The lie of eternal security refuted once and for all.

[-57]

Thanks for asking. I've done this many times, but apparently you missed all of those times.

1. Election of Christ: an individual election
1 Pet 2:6 Isa 28:16 Isa 42:1 Luke 9:35 Luke 23:35

2. Election of Angels: a group or corporate election
1 Tim 5:21

3. Election of Israel: a group or corporate election
Amos 3:2 Deut 7:6 Acts 13:17

4. Election of believers: a group or corporate election
Eph 1:4a [note: this verse doesn’t say that God chose who would be believers, but that He chose believers…to be holy and blameless]
1 Peter 2:9

5. The Election of the 12 Disciples: a group or corporate election
John 15:16

6. The Election of Paul: an individual election
Acts 9:15

Now, please point out which of these 6 categories that were elected to salvation.


I've done my homework, unlike some here. The word for "chose" is completely different than the verb "to elect". According to the International Study Bible Encyclopedia, election is defined as being chosen or selected for special privilege and service.

That definition fits all the 6 categories.


The first question is to ask; chosen for what? While at first glance it appears to indicate being chosen for salvation, we must face the final parenthetical phrase "with it eternal glory". This is more than salvation. And Paul wastes no time in getting to that subject in v.12 when he tells us that those who endure in their faith will reign with Christ, but those who don't endure, won't.

So, the "elect" here are those who will be chosen at the Judgmenet Seat of Christ to rule with Christ forever.

But even if one doesn't accept my explanation, it is clear that Paul endures everything so that the elect "may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus".

This does not demand that God has chosen or decided who will believe, but that those who believe will obtain salvation.

You really didn't address what I presented....OK, you provided 6 "themes" which for the most part I disagree with... then you tried to refute 2 Thes 2:15 which contained "because God has chosen you from the beginning to be saved" Chosen and elect don't have to be the same word as elect...it means the same thing, in fact it clearly indicated Gods CHOICE for salvation.

What you need to do is add 7th to your list because the bible is very clear God chooses.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You appear to be using that verse out of context.

OK, so what's the context for Isa 1:18-20?

I believe it is much deeper and richer than you speak of.

Which is totally different than being out of context. So, which is it; was my use of the passage out of context or just not "deep enough"?

In this instance God is pronouncing a serious woe upon the nation of Judah. God is speaking to an entire nation and not individuals.

Please show from the actual verses that God wasn't offering 2 choices: to consent and obey or to refuse and rebel. How isn't that a choice?

It is not about personal salvation and free-will

I never said it was about salvation. But it sure as shootin' is about making choices. Which are free choices.

So, please show how God's request to reason with people doesn't involve these 2 choices.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Should I change it to the God patting people on the butt saying, get along. Perhaps life will line up and you'll choose me theology.

You haven't been close in any of your silly attempts to pigeon hole my theology.

But, why haven't you dealt with the 2 passages that support my view? Beause they don't support yours?

 

[FreeGrace2]

You really didn't address what I presented....OK, you provided 6 "themes" which for the most part I disagree with…

So, you prefer "themes" to categories. So what? And since you disagree with my themes, why didn't you address any of them to prove that my claims that none were chosen for salvation? Weren't able? That'd be my guess.

then you tried to refute 2 Thes 2:15 which contained "because God has chosen you from the beginning to be saved"

I didn't refute the verse. I refuted your use of the verse.

Chosen and elect don't have to be the same word as elect...it means the same thing, in fact it clearly indicated Gods CHOICE for salvation.

So you're going to ignore what the ISBE says about election? Why?

Actually, God's choice for salvation is those who believe.

Here is a verse that is clear enough.
1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

This is God's choice for salvation: "to save those who believe".

What you need to do is add 7th to your list because the bible is very clear God chooses.

And what would the 7th theme or category be?

 

[-57]

And what would the 7th theme or category be?

Predestination

 

[FreeGrace2]

Predestination

So, what verse teaches that one is predestinated to salvation?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

So, what verse teaches that one is predestinated to salvation?

Here we go again . . .

 

[Rick Otto]

Eph1:4
Important enough to remember.

 

[iron2iron]

Good. Then we have no problem.

From that "particular initial time", when a person passed from death to life, out of condemnation forever, was sealed by the Holy Spirit, and seated with Christ in glory -- that person was saved forever.

I too believe in OSAS.

Again - we have no problem apparently.

Perhaps you think that Reformed believers like myself think that a person who hears the Word of God need not respond in true faith to the preaching of the gospel to be saved.

If that's the case, you need not worry about us.

No one - even the most Calvinistic among us - believes that we have grounds to believe that anyone who hears the gospel is saved without a personal heartfelt response to that gospel (elect or not).

Thank You for the kind response, my only goal is to make people aware that faith has nothing to do with trusting or believing God
Calvinists do not believe in salvation through election alone. They believe that a person who is among the elect and predestined to believe will indeed believe sooner or later.

That is precisely why almost every major theater for evangelism around the world, that was opened up in the 19th century, was pioneered by someone who believed in the basic doctrines of grace preached by Reformed believers.

That is why believers in the doctrines of grace - whether we are talking about Jesus, Paul, Spurgeon, Whitefield, Edwards, Kennedy, MacArthur or any other such teachers - are among the most ardent evangelists.

The faith possessed by new believers will be evidenced by obedience to God (works). Everyone believes that. There is no need to teach Calvinists about works following - if that is your purpose in all this.

 

[iron2iron]

He who has the Son has life. He who believes in Christ has life.
About he who does not?
36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

You're presuming on scripture your own understanding about the law written on gentiles hearts. No flesh is justified by the Law of God, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 2
v12 gentiles are a, jews are b.

a. For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law,
b. and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law

13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

THEIR THOUGHTS, notice it says their thoughts accuse or they excuse themselves to God for their actions, this is no justification.
BUT, then it says God will judge them by the gospel of Christ, not by their thoughts.


Only God can see the heart, so who wrote the Law on the Gentiles hearts, where did the Law come from? It is a work of the Holy Spirit. Why, because their hearts were soft. We are only justified by Faith, and saving faith only occurs if the heart has been prepared, not by God but by the individual. Read Jeremiah 4:3-4 and thank you for being so respectful, that gives me the upmost respect for you. This is good, Iron sharpens Iron.

 

[iron2iron]

Is there any biblical reason why not?

Yes, because the Holy Spirit is the one who convicts our hearts. Do you think God is more concerned about a white man in a Protestant Church than He is about a poor little pygmy is the Congo? We know God is not a respecter of any one. God gives every one a chance. God Bless

 

[Rick Otto]

Yes, because the Holy Spirit is the one who convicts our hearts. Do you think God is more concerned about a white man in a Protestant Church than He is about a poor little pygmy is the Congo? We know God is not a respecter of any one. God gives every one a chance. God Bless

I haven't been following very closely, so I'm not sure what the disagreement here is about. I have agreed with you both on some things.
This assertion I concur with, and I would sorely appreciate if you could agree with me that psalm 19 verify it.

Oh, wait... I think I see it, now.
He gives everyone a chance, but He elects to give mercy to a few.
I know, I know,... you think He respects the so called freedom of a will He Himself created, am I right?

I respect the dignity that aspires to, but in the role of Creator, God by definition cannot be unaware of or, lack foreknowledge, of every moment in the life He designs.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Do you have a comment on my post or did you just quote it again because it was so spot on that you wanted everyone to be sure to see it?

 

[Rick Otto]

Do you have a comment on my post or did you just quote it again because it was so spot on that you wanted everyone to be sure to see it?

He may have gotten distracted. That just happened to me on the UK/US gun violence thread I saw in New Posts.

 

[iron2iron]

I haven't been following very closely, so I'm not sure what the disagreement here is about. I have agreed with you both on some things.
This assertion I concur with, and I would sorely appreciate if you could agree with me that psalm 19 verify it.

Oh, wait... I think I see it, now.
He gives everyone a chance, but He elects to give mercy to a few.
I know, I know,... you think He respects the so called freedom of a will He Himself created, am I right?

I respect the dignity that aspires to, but in the role of Creator, God by definition cannot be unaware of or, lack foreknowledge, of every moment in the life He designs.

You are right, God is totally sovereign. Maybe He is so sovereign that He can do whatever He Likes and maybe give us a choice. Do you believe that Christ only paid for the sins of the elect or the whole world?

 

[iron2iron]

He may have gotten distracted. That just happened to me on the UK/US gun violence thread I saw in New Posts.

The only ones with guns in the UK is the cops right? Are the cops robbing people in Merry Ole England now? What's the world coming to? LOL

 

[Rick Otto]

The only ones with guns in the UK is the cops right? Are the cops robbing people in Merry Ole England now? What's the world coming to? LOL

Naw,just some limey on a high horse.

 

[iron2iron]

So if obeying the Law gets one to heaven, then why did Jesus Christ die for our sins?

It's not about obeying the law, they did not know the law. Paul said the Gentiles not having the law. They didn't even know it or have it. So how did it get written on their hearts? Who is the only one who can see the heart? God. The Holy Spirit wrote it on their heart because their heart had been prepared. Read Jeremiah 4:3-4 and also Acts 5:32 (this is the ones that God gives the Holy Spirit to)

 

[Rick Otto]

You are right, God is totally sovereign. Maybe He is so sovereign that He can do whatever He Likes and maybe give us a choice. Do you believe that Christ only paid for the sins of the elect or the whole world?

Only the elect, who are are found in the whole world. When "the whole world" was written, it did not intend to mean every individual, because it was written in contradistinction to what was the general understanding at the time which was, salvation belongs to Israel - no gentiles allowed.

Of course we are given a choice. But we are not free to not choose. If my will was truly free, I would be God.

 

[Rick Otto]

It's not about obeying the law, they did not know the law. Paul said the Gentiles not having the law. They didn't even know it or have it. So how did it get written on their hearts? Who is the only one who can see the heart? God. The Holy Spirit wrote it on their heart because their heart had been prepared. Read Jeremiah 4:3-4 and also Acts 5:32 (this is the ones that God gives the Holy Spirit to)

Prepared by His choice, not ours. That choice was made before creation commenced. Eph1:4