favor merely because of your status in Christ because of your believing in the Gospel even if you live no better than an atheist devil.
I mean, seriously, how do you guys sleep at night twisting the Word of God so bad?
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God punishing a believer with Hell for failing to keep the commandments is faithful on his part. Again, you are assuming that this covenant is unconditional.
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"To be saved, we must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. Nothing else.
If any kind of works are required, then we've earned it. Because of grace, salvation cannot be earned. Therefore, NO WORKS will save us."
>>> Keep telling yourself that, sir.
If any kind of works are required, then we've earned it. Because of grace, salvation cannot be earned. Therefore, NO WORKS will save us."
>>> Keep telling yourself that, sir.
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"Christ hold's up His covenants always. He did with Israel also."
>>> Yeah and look at what God's faithfulness did to most of Israel. The carnal elect is the type and shadow of the spiritual elect, sir. It is no surprise if you go and look at what happened to Israel the in the past the same mistakes are being made by most of the Christians. Solomon was right to say what has been will be again.
>>> Yeah and look at what God's faithfulness did to most of Israel. The carnal elect is the type and shadow of the spiritual elect, sir. It is no surprise if you go and look at what happened to Israel the in the past the same mistakes are being made by most of the Christians. Solomon was right to say what has been will be again.
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FreeGrace2
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I said this:
"If any kind of works are required, then we've earned it. Because of grace, salvation cannot be earned. Therefore, NO WORKS will save us."
They found out the HARD WAY that works won't get anyone into God's kingdom.
"If any kind of works are required, then we've earned it. Because of grace, salvation cannot be earned. Therefore, NO WORKS will save us."
Neither of these passages is about receiving eternal life. Grace PRECLUDES earning salvation. Or didn't you know?
The key here isn't what they did, but what they didn't do; believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, or they would have been saved.
They found out the HARD WAY that works won't get anyone into God's kingdom.
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"Matt 7:21
Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
The key here isn't what they did, but what they didn't do; believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, or they would have been saved.
They found out the HARD WAY that works won't get anyone into God's kingdom."
And of course, more ignorance of the context of Matthew 5-7.
Just look at chapter 7 itself:
Mat 7:1 Do not judge, that you may not be judged;
Mat 7:2 for with whatever judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with whatever measure you measure, it will be measured again to you.
Mat 7:3 But why do you look on the twig that is in the eye of your brother, but do not see the log in your eye?
Mat 7:4 Or how will you say to your brother, Allow me to cast out the twig from your eye; and behold, the log is in your eye!
Mat 7:5 Hypocrite, first cast the log out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to cast the twig out of the eye of your brother.
Mat 7:6 Do not give that which is holy to the dogs, nor throw your pearls before the pigs, that they should not trample them with their feet, and turning they charge you.
Mat 7:7 Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
Mat 7:8 For each one that asks receives, and the one that seeks finds; and to the one knocking, it will be opened.
Mat 7:9 Or what man of you is there, if his son should ask a loaf of him, will he give him a stone?
Mat 7:10 And if he should ask a fish, will he give him a snake?
Mat 7:11 Therefore, if you, being evil, know to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in Heaven give good things to those that ask Him?
Mat 7:12 Therefore, all things, whatever you desire that men should do to you, so also you should do to them; for this is the Law and the Prophets.
Mat 7:13 Go in through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are the ones entering in through it.
Mat 7:14 For narrow is the gate, and constricted is the way that leads away into life, and few are the ones finding it.
Mat 7:15 But beware of the false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inside they are plundering wolves.
Mat 7:16 From their fruits you shall know them. Do they gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?
Mat 7:17 So every good tree produces good fruits, but the corrupt tree produces evil fruits.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot produce evil fruits, nor a corrupt tree produce good fruits.
Mat 7:19 Every tree not producing good fruit is cut down and is thrown into fire.
Mat 7:20 Then surely from their fruits you shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of Heaven, but the ones who do the will of My Father in Heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name do many works of power?
Mat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; "depart from Me, those working lawlessness!" Psa. 6:8
Mat 7:24 Then everyone who hears these Words [all his commandments like the ones here in this whole Sermon on the Mount] from Me, and does them, I will compare him to a wise man who built his house on the rock;
Mat 7:25 and the rain came down, and the floods came up, and the winds blew, and fell against that house; but it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
Mat 7:26 And everyone who hears these Words of Mine, and who does not do them, he shall be compared to a foolish man who built his house on the sand;
Mat 7:27 and the rain came down, and the floods came up, and the winds blew and beat against that house; and it fell, and great was the collapse of it.
Mat 7:28 And it happened, when Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were astonished at His doctrine.
Mat 7:29 For He was teaching them as having authority, and not as the scribes.
Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
The key here isn't what they did, but what they didn't do; believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, or they would have been saved.
They found out the HARD WAY that works won't get anyone into God's kingdom."
And of course, more ignorance of the context of Matthew 5-7.
Just look at chapter 7 itself:
Mat 7:1 Do not judge, that you may not be judged;
Mat 7:2 for with whatever judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with whatever measure you measure, it will be measured again to you.
Mat 7:3 But why do you look on the twig that is in the eye of your brother, but do not see the log in your eye?
Mat 7:4 Or how will you say to your brother, Allow me to cast out the twig from your eye; and behold, the log is in your eye!
Mat 7:5 Hypocrite, first cast the log out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to cast the twig out of the eye of your brother.
Mat 7:6 Do not give that which is holy to the dogs, nor throw your pearls before the pigs, that they should not trample them with their feet, and turning they charge you.
Mat 7:7 Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
Mat 7:8 For each one that asks receives, and the one that seeks finds; and to the one knocking, it will be opened.
Mat 7:9 Or what man of you is there, if his son should ask a loaf of him, will he give him a stone?
Mat 7:10 And if he should ask a fish, will he give him a snake?
Mat 7:11 Therefore, if you, being evil, know to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in Heaven give good things to those that ask Him?
Mat 7:12 Therefore, all things, whatever you desire that men should do to you, so also you should do to them; for this is the Law and the Prophets.
Mat 7:13 Go in through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are the ones entering in through it.
Mat 7:14 For narrow is the gate, and constricted is the way that leads away into life, and few are the ones finding it.
Mat 7:15 But beware of the false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inside they are plundering wolves.
Mat 7:16 From their fruits you shall know them. Do they gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?
Mat 7:17 So every good tree produces good fruits, but the corrupt tree produces evil fruits.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot produce evil fruits, nor a corrupt tree produce good fruits.
Mat 7:19 Every tree not producing good fruit is cut down and is thrown into fire.
Mat 7:20 Then surely from their fruits you shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of Heaven, but the ones who do the will of My Father in Heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name do many works of power?
Mat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; "depart from Me, those working lawlessness!" Psa. 6:8
Mat 7:24 Then everyone who hears these Words [all his commandments like the ones here in this whole Sermon on the Mount] from Me, and does them, I will compare him to a wise man who built his house on the rock;
Mat 7:25 and the rain came down, and the floods came up, and the winds blew, and fell against that house; but it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
Mat 7:26 And everyone who hears these Words of Mine, and who does not do them, he shall be compared to a foolish man who built his house on the sand;
Mat 7:27 and the rain came down, and the floods came up, and the winds blew and beat against that house; and it fell, and great was the collapse of it.
Mat 7:28 And it happened, when Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were astonished at His doctrine.
Mat 7:29 For He was teaching them as having authority, and not as the scribes.
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