The lie of eternal security refuted once and for all.

[sdowney717]

'Cause I disagree lol.

About what? That the old covenant is kaput?

 

[LaSorcia]

About what? That the old covenant is kaput?

I don't like to debate. Take what you like from my post and leave the rest.
I don't think anyone is going to have every point of theology right in this lifetime.

 

[sdowney717]

I don't like to debate. Take what you like from my post and leave the rest.
I don't think anyone is going to have every point of theology right in this lifetime.

Ok, you know for a Jewish person to be saved, they must become a part of the New Covenant.
The early church had trouble with what they called 'false brethren', who were jewish believers who said new gentile converts had to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses.

Luke 22:20
Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup isthe new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

 

[Licoricepup]

I take offense that the website linked in the OP incorporated a beautiful owl for their Satanic false teaching.
The scriptures and Jesus' teachings are clear.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

Personally, I find it reprehensible that anyone would attempt to say Jesus lied! No one who is a Saint, a Christian, renewed with the holy spirit indwelling, is a sinner or makes a habit of sinning anymore.
Those who want to beat the drum over and over and over again as they march up and down the path of the fallen one and scream, YOU'RE NOT REALLY SAVED FOREVER YOU KNOW! Are speaking of their own death and they're trying to garner converts to that lie.
I believe them! They're not saved!Those who make a habit of sinning and think that is proof eternal security is a lie are absolutely right of themselves.

However, they are not and never will speak for Jesus Christ! He died to deliver the truth. The liars that hope to corrupt that will see how wrong they were when they suffer the second death. And they earned that because their false teachings and lying tongues talked them into it.

 

[Jesus First]

I take offense that the website linked in the OP incorporated a beautiful owl for their Satanic false teaching.

Sister Licoricepup,

What makes it a "satanic false teaching"? It is because you say so?

The scriptures and Jesus' teachings are clear.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

And what is your point with this verse? Have you considered the context and the grammar?

Personally, I find it reprehensible that anyone would attempt to say Jesus lied! No one who is a Saint, a Christian, renewed with the holy spirit indwelling, is a sinner or makes a habit of sinning anymore.

Who is saying that Jesus lied? Do you have proof that once someone is in the family of God they are guaranteed an exception from falling away?

In Christ!

 

[brotherjerry]

I already said what I think this parable means and my understanding of the elder son I already told you.
However you keep rejecting that the guy was dead. If your dead to the father then your not a saved person.

Dead as in dead not alive. You go teaching the guy was not dead, and people ought to notice it says dead in the text. whether they will, I don't know. I have heard plenty of odd and weird sermons over the years, and people never seem to object at least publicly.

Slow your roll Downey, I am not trying to be argumentative or anything. I have expressed what I think the parable is not about. I have expressed that I really do not know what it is about. This would indicate that I am not rejecting anything, but working to reconcile what I perceive as issues in the parable as far as claiming it is a parable about salvation.

I do not minimize the role of the older brother in this parable. I think it is silly to take any parable that Jesus said and think he spoke words that were a waste of time, not only silly but it can be dangerous to think any word in the Bible has no meaning. I consider every word inspired in the Bible there for a purpose by God. Nothing is erroneous, spurious, or irrelevant in my opinion.

That is why I feel the older son is important to the overall spiritual truth being brought out in the parable. If the father is to represent God, we have to wonder what the two son's represent. If one is a sinner that is lost and then found, what is the other to be considered? We simply cannot ignore him, the father sure did not.

If you hold your position that the eldest son was lost, then he was never found either. Plus does that indicate that you have to go your own way in the world to get lost so that you can be found, or are you saying that the oldest son while still with the father was also lost? Again I have to ask, what equates to salvation in this parable? Is it just the matter of being found? because the eldest son was never lost. Is it being part of the family, because again the eldest son never left the family.

I can understand if you do not wish to discuss it further. Perhaps others may wish to delve deeper into it. I know I will be starting that study shortly. Probably after the Christmas Holidays.

 

[brotherjerry]

About what? That the old covenant is kaput?

Actually if you subscribe to the missing 7 years of Daniel then the old Covenant has only been temporarily suspended and will resume during the tribulation period. That is if you subscribe to that doctrine.

just my two bits

 

[Licoricepup]

Sister Licoricepup,

What makes it a "satanic false teaching"? It is because you say so?

If you call Jesus testament a lie, I'm not your sister.
The scriptures say so. I said the scriptures say so. That's what I said.

 

[Jesus First]

If you call Jesus testament a lie, I'm not your sister.
The scriptures say so. I said the scriptures say so. That's what I said.

Sorry, I'm not certain I understand your post. If you believe in Jesus Christ as revealed in the Bible, you are my sister.

 

[PapaZoom]

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/eternal-security.htm

Seems the OP posted this and then went AWOL. This site is cluttered with false teachings. Jesus never disowned Peter. Peter did not need to be saved again. Peter learned a huge lesson by failing Jesus. He did not really fall away. Peter responded not in faith, but in fear. I suspect that was necessary for Peter to learn something of himself. Jesus even said to Peter later that the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Peter was spiritually willing to die with Jesus. Bus as Jesus said, his flesh was weak.

74 Then he began to call down curses, and he swore to them, “I don’t know the man!”

Immediately a rooster crowed. 75 Then Peter remembered the word Jesus had spoken: “Before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times.” And he went outside and wept bitterly.

Peter did not fall away. He immediately realized what he had done. Couldn't take it back. He didn't just "feel bad" but Peter wept bitterly. That's some serious regret.

In Mark 16:6 we read this: “Don’t be alarmed,” he said. “You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him.7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.’”

Peter is singled out here. Why? Could it be because Peter thinks himself a failure and that Jesus would want nothing to do with him now? And yet God has other plans for Peter and reassures him that HIS love for Peter has not faded a bit.

This OP is so misguided and the above gives just one example why such sites should be completely ignored. The people behind this particular site lack knowledge. They are blow-hards. Their brand of the NT message is not good news. Anytime the gospel is presented with strings and legalism, run away fast.

 

[Jesus First]

Seems the OP posted this and then went AWOL.

Hi brother PapaZoom,

This has no bearing on the truth or falsehood of the doctrine known as eternal security. Not that you are making this claim.

This site is cluttered with false teachings.

I wasn't able to find a reference to Peter on the website. Can you provide the link, please?

I don't know if Peter lost his salvation. He did repent and was restored back to fellowship. Jesus warned those who deny Him that He will deny them. I take the words of Jesus seriously. Do you believe the words of Jesus where He warned those who deny Him that they will be denied?

So you found one point of disagreement and this makes it cluttered with false teaching? Please elaborate.

Jesus never disowned Peter.

Agreed. Jesus is always faithful. We don't want to confuse His faithfulness with our unfaithfulness (not saying you are). Most of the Jews who left Egypt after celebrating the first Passover and following Moses ended up falling in the wilderness (Hebrews 3:17). This was not because God was unfaithful, correct?

Peter did not need to be saved again.

Agreed. I don't find in the Bible that once we sin that we need to be saved, baptized, etc., all over again. I've never heard of an Arminian making this argument.

Peter learned a huge lesson by failing Jesus. He did not really fall away. Peter responded not in faith, but in fear.

Agreed. Peter learned a great lesson. We all should take this to heart. When we are puffed up and think we are strong, we are weak.

I don't know if Peter fell away. I expect he did; but what is important is that he repented. What a gracious, loving God we have!

This OP is so misguided and the above gives just one example why such sites should be completely ignored.

The example you provided of Peter is weak. So Christians can deny Christ and go to heaven? Why did Jesus warn Peter unless denial is a serious sin?

The people behind this particular site lack knowledge. They are blow-hards. Their brand of the NT message is not good news. Anytime the gospel is presented with strings and legalism, run away fast.

I don't agree with one or more positions that the website takes. But I'm not in a position to condemn them. You have not provided evidence (in my opinion) that rises to the level of your accusations. How does this website present the gospel "with strings and legalism".

In Christ –who deserves all honor and glory today and forever!

 

[PapaZoom]

Hi brother PapaZoom,
This has no bearing on the truth or falsehood of the doctrine known as eternal security. Not that you are making this claim.

Of course. But I did find it odd that the original poster vanished after starting the thread.

I wasn't able to find a reference to Peter on the website. Can you provide the link, please?

It's right on the first page. http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/eternal-security.htm

I don't know if Peter lost his salvation. He did repent and was restored back to fellowship. Jesus warned those who deny Him that He will deny them. I take the words of Jesus seriously. Do you believe the words of Jesus where He warned those who deny Him that they will be denied?

Peter did not lose his salvation any more than he lost his faith in Jesus. He did learn a valuable lesson about his own personal weakness. His confidence in himself needed to be shattered. Jesus knew Peter would deny Him but Jesus also knew that Peter would return. Peter's remorse for his denial was immediate and intense. God judges the heart. Peter's heart was broken. He not only lost his Lord but he'd failed Him and failed himself. In his flesh, Peter was weak. Later, Peter would die for his faith. What changed? Peter became strong in the spirit. Only a work from God can provide such a change.

Peter didn't stop believing. He was cowardly yes. But in spite of this fact, he was always secure in his salvation. Luke 22:32 Jesus knew. Jesus died on Friday and Peter ran to the tomb on Sunday. He never lost faith. What he did lose was confidence in himself. That was a good outcome.

So you found one point of disagreement and this makes it cluttered with false teaching? Please elaborate.

No, I picked one at random and commented on it. Have you read the site and if so, do you agree with it?

Agreed. Jesus is always faithful. We don't want to confuse His faithfulness with our unfaithfulness (not saying you are). Most of the Jews who left Egypt after celebrating the first Passover and following Moses ended up falling in the wilderness (Hebrews 3:17). This was not because God was unfaithful, correct?

I agree but don't see any support here for denying the perseverance of the saints.

Agreed. I don't find in the Bible that once we sin that we need to be saved, baptized, etc., all over again. I've never heard of an Arminian making this argument.

The OP seems to be making that argument.

Agreed. Peter learned a great lesson. We all should take this to heart. When we are puffed up and think we are strong, we are weak.

That is the whole point of Peter's failing.

I don't know if Peter fell away. I expect he did; but what is important is that he repented. What a gracious, loving God we have!

We assume he repented. He clearly had regret. The Bible is clear on that. I think the assumption that he "changed his mind" is correct but it's more than that. Peter saw himself for what he truly was. In his arrogance and pride, he claimed he'd stay strong and even die for Jesus. He got to see himself for exactly how he would respond in a crisis situation.

The example you provided of Peter is weak. So Christians can deny Christ and go to heaven? Why did Jesus warn Peter unless denial is a serious sin?

I don't think it's weak at all. And what does it mean to deny Christ? Jesus warned Peter because Peter had to learn from this failing. Jesus also told Peter that when he returned, he was to strengthen his brothers. Peter needed to experience this failing so he could get his eyes off himself and his false sense of his own strengths.

I don't agree with one or more positions that the website takes. But I'm not in a position to condemn them. You have not provided evidence (in my opinion) that rises to the level of your accusations. How does this website present the gospel "with strings and legalism".

You must not have read his site. I'm not interested in refuting every single bit on nonsense Dan Corner spouts. He's wrong about a lot of things. He has a huge hangup on eternal security. Here's what he says about people like me, who believe in the perseverance of the saints: "[they] teach a license for immorality but periodically tries to hide it. In other words, [they aren't] always open and honest about [their] own theology. But how could [they] do better than teach a license for immorality since [they are] Calvinists and therefore believes in the perseverance of the saints (eternal security)?

Utter nonsense. Calvinists don't teach a license for immorality.

In Christ –who deserves all honor and glory today and forever!

Finally something we can agree upon.

 

[Jesus First]

It's right on the first page. http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/eternal-security.htm

Brother Papazoom,

So it was right in front of my nose and I didn't see it, LOL!

I don't agree with the position taken by this website that believers have to be saved, over and over again. I don't find this practice Biblical.

Peter did not lose his salvation any more than he lost his faith in Jesus. He did learn a valuable lesson about his own personal weakness. His confidence in himself needed to be shattered. Jesus knew Peter would deny Him but Jesus also knew that Peter would return. Peter's remorse for his denial was immediate and intense. God judges the heart. Peter's heart was broken. He not only lost his Lord but he'd failed Him and failed himself. In his flesh, Peter was weak. Later, Peter would die for his faith. What changed? Peter became strong in the spirit. Only a work from God can provide such a change.

Peter didn't stop believing. He was cowardly yes. But in spite of this fact, he was always secure in his salvation. Luke 22:32 Jesus knew. Jesus died on Friday and Peter ran to the tomb on Sunday. He never lost faith. What he did lose was confidence in himself. That was a good outcome.

No, I picked one at random and commented on it. Have you read the site and if so, do you agree with it?

I've visited his website a few times in the past. He is considered an extreme Arminian. One unconfessed sin sends a believer to hell.

While believers should not take sin lightly, and there is a sin that leads to death, I believe that our sins are covered in the blood of Jesus as long as we walk in the light (1 John 1:7). His position again is extreme and not a norm for Arminians, in my opinion.

I agree but don't see any support here for denying the perseverance of the saints.

The OP seems to be making that argument.

I don't know the OP. I agree with you that perseverance is required. I don't agree with the Reformed teaching that all who fail to persevere were never saved. Undeniably, some had the walk & talk but never had a genuine faith in Christ.

That is the whole point of Peter's failing.

We assume he repented. He clearly had regret. The Bible is clear on that. I think the assumption that he "changed his mind" is correct but it's more than that. Peter saw himself for what he truly was. In his arrogance and pride, he claimed he'd stay strong and even die for Jesus. He got to see himself for exactly how he would respond in a crisis situation.

Agree 100%

You must not have read his site. I'm not interested in refuting every single bit on nonsense Dan Corner spouts. He's wrong about a lot of things. He has a huge hangup on eternal security.

I'm not very familiar with his website. He has taken an Arminian position that doesn't represent my view.

Here's what he says about people like me, who believe in the perseverance of the saints: "[they] teach a license for immorality but periodically tries to hide it. In other words, [they aren't] always open and honest about [their] own theology. But how could [they] do better than teach a license for immorality since [they are] Calvinists and therefore believes in the perseverance of the saints (eternal security)?

Utter nonsense. Calvinists don't teach a license for immorality.

I agree that Calvinist's don't teach a license to sin. I consider most Calvinist's, as brothers and sisters in Christ.

I was wrong to challenge you the way I did in my last post. I was not aware that Corner communicates this falsehood concerning Reformed believers. So I offer my sincere apologies.

Finally something we can agree upon.

I believe we agree on far more than this.

Thanks for responding in love. Your tone reflects the Love of Christ!

The greatest future aspect of glory will be the presence of Jesus Christ!

Keep the faith!

 

[Marvin Knox]

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/eternal-security.htm

The website like your thread heading is a joke.

I've discussed these things for a long time and this is probably near the top of my most ridiculous arguments list.

You might be new here. I wouldn't know.

But come on. You've gotta do better than this.

Cool handle by the way. Too bad you don't hold a candle to the original John Knox.

 

[corinth77777]

Oh, yeah, because Dan Corner's word would definitely be the end all be all on a Biblical subject.

Why are there so many people here lately so seemingly desperate to disprove OSAS, anyway? Why is anyone who disagrees with it so sure of themselves that everyone who believes in eternal security are just looking for an excuse to sin?

I think because if one is saved....why do anything else?....mmm maybe that's the thought at hand.

 

[Job8]

Do you have proof that once someone is in the family of God they are guaranteed an exception from falling away

Why don t you meditate on this passage and digest it*Q*
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Pet 1:3-5).

What does it mean to be *kept by the power of God* *Q* Those who are in the family of God have been *begotten* by God.

 

[Jesus First]

Why don t you meditate on this passage and digest it*Q*
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Pet 1:3-5).

What does it mean to be *kept by the power of God* *Q* Those who are in the family of God have been *begotten* by God.

Hi brother Job8,

And how does this passage disprove my challenge without bringing assumptions to the text?

The passage you quoted is written to those who have been "born again to a living home" (v. 3; ESV). The word "living" is a Greek present tense verb here and it describes an action in progress at the present time. This means they are in an ongoing faith ("living") relationship with their savior. It's not contextually describing those were in the faith and left the faith. Those who are in the faith (presently) have "an inheritance that is imperishable, undefined, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, ...." (v. 4a).

This passage doesn't exegetically state that those who love God are guaranteed to continue to love God in the future. It doesn't comment on this without reading into the text.

There is further evidence that the context is about those who are in an active (present) relationship with their Savior. Please consider verse 8-9:
"Though you have not seen him, you love [word "love" is a present tense Greek verb describing an ongoing "love"] him. Though you do not now see him, you believe [Greek present tense particle; describing present belief] in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, 9 obtaining [right now!] the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:8-9.

Brother Job8, this passage you referenced in 1 Peter 1, gives us who believe great assurance and encouragement in the present. They are precious verses to encourage us as we daily run the race where Jesus is waiting at the finish line.

Keep the faith in Jesus! He is worthy!

 

[corinth77777]

Why don t you meditate on this passage and digest it*Q*
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Pet 1:3-5).

What does it mean to be *kept by the power of God* *Q* Those who are in the family of God have been *begotten* by God.

Kept....through faith

 

[Job8]

Kept....through faith

Exactly. And once we believe and are born again, we continue to believe that salvation is in Christ alone, and the Holy Spirit continues to indwell us.

Something which we easily forget is that when a sinner becomes a saint, the Holy Spirit places that person into the Body of Christ (1 Cor 12:12,13). This means that you are a "member" of Christ, and if you happen to be his metaphorical "little finger", then you remain that member for eternity. Christ will not allow His own Body (the Church) to be dismembered.

 

[True Science]

Why are there so many people here lately so seemingly desperate to disprove OSAS, anyway? Why is anyone who disagrees with it so sure of themselves that everyone who believes in eternal security are just looking for an excuse to sin?

Because generally it is the only good explanation. Sure some might just genuinely be in error. But once they have looked at the other side sufficiently there is no excuse for them not to see the truth. They will not keep on trying to argue against it over and over again until the end. They will realize they were wrong, repent, and walk in the light.