The lie of eternal security refuted once and for all.

True Science · Jan 23, 2016

"Christ will not allow His own Body (the Church) to be dismembered."

Why not? This is not Scriptural (ex. John 15 and Romans 11). Christ taught if something causes one to sin, cut it off. Christ would practice what he preaches. Therefore if a member of his Body remaining in him causes him to sin, he will cut it off.

jimmyjimmy · Jan 25, 2016

Living with the uncertainty of whether or not you are or will be accepted by God does not produce a life of: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness. . . It produces the opposite: fear, depression, anxiety, intolerance, animosity. . . I know firsthand.

The other fruit of this unfortunate self-salvation is that it makes one very judgmental. It must. The only way these people bolster themselves up is by comparing themselves to others. They must convince themselves that they are OK, and they do that by comparing themselves to their neighbor.

Albion · Jan 25, 2016

thatbrian said:
Living with the uncertainty of whether or not you are or will be accepted by God does not produce a life of: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness. . . It produces the opposite: fear, depression, anxiety, intolerance, animosity. . . I know firsthand.

IMHO, you've raised an important point here that usually is not addressed in such discussions. The churches that teach 'works righteousness' naturally also teach that there is no security.

You strive to please God, but if you fall, you are lost--until you go to confession or otherwise repent--and then you are back in business. In the case of an unexpected death, you may be in the "state of grace" at that moment or, if you're not, you'll enter the afterlife as an unsaved person regardless of all the works you've done previously. And if you believe in a Purgatory, you'll enter into punishment even if you did die in the "state of grace!"

Anyone who takes this theology to heart lives his whole life not knowing whether he'll hit it right or not at the moment of death. Incidentally, this may account for the popularity of the belief that some saint, if prayed to in just the correct way, will keep you from kicking off without a chance to repent before it's too late.

There are many who will defend it (because they're defending their church), but most do not actually believe it. They think "I've been good" in some general way and that this is sufficient. That's because they don't actually want to believe the details of the salvation process that they've been taught in church. It's too scary and uncertain.

They either adhere to the system and live their whole lives not knowing if they'll be saved or not, or else they shove it to the side and hope for the best.

brotherjerry · Jan 25, 2016

^AMEN

SarahsKnight · Jan 25, 2016

Albion said:
IMHO, you've raised an important point here that usually is not addressed in such discussions. The churches that teach 'works righteousness' naturally also teach that there is no security.

You strive to please God, but if you fall, you are lost--until you go to confession or otherwise repent--and then you are back in business. In the case of an unexpected death, you may be in the "state of grace" at that moment or, if you're not, you'll enter the afterlife as an unsaved person regardless of all the works you've done previously. And if you believe in a Purgatory, you'll enter into punishment even if you did die in the "state of grace!"

Anyone who takes this theology to heart lives his whole life not knowing whether he'll hit it right or not at the moment of death. Incidentally, this may account for the popularity of the belief that some saint, if prayed to in just the correct way, will keep you from kicking off without a chance to repent before it's too late.

There are many who will defend it (because they're defending their church), but most do not actually believe it. They think "I've been good" in some general way and that this is sufficient. That's because they don't actually want to believe the details of the salvation process that they've been taught in church. It's too scary and uncertain.

They either adhere to the system and live their whole lives not knowing if they'll be saved or not, or else they shove it to the side and hope for the best.

That's a very good point, Albion.

EmSw · Jan 25, 2016

thatbrian said:
Living with the uncertainty of whether or not you are or will be accepted by God does not produce a life of: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness. . . It produces the opposite: fear, depression, anxiety, intolerance, animosity. . . I know firsthand.

Why would one not know if he/she is accepted by God? Do you think one who lives in evil is accepted by God? Here is what the Bible says -

Acts 10:35
But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

You do not have to live with the uncertainty whether you are accepted by God. Why would one live with fear, depression, anxiety, etc. when the Bible tells us how to be accepted by God?

thatbrian said:
The other fruit of this unfortunate self-salvation is that it makes one very judgmental. It must. The only way these people bolster themselves up is by comparing themselves to others. They must convince themselves that they are OK, and they do that by comparing themselves to their neighbor.

Now you are speculating. Where do you get it makes one judgmental? Where do you get these people bolster themselves by comparing themselves to others? I have no need to compare myself to anyone to convince myself I am OK.

Oh, and how did you conclude we don't have a life of love, joy, peace, patience, and kindness? My life overflows with love, joy, peace, patience, and kindness.

EmSw · Jan 25, 2016

Albion said:
IMHO, you've raised an important point here that usually is not addressed in such discussions. The churches that teach 'works righteousness' naturally also teach that there is no security.

You strive to please God, but if you fall, you are lost--until you go to confession or otherwise repent--and then you are back in business. In the case of an unexpected death, you may be in the "state of grace" at that moment or, if you're not, you'll enter the afterlife as an unsaved person regardless of all the works you've done previously. And if you believe in a Purgatory, you'll enter into punishment even if you did die in the "state of grace!"

Anyone who takes this theology to heart lives his whole life not knowing whether he'll hit it right or not at the moment of death. Incidentally, this may account for the popularity of the belief that some saint, if prayed to in just the correct way, will keep you from kicking off without a chance to repent before it's too late.

There are many who will defend it (because they're defending their church), but most do not actually believe it. They think "I've been good" in some general way and that this is sufficient. That's because they don't actually want to believe the details of the salvation process that they've been taught in church. It's too scary and uncertain.

They either adhere to the system and live their whole lives not knowing if they'll be saved or not, or else they shove it to the side and hope for the best.

Why not ask me? Your post is filled with speculation. Let me tell you this, there is security beyond measure for those who obey the Lord and live a life of righteousness.

Albion · Jan 25, 2016

EmSw said:
Why would one not know if he/she is accepted by God?

As we were saying, it would be because of one's church teaching that to you (if you do happen to belong to such a denomination).

Oh, and how did you conclude we don't have a life of love, joy, peace, patience, and kindness? My life overflows with love, joy, peace, patience, and kindness.

Why not ask me? Your post is filled with speculation. Let me tell you this, there is security beyond measure for those who obey the Lord and live a life of righteousness.

You seem to have missed the point here. No one is saying that every Christian is in this situation. We were speaking of those who are.

Do you belong to a church that teaches that there is no eternal security for the believer, but that your salvation can be lost at any moment? If not, then we were not speaking of you.

EmSw · Jan 25, 2016

Albion said:
As we were saying, it would be because of one's church teaching that to you (if you do happen to belong to such a denomination).

The Bible is plain enough without any church teachings.

Albion said:
You seem to have missed the point here. No one is saying that every Christian is in this situation. We were speaking of those who are.

Do you belong to a church that teaches that there is no eternal security for the believer, but that your salvation can be lost at any moment? If not, then we were not speaking of you.

Does your church teach you can live a life of evil and still be saved? Does your church teach that those who do good come forth to the resurrection of life? Does it also teach those who do evil come forth to the resurrection of damnation?

Albion · Jan 25, 2016

EmSw said:
The Bible is plain enough without any church teachings.

Very good. But, just the same, we were speaking about those Christians who have been taught a different way of looking at the matter.

jimmyjimmy · Jan 25, 2016

EmSw said:
Why would one not know if he/she is accepted by God? Do you think one who lives in evil is accepted by God? Here is what the Bible says -

Acts 10:35
But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

You do not have to live with the uncertainty whether you are accepted by God. Why would one live with fear, depression, anxiety, etc. when the Bible tells us how to be accepted by God?

Now you are speculating. Where do you get it makes one judgmental? Where do you get these people bolster themselves by comparing themselves to others? I have no need to compare myself to anyone to convince myself I am OK.

Oh, and how did you conclude we don't have a life of love, joy, peace, patience, and kindness? My life overflows with love, joy, peace, patience, and kindness.

Well, your writings are rather sour and impatient, for starters. There is an overflow of venom, from where I sit.

Also, you are constantly judgmental here. You condemn all of us grace folks as on a highway to hell, constantly.

jimmyjimmy · Jan 25, 2016

There simply is no way in which a person can live in a place of insecurity and be other-focused and loving. It is in fact the security of our our salvation that is the fuel that makes denying self and loving others possible. Otherwise we are so concerned with our far too self-focused as we are trying out best not to sin.

It's a paradox that the more you try to justify yourself, the more sinful you become, yet, it is an inescapable reality. Love blooms in security. "We love because He first loved us".

EmSw · Jan 25, 2016

thatbrian said:
Well, your writings are rather sour and impatient, for starters. There is an overflow of venom, from where I sit.

Also, you are constantly judgmental here. You condemn all of us grace folks as on a highway to hell, constantly.

Why is it you think I've condemned you on a highway to hell?

Would you mind showing us where I've judged you?

Venom??? Do you not believe Acts 10:35?

jimmyjimmy · Jan 25, 2016

You brought up your personal life, but it is against the rules here to go any further.

Do you believe that Acts 10:35 is the way that we are accepted by God? If so, would you say that it's the gospel?

EmSw · Jan 25, 2016

thatbrian said:
There simply is no way in which a person can live in a place of insecurity and be other-focused and loving.

I've told you I am secure beyond measure; do you not believe me?

thatbrian said:
It is in fact the security of our our salvation that is the fuel that makes denying self and loving others possible. Otherwise we are so concerned with our far too self-focused as we are trying out best not to sin.

The Bible speaks way more of not sinning than I do. The same book which gives you security also tells us repeatedly to flee, cast away, and remove sin from ourselves. Besides, if we aren't concerned about fleeing sin, how will it get done?

thatbrian said:
It's a paradox that the more you try to justify yourself, the more sinful you become, yet, it is an inescapable reality. Love blooms in security. "We love because He first loved us".

Now you add 'justify' to the mix. We weren't speaking of justification. Why bring it in now?

We were speaking of being accepted by fearing God and working righteousness. There is abundant security to those who fear God and work righteousness.

EmSw · Jan 25, 2016

thatbrian said:
You brought up your personal life, but it is against the rules here to go any further.

Who said this in post #122 - 'I know firsthand.'?

thatbrian said:
Do you believe that Acts 10:35 is the way that we are accepted by God?

I believe the Bible, do you?

thatbrian said:
If so, would you say that it's the gospel?

Why do you keep moving the goalposts? Let's stick with being accepted by God.

jimmyjimmy · Jan 25, 2016

EmSw said:
I've told you I am secure beyond measure; do you not believe me?

Yes; however, you think that you are actually walking in fulfillment of the law, which is the reason for your false confidence.

EmSw said:
The Bible speaks way more of not sinning than I do. The same book which gives you security also tells us repeatedly to flee, cast away, and remove sin from ourselves. Besides, if we aren't concerned about fleeing sin, how will it get done?

EmSw said:
Now you add 'justify' to the mix. We weren't speaking of justification. Why bring it in now? We were speaking of being accepted by fearing God and working righteousness. There is abundant security to those who fear God and work righteousness.

That's justification. You are justified by, "fearing God and working righteousness".

jimmyjimmy · Jan 25, 2016

EmSw said:
Who said this in post #122 - 'I know firsthand.'?

I believe the Bible, do you?

Why do you keep moving the goalposts? Let's stick with being accepted by God.

You have answered zero questions. I will not reply without answer,s as it would be fruitless. If you would like to continue, please answer the questions honestly and fully.

Do you believe that Acts 10:35 is the way that we are accepted by God? If so, would you say that it's the gospel?

EmSw · Jan 25, 2016

thatbrian said:
Yes; however, you think that you are actually walking in fulfillment of the law, which is the reason for your false confidence.

Do you not believe in fulfilling the law?

Romans 13:8
Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.

Romans 13:10
Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Galatians 6:2
Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

How is loving one another a false confidence?

thatbrian said:
That's justification. You are justified by, "fearing God and working righteousness".

Actually, Acts says it is being accepted by God, not justification.

EmSw · Jan 25, 2016

thatbrian said:
You have answered zero questions. I will not reply without answer,s as it would be fruitless. If you would like to continue, please answer the questions honestly and fully.

Do you believe that Acts 10:35 is the way that we are accepted by God?

Yes, yes, yes! I believe what the Bible says.

thatbrian said:
If so, would you say that it's the gospel?

Is being accepted by God good news?

The lie of eternal security refuted once and for all.

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