The Laws of the Universe

[Doveaman]

Why do you guys always want to believe the fringe guys, with no credentials, no credibility, no data, and ignore everything else?

Look at what it says about general level of credulity and why you believe a talking snake book.

My interest is in the science, not the "fringe guys" or the "consensus". If you have a probelem with the science then refute it.

 

[Hespera]

It is valid according to science. You can reject the science if you like, but it is still valid science. Your so-called "vast implications" does not invalidate the science. Even a puny 5000 kg elephant has to wrestle at times with our gravity trying to stand up after lying down. How mush more would a 180 ton behemoth with a 60 foot long, 40,000 lb neck.

Originally Posted by Hespera

What present day observation is vaod?
​

And what is your answer?
IT is valid, according to science.

There is no science to show gravity was different, and the guy who wrote about how dinosaurs couldnt walk is full of beans, as you'd know if you actually looked into it a bit rather than doing the hook line and sinker bit.

The bit about elephants having a hard time getting up? So does my grandfather. so, what?

 

[Doveaman]

Blue whale 180 - 200 tons or more in weight.

Blue whale 180 - 200 tons or more in water.

 

[sandwiches]

Impossible Dinosaurs

So, you're saying that because we don't know how dinosaurs could be so large, the universal laws must have been different?

Sorry, but we actually do KNOW that the fundamental forces did not act differently in the past. How? Well... you and LanceCohen are forgetting about a teensy detail when you keep talking about uniformitarianism being mere guesses or conjecture. We can see into the past. We have billions of years worth of data arriving every single minute to Earth from every corner of the universe and much more and much older data is coming. We can see billions of years into the past and see that the laws of nature acted just the same as they do on Earth. So, a different constant G is NOT the answer to our problem, I'm afraid.

 

[sandwiches]

There is no science to show gravity was different[.]

Not only that, but we KNOW and have verifiable, demonstrable evidence that that the constant G has been the same for MUCH MUCH longer than the Earth has been around.

 

[Hespera]

My interest is in the science, not the "fringe guys" or the "consensus". If you have a probelem with the science then refute it.

So...... why do you go straight to the fringe guys?

You clearly have not studied even the fundamentals of science yet.

 

[Hespera]

So, you're saying that because we don't know how dinosaurs could be so large, the universal laws must have been different?

Sorry, but we actually do KNOW that the fundamental forces did not act differently in the past. How? Well... you and LanceCohen are forgetting about a teensy detail when you keep talking about uniformitarianism being mere guesses or conjecture. We can see into the past. We have billions of years worth of data arriving every single minute to Earth from every corner of the universe and much more and much older data is coming. We can see billions of years into the past and see that the laws of nature acted just the same as they do on Earth. So, a different constant G is NOT the answer to our problem, I'm afraid.

Indricotherium was a mammal, 18 ft at the shoulder, 25 tons.
the same size as say, a 'brontosaurus'.
so when did gravity suddenly get stronger?

 

[SharpSolaris]

By the way - why gravity "crushed" small dinosaurs too?

 

[Hespera]

My interest is in the science, not the "fringe guys" or the "consensus". If you have a probelem with the science then refute it.

The article is painful to read, but skimming, i find this...

To believe then, that a brontosaur could stand at 70,000 lb., one has to believe.....

Ok never mind that it is Apatosaurus, not Brontosaurus.

the weight give is nearly 3 times as much as is given by other sources.

 

[SharpSolaris]

It's easy. We can investigate the gravitational interaction the planets, that away from us billions of light years. We see them as they were in the past. And we see that gravity has not changed.

 

[Hespera]

By the way - why gravity "crushed" small dinosaurs too?

I couldnt bring myself to read the whole thing. Did the author say that increased gravity killed off the dinosaurs?

 

[Doveaman]

And what is your answer?
IT is valid, according to science.

There is no science to show gravity was different, and the guy who wrote about how dinosaurs couldnt walk is full of beans, as you'd know if you actually looked into it a bit rather than doing the hook line and sinker bit.

The bit about elephants having a hard time getting up? So does my grandfather. so, what?

I don't know what you are going on about. If the conclusions from the study are false then show that they are:

Impossible Dinosaurs:

"This same look requires that dinosaur lifting requirements be compared to human lifting capabilities. One objection which might be raised to this would be that animal muscle tissue was somehow "better" than that of humans. This, however, is known not to be the case; for instance, from Knut Nielson's, "Scaling, Why is Animal size So Important", Cambridge Univ Press, 1984, page 163, we have:

'It appears that the maximum force or stress that can be exerted by any muscle is inherent in the structure of the muscle filaments. The maximum force is roughly 4 to 4 kgf/cm2 cross section of muscle (300 - 400 kN/m2). This force is body-size independent and is the same for mouse and elephant muscle. The reason for this uniformity is that the dimensions of the thick and thin muscle filaments, and also the number of cross-bridges between them are the same. In fact the structure of mouse muscle and elephant muscle is so similar that a microscopist would have difficulty identifying them except for a larger number of mitrochondria in the smaller animal. This uniformity in maximum force holds not only for higher vertebrates, but for many other organisms, including at least some, but not all invertebrates'

...An ultrasaur or seismosaur with a neck 40' - 60' long and weighing 25000 - 40000 lb., would be looking at 400,000 to nearly a million foot pounds of torque were one of them to try to hold his neck out horizontally. That's crazy. You don't hang a 30,000 lb load 40' off into space even if it is made out of wood and structural materials, much less flesh and blood. No building inspector in America could be bribed sufficiently to let you build such a thing."

I think the point is that base on the size and structure of the muscle either those dinosaurs had supernatural strength to lift their own body weight in 1G gravity or we can infer a reduction in gravity. If you have an alternative explanation then I’ll be happy to hear it.

 

[Doveaman]

So, you're saying that because we don't know how dinosaurs could be so large, the universal laws must have been different?

Sorry, but we actually do KNOW that the fundamental forces did not act differently in the past. How? Well... you and LanceCohen are forgetting about a teensy detail when you keep talking about uniformitarianism being mere guesses or conjecture. We can see into the past. We have billions of years worth of data arriving every single minute to Earth from every corner of the universe and much more and much older data is coming. We can see billions of years into the past and see that the laws of nature acted just the same as they do on Earth. So, a different constant G is NOT the answer to our problem, I'm afraid.

Captain Picard would be impressed.

 

[Doveaman]

It's easy. We can investigate the gravitational interaction the planets, that away from us billions of light years. We see them as they were in the past. And we see that gravity has not changed.

Can you see the extinct dinosaurs roaming on those planets since it's all in the past?

 

[SharpSolaris]

I couldnt bring myself to read the whole thing. Did the author say that increased gravity killed off the dinosaurs?

There is a theory. But I not mastered this article, too.

 

[sandwiches]

Can you see the extinct dinosaurs roaming on those planets since it's all in the past?

We can see that your idea that gravity was lower is bunk.

 

[SharpSolaris]

Can you see the extinct dinosaurs roaming on those planets since it's all in the past?

We can see the gravitational interaction between space objects.

 

[Doveaman]

Indricotherium was a mammal, 18 ft at the shoulder, 25 tons.
the same size as say, a 'brontosaurus'.
so when did gravity suddenly get stronger?

Who said anything about "suddenly"?

 

[Nostromo]

I think there might be another problem that's been overlooked. Let's say that gravity was half the strength it is now. All else being equal the Earth would be orbiting somewhere similar to where Mars is today. The pressure and temperature in the Sun would be lower, reducing the rate of fusion. The frozen Earth would probably be incapable of supporting the kind of life we know, certainly dinosaurs would be practically impossible.

edit: It seems someone may already have mentioned this, sorry.

 

[Doveaman]

I can see the gravitational interaction between space objects.

Really? Can you show me the evidence?