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The Laws of the Universe

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LanceCohen

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First and foremost, I think we must avoid the reasoning that "no evidence of a thing" is "evidence for not the thing". Secrets are, by definition, that for which no evidence exist, but secrets are certainly real and existent. And that is just an example.

Well there is no reason to think gravity was different, and a lot of reason to think it was not.
But I have a reason to think it is different. You may think otherwise. That is OK, ie until we truly know. And as an example the whole world thought the world was flat, except for one person, and that one person was right. And also as I have said elsewhere, the improbable is not the impossible. In fact for a truth probability is entirely irrelevant.

.... The bones are, you could think of them as a photographic negative to the muscles, the positive image ...
Of course I know this too, but this is not enough. There is still guess work. The best attempts I know are computer simulations.

And on the flood, I have googled the material for its falsification, and I do not think they are unequivocal, in that there are other ways to explain the falsification, and as stated above, until we know better, we cannot be dismissive just because it is not your theory.

As to "genetic bottleneck", has not the recent genetic study of the all the world's people precisely conclude such a bottleneck?

Well, the milky way takes about what is it, 200 million years to make one complete revolution.
Oh you can be sure I think much much more than that, and the universe is a far more stranger place than you can ever imagined.

This argument "you dont know" ...
That is not my argument. Specifically I said, knowledge of the past, and also by implication, by the so-called scientific method, for the study of the past can never be a science. As an example, in experimental archeology, archeologists tried to "prove" how an ancient thing was done by doing it, but that does not necessarily mean that was how the ancients did it. And then someone finds a new bone tomorrow and all the textbooks are to be rewritten.

As to my quotation from Popper why don't you read/goggle a bit on Popper.
 
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I can also ask "Any verifiable and demonstrable reason why should assume that gravity or other forces acted the same in the past?"

Because all sorts of things would be messed up. For example, if gravity was ever different, then the moon and earth wouldn't even still be in orbit. you know. VERY simple things like that.
 
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Because all sorts of things would be messed up. For example, if gravity was ever different, then the moon and earth wouldn't even still be in orbit. you know. VERY simple things like that.
Ha!!!! Glad you tried to respond, what a primo piece of nonsense. So tell us why the moon would not be where it is???
 
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Hespera

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First and foremost, I think we must avoid the reasoning that "no evidence of a thing" is "evidence for not the thing". Secrets are, by definition, that for which no evidence exist, but secrets are certainly real and existent. And that is just an example.


But I have a reason to think it is different. You may think otherwise. That is OK, ie until we truly know. And as an example the whole world thought the world was flat, except for one person, and that one person was right. And also as I have said elsewhere, the improbable is not the impossible. In fact probability is entirely irrelevant.


Of course I know this too, but this is not enough. There is still guess work. The best attempts I know are computer simulations.

And on the flood, I have googled the material for its falsification, and I do not think they are unequivocal, in that there are other ways to explain the falsification, and as stated above, until we know better, we cannot be dismissive just because it is not your theory.

As to "genetic bottleneck", has not the recent genetic study of the all the world's people precisely conclude such a bottleneck?


Oh you can be sure I think much much more than that, and the universe is a far more stranger place than you can ever imagined.


That is not my argument. Specifically I said, knowledge of the past, and also by implication, by the so-called scientific method, for the study of the past can never be a science. As an example, in experimental archeology, archeologists tried to "prove" how an ancient thing was done by doing it, but that does not necessarily mean that was how the ancients did it.

As to my quotation from Popper why don't you read/goggle a bit on Popper.


First and foremost, I think we must avoid the reasoning that "no evidence of a thing" is "evidence for not the thing". Secrets are, by definition, that for which no evidence exist, but secrets are certainly real and existent. And that is just an example.

i do know better than that. However, there is abundant evidence of other lesser floods, longer ago. its a legit question, why is there zero for the 'flood"? You could tell the police that someone ran a buffalo herd thru your yard, but when they find no evidence, you will be cited for false report, and your "no evidence isnt evidence against' will jsut get you in more trouble.

do you have a coherent explanation for why evidence of floods is common, but no evidence for the big one?


But I have a reason to think it is different

You think so? What?
And as an example the whole world thought the world was flat, except for one person,

except that isnt true.

Of course I know this too, but this is not enough

Enough for what? And computer simulations?

The musculature of a dinosaur can be reconstructed with great accuracy.

What are you trying to avoid acknowledging here?
And on the flood, I have googled the material for its falsification, and I do not think they are unequivocal, in that there are other ways to explain the falsification, and as stated above, until we know better, we cannot be dismissive just because it is not your theory.

You would have looked in creo sites, i guess.
a few minutes of google is not much of a study. There are, you know, people who have spent their lives on this.

What I find weird is that you think on the thinnest of bases that gravity was different, but as you dont like what earth dating gives you, you think there are "other ways to explain". no matter how outlandish?
we cannot be dismissive just because it is not your theory.

Your 'just because" is not descriptive of me or anyone in science, as far as i know. Dismissive of ideas with zero backing is another thing altogether.
As to "genetic bottleneck", has not the recent genetic study of the all the world's people precisely conclude such a bottleneck?


yes, but if you want to go with that, it alone falsifies your flood. it is many thousands of years earlier than the "flood" and, it should be the same marker for all animals. But it isnt there in other animals. They, some of them, have their own bottlenecks but at very different times.

no flood there.

Oh you can be sure I think much much more than that, and the universe is a far more stranger place than you can ever imagined.

Stranger no doubt than anyone can imagine. Zero to do with this stuff about gravity tho.
by the so-called scientific method, for the study of the past can never be a science. As an example, in experimental archeology, archeologists tried to "prove" how an ancient thing was done by doing it, but that does not necessarily mean that was how the ancients did it.


Why do you call it 'so called scientific"? Please elaborate on this odd thing you have said here.
archeologists tried to "prove"

We can usually tell a person who doesnt know squat about science when he says something like this.

Seriously.

Once again... proof is for alcohol and math. We dont prove things in science. it is good fun to try to replicate how stone tools, say, were made, and much can be learned that way. Proof beyond a reasonable doubt can be achieved sometimes, not others. if you want to doubt something, go ahead, but a more reasonable alternative is needed if you want to be ta
ken seriously.

As to my quotation from Popper why don't you read/goggle a bit on Popper

Sending me to google doesnt answer my q about what you think.

Why do you think there was a flood?

Do you think all theories are false?
 
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Delphiki

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Ha!!!! Glad you tried to respond, what a primo piece of nonsense. So tell us why the moon would not be where it is???

Nonsense? This is "no duh" level elementary knowledge. If there was too much or too little gravity in the past, the moon would have never found orbital equilibrium with the earth and either would have become part of earth or escaped far from earth respectively. If, at any time the gravity in the universe was different, then the solar system itself would be very different.

Too much gravity would have greatly accelerated the age of the sun, too little would have made it's radius too big and would have caused it to consume Mercury and possibly Venus (depending on how much of a difference we're talking about here).

If gravity was weaker long ago, the earth might not even have water, or the same atmosphere it does now, without the pressure required to hold some of the lighter elements to the earth and not blown off by the solar wind of the much bigger, redder, sun. This is even if stars would be able to form together AT ALL.

And this is just talking about a change in gravity.

Sure, you could say that ALL of the fundamentals of the universe might have changed proportionately, but that wouldn't make any difference in anything, especially not change any of the evidence we have today, and especially not as we understand the past from our perspective. It would be the exact same as if they didn't change at all, and all the same physics that apply now would still have applied then.
 
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LanceCohen

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Lets do last thing first.

Why do you think there was a flood?
There are written evidence in all ancient cultures all over the world for such an event, and particularly in something called the Torah, or the Old Testament as it is called in the bible. And the Torah is acknowledged as true by none other than Jesus Christ himself. You can be dismissive of Jesus Christ as God and ancient writings as myth, but do you really know better? Just because it doesn't agree with current theories and tentative knowledge of things is not good enough a reason to be dismissive, at least to me.

Do you think all theories are false?
Theories are theories aren't they? They are not called the Truth or something are they? And in any case science is induction and what you know from your theories are always tentative, never certain. And yes they can all be false.

do you have a coherent explanation for why evidence of floods is common, but no evidence for the big one?
I don't know. We have not found it, or perhaps we have to relook at things with a different presuppositional framework or theory, etc. Until the tsunami in 2004 people didnt think tsunamis are real. And then people started seeing tsunamis in the past geological records. But as aforementioned, such evidence or the lack thereof, is not my basis for my "theory".

There are, you know, people who have spent their lives on this.
I sure like to know what they think and know.

no matter how outlandish?
Yes, no matter. Isn't truth stranger than fiction? And also isn't "outlandish" just your point of view? Even if everyone thinks it is outlandish, what does it matter? Was that not how sometimes science have advanced? Einstein comes to mind immediately.

(It may matter for some with practical considerations, such as exam grades, funding for research, or not to appear loony, etc, but for some they are past these considerations.)

And on Time.

Gravity may not be the only thing that is not the same in the past. Time too. We, at any moment, just do not and cannot know, if a second now is as long as the second that just past. And that is Einstein too. And there is corroboration of such ideas in, of all places, the bible, where a fisherman said, a thousand years can be a day, and vice versa. Time dilation is not unknown in the bible.

And so if we are to construct a theory where things are not the same in the past we have to adjust not just one thing, but several and all interconnecting pieces to maintain a coherent system: the "vast implications" as someone mentioned.

To be sure such a thing have not been done, to my knowledge, and it will be very hard, but until it is done, then we know whether it gives us a new perspective of things, a new presuppositional framework to interpret evidences and data, and identify what would falsify it. Of course you need not and do not have to undertake such an arduous task, and maintained the orthodoxy, but I am sure tiny baby steps will be undertaken in due time, if it has not already started.
 
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Lets do last thing first.

There are written evidence in all ancient cultures all over the world for such an event, and particularly in something called the Torah, or the Old Testament as it is called in the bible. And the Torah is acknowledged as true by none other than Jesus Christ himself. You can be dismissive of Jesus Christ as God and ancient writings as myth, but do you really know better? Just because it doesn't agree with current theories and tentative knowledge of things is not good enough a reason to be dismissive, at least to me.

This is one of the weakest defenses for a flood. While many ancient civilizations (not all, Egyptians and Mesopotamian record no flood at the time it supposedly happened)did have a flood myth, they are all different from the Biblical flood and they all have survivors of their own civilizations. So, if there was a ever a global flood, it sure didn't happen as described in the Bible and there were plenty of survivors from every existing civilization.
 
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sandwiches

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I can also ask "Any verifiable and demonstrable reason why should assume that gravity or other forces acted the same in the past?"

Because we have only observed them to act the same way in the past. Have we ever observed them to be different?
 
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Doveaman

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The whole solar system would be in a non-equilibrium state, sending planets and moons flying all over the place, for a start. So the earth would end up either on a hyperbolic orbit through space, or else a far more elliptical orbit than it's on now, causing huge variation between seasons, and possibly bringing it into contact with many large earth-crossing bodies. The orbital resonance of many celestial bodies would also be thrown out, with complex and unpredictable effects on their speed and direction.
I don’t see what this has to do with the scientific analysis of how much weight a muscle can carry around in our gravity. And you act as if planets orbiting differently from the way they do today is impossible. It is impossible according to your uniformitarian model of the universe, but scientific models are not reality, this is why they are called models. And there are other scientific models of the universe that allows for the different orbits of planets.

I dare say that it is more likely for planets to have orbited differently in the past than for a dinosaur's muscles to carry around 180 tons of weight in 1G gravity.

Impossible Dinosaurs:

"It appears that the maximum force or stress that can be exerted by any muscle is inherent in the structure of the muscle filaments. The maximum force is roughly 4 to 4 kgf/cm2 cross section of muscle (300 - 400 kN/m2). This force is body-size independent and is the same for mouse and elephant muscle. The reason for this uniformity is that the dimensions of the thick and thin muscle filaments, and also the number of cross-bridges between them are the same. In fact the structure of mouse muscle and elephant muscle is so similar that a microscopist would have difficulty identifying them except for a larger number of mitrochondria in the smaller animal. This uniformity in maximum force holds not only for higher vertebrates, but for many other organisms, including at least some, but not all invertebrates."
 
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sandwiches

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First and foremost, I think we must avoid the reasoning that "no evidence of a thing" is "evidence for not the thing". Secrets are, by definition, that for which no evidence exist, but secrets are certainly real and existent. And that is just an example.


But I have a reason to think it is different. You may think otherwise. That is OK, ie until we truly know. And as an example the whole world thought the world was flat, except for one person, and that one person was right. And also as I have said elsewhere, the improbable is not the impossible. In fact for a truth probability is entirely irrelevant.


Of course I know this too, but this is not enough. There is still guess work. The best attempts I know are computer simulations.

And on the flood, I have googled the material for its falsification, and I do not think they are unequivocal, in that there are other ways to explain the falsification, and as stated above, until we know better, we cannot be dismissive just because it is not your theory.

As to "genetic bottleneck", has not the recent genetic study of the all the world's people precisely conclude such a bottleneck?


Oh you can be sure I think much much more than that, and the universe is a far more stranger place than you can ever imagined.


That is not my argument. Specifically I said, knowledge of the past, and also by implication, by the so-called scientific method, for the study of the past can never be a science. As an example, in experimental archeology, archeologists tried to "prove" how an ancient thing was done by doing it, but that does not necessarily mean that was how the ancients did it. And then someone finds a new bone tomorrow and all the textbooks are to be rewritten.

As to my quotation from Popper why don't you read/goggle a bit on Popper.

Of course you find the evidence unconvincing. The truth is no evidence that falsifies the flood or the Bible will ever satisfy you. You simply don't want to stop believing.
 
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Doveaman

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What present day observation is valid? That a dinosaur living today could not stand up? According to one creationist, or according to the SVP (society of vertebrate paleontologists) or anyone with some credentials and credibility?
It is valid according to science. You can reject the science if you like, but it is still valid science. Your so-called "vast implications" does not invalidate the science. Even a puny 5000 kg elephant has to wrestle at times with our gravity trying to stand up after lying down. How mush more would a 180 ton behemoth with a 60 foot long, 40,000 lb neck.
 
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Doveaman

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The theory was concocted from folks with a history of bad science.
Sure, discredit the scientists when you can't refute the science.
Fool me once, shame on you; fool me a thousand times, I must be a findie.
Big Bang theory is bad science, so you must be a findie.
 
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Doveaman

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At any rate, all these words are great and all but is there anything that supports this hypothesis? Any verifiable and demonstrable reason why should assume that gravity or other forces acted differently in the past?
Impossible Dinosaurs
 
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Hespera

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Lets do last thing first.


There are written evidence in all ancient cultures all over the world for such an event, and particularly in something called the Torah, or the Old Testament as it is called in the bible. And the Torah is acknowledged as true by none other than Jesus Christ himself. You can be dismissive of Jesus Christ as God and ancient writings as myth, but do you really know better? Just because it doesn't agree with current theories and tentative knowledge of things is not good enough a reason to be dismissive, at least to me.


Theories are theories aren't they? They are not called the Truth or something are they? And in any case science is induction and what you know from your theories are always tentative, never certain. And yes they can all be false.


I don't know. We have not found it, or perhaps we have to relook at things with a different presuppositional framework or theory, etc. Until the tsunami in 2004 people didnt think tsunamis are real. And then people started seeing tsunamis in the past geological records. But as aforementioned, such evidence or the lack thereof, is not my basis for my "theory".


I sure like to know what they think and know.


Yes, no matter. Isn't truth stranger than fiction? And also isn't "outlandish" just your point of view? Even if everyone thinks it is outlandish, what does it matter? Was that not how sometimes science have advanced? Einstein comes to mind immediately.

(It may matter for some with practical considerations, such as exam grades, funding for research, or not to appear loony, etc, but for some they are past these considerations.)

And on Time.

Gravity may not be the only thing that is not the same in the past. Time too. We, at any moment, just do not and cannot know, if a second now is as long as the second that just past. And that is Einstein too. And there is corroboration of such ideas in, of all places, the bible, where a fisherman said, a thousand years can be a day, and vice versa. Time dilation is not unknown in the bible.

And so if we are to construct a theory where things are not the same in the past we have to adjust not just one thing, but several and all interconnecting pieces to maintain a coherent system: the "vast implications" as someone mentioned.

To be sure such a thing have not been done, to my knowledge, and it will be very hard, but until it is done, then we know whether it gives us a new perspective of things, a new presuppositional framework to interpret evidences and data, and identify what would falsify it. Of course you need not and do not have to undertake such an arduous task, and maintained the orthodoxy, but I am sure tiny baby steps will be undertaken in due time, if it has not already started.

There are written evidence in all ancient cultures all over the world for such an event, and particularly in something called the Torah, or the Old Testament as it is called in the bible. And the Torah is acknowledged as true by none other than Jesus Christ himself. You can be dismissive of Jesus Christ as God and ancient writings as myth, but do you really know better? Just because it doesn't agree with current theories and tentative knowledge of things is not good enough a reason to be dismissive, at least to me.

There may be such accounts tho i have only seen this asserted. if there are a lot of such stories, that says something, but what?

Cultures world wide have stories of the little people, too. From that we conclude, what?

Jesus is said to have said this. Whether he was "son of god" as many others have also claimed of themselves, is another matter. And whether he really said it is completely impossible to verify. Considering all of his supposed words were written many many years alter... who knows?

hearsay from 2000 years ago doesnt much match against actual physical evidence. Zero evidence for, all relevant data from all fields of research against. So why do you persist in your belief? Lots of christians understand there was no flood, and it doesnt make their god go poof..

Just because it doesn't agree with current theories and tentative knowledge of things is not good enough a reason to be dismissive, at least to me

i acknowledged that last time, and pointed out its got nothing to do with 'just because' as you claim. lets not go thru that again?



Theories are theories aren't they? They are not called the Truth or something are they? And in any case science is induction and what you know from your theories are always tentative, never certain. And yes they can all be false.


The question was, do you think they are all false. Can you answer that?


Gravity may not be the only thing that is not the same in the pas
t.

idle speculation, no data.

And so if we are to construct a theory where things are not the same in the past we have to adjust not just one thing, but several and all interconnecting pieces to maintain a coherent system: the "vast implications" as someone mentioned.

That is fine; but a theory is to explain data. you have no data.

"orthodoxy" is for religion. Its how things like the flood myth persisteth.
 
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Hespera

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Why do you guys always want to believe the fringe guys, with no credentials, no credibility, no data, and ignore everything else?

Look at what it says about general level of credulity and why you believe a talking snake book.
 
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