• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

The Laws of the Universe

Status
Not open for further replies.

Mikecpking

Senior Member
Aug 29, 2005
2,389
69
60
Telford,Shropshire,England
Visit site
✟25,599.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
Hi everyone,
Some months ago, I watched this fascinating documnentary about the history of cosmology.

Enjoy and it it blows away Dad's thetorical nothingness and his rubbishing of blue/red shift of distant galaxies.

Enjoy!

Everything and Nothing | Watch Free Documentary Online
 
Upvote 0

Fahrrad

Currently an un-stoned homosexual
Apr 28, 2011
7
1
Stranded in San Antonio, Texas
✟22,632.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Here they are talking about Andromeda. So what we seem to have is spectral lines that are not normally able to be seen from earth. But if they go way up in a mountain, or some such places, they can see some. So how many other things can they NOT see?! What sort of incomplete picture did we used to get decades ago? What sort of incomplete picture do we now get, but maybe do not yet know??
This gets my point all wrong. I don't think you understand. When scientists cannot physically go and preform tests on something, they make models. Then, they take the models and try and find how accurate the model is. When a scientist sees something they want to know about, like what the Sun made out of, they first ask themselves how it would be. A scientist would look at hydrogen and helium based off of the current model, which suggests and has suggested that the sun is made out of hydrogen and helium, and then he would go out and get the clearest reading he could. Scientists have known about contaminants that can get in the way of actually finding accurate spectroscope measurements, so we counteract that by getting as far out of the atmosphere as possible. I don't know if you know this, but in this day and age, we use the Hubble space telescope and other orbiting observatories, because they quite literally have nothing between their lens and their target.

Nothing about hydrogen, or carbon, etc in space presents a problem that I can see. It is merely a material. How far away is it, and what else is there, and what forces are working there, and what time is woven in to the mix if any?
I don't understand what you're saying fully here, but I think you are trying to imply the idea that even though material behaves similarly in deep space, predictable by the same methods we use on earth, it doesn't do a thing to your baseless hypothesis that everywhere is different from right now on earth.

Irrelevant. Our system is not deep space.
It doesn't have to be. Light already takes eight minutes to simply get to Earth, and the solar system is more than sixty times that in diameter. I believe you are also talking about the special theory of relativity, which is different from the general theory.

Example of a star we predict the movement of, and how we confirm it moved? Irrelevant. As above.
You might want to take a look at Omega Centauri before you insist that models are irrelevant.
Nonsense. We know little about the sun anyhow, have you ever been inside it?
We don't have to be inside of the sun to understand how it works. I'm going to put this into language for a child: Modern science uses "detective skills" (deduction) to understand how things that are infeasible work. You seem to have gotten caught up on the idea of "IT MUST BE DIRECTLY SEEN TO EXIST/WORK THAT WAY" which is "baloney" and not necessary in science. It's helpful when it can work like that, but when can see something behave as it is predicted to behave every time they test it, they can conclude---


I do hope you'll excuse me, my hard drive is failing. I'll be back to edit the rest of this
 
Upvote 0

dad

Undefeated!
Site Supporter
Jan 17, 2005
44,905
1,259
✟25,524.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Upvote 0

dad

Undefeated!
Site Supporter
Jan 17, 2005
44,905
1,259
✟25,524.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Care to back up your claims?
Yes. History and bible tell of spirits among men and other differences in nature. Science doesn't know as you show by failing to even talk intelligently about what is known about the state and forces and laws of the far past.
 
Upvote 0

dad

Undefeated!
Site Supporter
Jan 17, 2005
44,905
1,259
✟25,524.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
This gets my point all wrong. I don't think you understand. When scientists cannot physically go and preform tests on something, they make models. Then, they take the models and try and find how accurate the model is. When a scientist sees something they want to know about, like what the Sun made out of, they first ask themselves how it would be. A scientist would look at hydrogen and helium based off of the current model, which suggests and has suggested that the sun is made out of hydrogen and helium, and then he would go out and get the clearest reading he could.

What is the model based on? Let's look at that.


.
Scientists have known about contaminants that can get in the way of actually finding accurate spectroscope measurements, so we counteract that by getting as far out of the atmosphere as possible. I don't know if you know this, but in this day and age, we use the Hubble space telescope and other orbiting observatories, because they quite literally have nothing between their lens and their target..

Says you! That implies nothing but our space. How would you know?

.
I don't understand what you're saying fully here, but I think you are trying to imply the idea that even though material behaves similarly in deep space, predictable by the same methods we use on earth,..
.

You don't know it behaves the same do you? What...where?
It doesn't have to be. Light already takes eight minutes to simply get to Earth, and the solar system is more than sixty times that in diameter. I believe you are also talking about the special theory of relativity, which is different from the general theory..
Not light from the core of the sun though?

You might want to take a look at Omega Centauri before you insist that models are irrelevant.
OK, what about it??
[/quote]

We don't have to be inside of the sun to understand how it works. I'm going to put this into language for a child: Modern science uses "detective skills" (deduction) to understand how things that are infeasible work. You seem to have gotten caught up on the idea of "IT MUST BE DIRECTLY SEEN TO EXIST/WORK THAT WAY" which is "baloney" and not necessary in science. It's helpful when it can work like that, but when can see something behave as it is predicted to behave every time they test it, they can conclude---[/quote]
The Science Sherlock only deduces based on the earth state and laws. Unless that is applicable the deductions are useless.

I do hope you'll excuse me, my hard drive is failing. I'll be back to edit the rest of this
Haven't heard that one before.....
 
Upvote 0

Mikecpking

Senior Member
Aug 29, 2005
2,389
69
60
Telford,Shropshire,England
Visit site
✟25,599.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
Also recommend Hans Christian Anderson shows?? Name something on your show you can prove or support?


Hubble, Herschl, Einstein, Newton, Gallileo, Digges. I ham sure you have heard of at least 4 of those names.

Its upto you to debunk this documentary. Rubbishing it does not debunk. You have to provide substance, otherwise debate is meaningless with you.

Tell me, did you watch it in full?
 
Upvote 0

VehementiDominus

Active Member
May 12, 2011
307
13
England
✟520.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
Hubble, Herschl, Einstein, Newton, Gallileo, Digges. I ham sure you have heard of at least 4 of those names.

Its upto you to debunk this documentary. Rubbishing it does not debunk. You have to provide substance, otherwise debate is meaningless with you.

Tell me, did you watch it in full?

Agreed.

Also, thanks for that link, those documentaries were actually really informative. I enjoyed watching them.

Though I doubt Dad even clicked it.
 
Upvote 0

dad

Undefeated!
Site Supporter
Jan 17, 2005
44,905
1,259
✟25,524.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Hubble, Herschl, Einstein, Newton, Gallileo, Digges. I ham sure you have heard of at least 4 of those names.

Yes, and any of their ideas you are welcome to present. Baseless, bogus, assumed, believed, unsupported..I am fairly sure you have heard of at least 4 of those names.
Its upto you to debunk this documentary. Rubbishing it does not debunk. You have to provide substance, otherwise debate is meaningless with you.

Tell me, did you watch it in full?

It is up to you to present a point or points from your story show. When I looked at it, skipping forward, I saw the same thing all the time...story telling, without support. If you claim otherwise, let's see it?

Decay in the past? Distance of stars? Show the proof, don't wave and poof.
 
Upvote 0

VehementiDominus

Active Member
May 12, 2011
307
13
England
✟520.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
Yes I clicked it. Raise a point from it and maybe I'll kick it.

I'm not wasting my time explaining anything in those documentaries to you.

If you're too lazy or bone idle to watch it, then that's your problem. Just don't claim something that the discoveries highlighted in them falsify, that's intelectually dishonest. Not that you care about being intelectually dishonest, infact, it seems as though it's a skill you've refined and turned into an art.

If you have watched it and you don't understand it then well... that's also your problem, and it really wouldn't surprise me.
 
Upvote 0

Davian

fallible
May 30, 2011
14,100
1,181
West Coast of Canada
✟46,103.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Ignostic
Marital Status
Married
Yes. I have. They can't work. Better rethink. Try to support them if you dare.

Still struggling with that 'berden of evidence' concept?

Well, you have to understand dad's line of thinking: No matter what the opposition uses as evidence, they have to prove that things in deep space and things in the deep past were exactly as they are now without using logic, inferences, and tests that work here. He's one of the extremely incredulous and skeptical theists... when it comes to things they disagree with. He is essentially asking for time travel or to travel to deep space. But knowing dad, even if we did those things, he'd claim that we changed along with the laws of the universe as we traveled into deep space or into the past.
I see the tactic he uses - throw out an outrageous and/or stupefying claim and wait for the countering arguments, then start the "gimme proofs".

I would call Poe but I can't imagine someone keeping up a facade like that for so long. But I could be wrong.
He also believes that the Bible is true and that it's science's job to provide evidence that the Bible is wrong and that science is correct. In other words, he thinks his assertions require no justification and the opposing view doesn't require to be falsified.
If(when) I wanted to challenge a scientific concept/theory/hypothesis, the first thing I do is to learn all about it. How else are you going to falsify it? Does he get this? Perhaps he does, but its too much effort? Or he just can't let go of his favorite tactic, no matter how little success he has had with it.

The entertainment comes after you've shot the legs out from under his argument, when he still attempts to trot it around like nothing has happened.

dad, defeated.
 
Upvote 0

dad

Undefeated!
Site Supporter
Jan 17, 2005
44,905
1,259
✟25,524.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I'm not wasting my time explaining anything in those documentaries to you.
You couldn't anyhow. You would need to understand first. A bunch of religious sane state beliefs nonsense dressed as science. Ho hum.
If you're too lazy or bone idle to watch it, then that's your problem. Just don't claim something that the discoveries highlighted in them falsify, that's intelectually dishonest. Not that you care about being intelectually dishonest, infact, it seems as though it's a skill you've refined and turned into an art.
Pay attention...I glanced at it enough to see the usual garbage being offered in a story fashion. Not for anyone that isn't in your choir.


Seriously, if you can't pick a point to debate, don't bother pretending.
 
Upvote 0

dad

Undefeated!
Site Supporter
Jan 17, 2005
44,905
1,259
✟25,524.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I see the tactic he uses - throw out an outrageous and/or stupefying claim and wait for the countering arguments, then start the "gimme proofs".
What is stupefying to you might be obvious basics to someone else. But unless you can support what you throw out, you may as well not toss anything.

If(when) I wanted to challenge a scientific concept/theory/hypothesis, the first thing I do is to learn all about it. How else are you going to falsify it? Does he get this? Perhaps he does, but its too much effort? Or he just can't let go of his favorite tactic, no matter how little success he has had with it.
Nonsense. One learns what the theory is based on and is actually claiming. Once one realizes it is baloney one should not waste a lot of time pretending it can be falsified. Let's see you falsify a same state past that science uses as a foundation?? It ain't science, actually, even by their own inbred thinking standards.
The entertainment comes after you've shot the legs out from under his argument, when he still attempts to trot it around like nothing has happened.
Can you remind us what post you think you shot anything with!? :) It does get pathetic, when denialism becomes delusional.
dad, defeated.
Don't you wish.
 
Upvote 0

VehementiDominus

Active Member
May 12, 2011
307
13
England
✟520.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
You couldn't anyhow. You would need to understand first. A bunch of religious sane state beliefs nonsense dressed as science. Ho hum.
Pay attention...I glanced at it enough to see the usual garbage being offered in a story fashion. Not for anyone that isn't in your choir.


Seriously, if you can't pick a point to debate, don't bother pretending.

Watch it and refute ONE point from it, then I'll gladly comply by showing you how wrong you are.

No dodging, no word games, just refute one thing in that doco.

Or at the very least, show me that you've watched it by explaining something from it. Just a brief summary, I'm not asking for a whole transcript.

I'd bet my left ball that you can't.
 
Upvote 0

dad

Undefeated!
Site Supporter
Jan 17, 2005
44,905
1,259
✟25,524.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Watch it and refute ONE point from it, then I'll gladly comply by showing you how wrong you are.

No dodging, no word games, just refute one thing in that doco.

How about distance to stars? That is pretty basic in all cosmological models. Like to prove that the space we know is the space that goes all the way to any star?
Or at the very least, show me that you've watched it by explaining something from it. Just a brief summary, I'm not asking for a whole transcript.

I'd bet my left ball that you can't.
Don't offer movies. Especially third rate ones that are long in the story tooth, and short on support. Do you really think that in that mickey mouse movie there is any concept that is news to almost anyone here??

Or are you used to playing with kids?
 
Upvote 0

Davian

fallible
May 30, 2011
14,100
1,181
West Coast of Canada
✟46,103.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Ignostic
Marital Status
Married
Watch it and refute ONE point from it, then I'll gladly comply by showing you how wrong you are.

No dodging, no word games, just refute one thing in that doco.

Or at the very least, show me that you've watched it by explaining something from it. Just a brief summary, I'm not asking for a whole transcript.

I'd bet my left ball that you can't.

It appears that your family jewels will be safe.
 
Upvote 0

dad

Undefeated!
Site Supporter
Jan 17, 2005
44,905
1,259
✟25,524.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
It appears that your family jewels will be safe.
But not potent enough to make a point. Why pretend your story video has any when you can't get it together here and now before us all, to talk details? When I offered distances to stars and the basis science uses as a point, you come back with family jewel nonsense. If the distance to stars is off red or blue shifts lose their meaning. Star composition and size lose their meaning. The big bang loses it's family jewels...dark matter becomes an unneeded fantasy, and etc etc etc. Your video starts to look more than ridiculous....
 
Upvote 0

VehementiDominus

Active Member
May 12, 2011
307
13
England
✟520.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
How about distance to stars? That is pretty basic in all cosmological models. Like to prove that the space we know is the space that goes all the way to any star?

Parallax.

Don't offer movies. Especially third rate ones that are long in the story tooth, and short on support. Do you really think that in that mickey mouse movie there is any concept that is news to almost anyone here??

Or are you used to playing with kids?

And what's a first rate one? Expelled?

:doh:
 
Upvote 0

VehementiDominus

Active Member
May 12, 2011
307
13
England
✟520.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
How about distance to stars? That is pretty basic in all cosmological models. Like to prove that the space we know is the space that goes all the way to any star?

Parallax.

*** ***
--\ /
---*
--/ \
-/---\
/-----\
Earth-and-Sun-in-orbit.gif


Yeah, we look at a star when the Earth is one side of its orbit around the Sun, and we look at the same star when it's the other side of the orbit. You do the same thing your brain does every time it opens both eyes and determines how far away everything is. We use the same method your brain uses for depth perception to work out how far away the nearest stars are. That's enough as it is to lock, [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] and shoot your "different state" clean out the water.

Admittedly, the doco doesn't explain that parallax is how your eyes achieve depth perception, but it's not hard to recognise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth_perception

It's basically the same principle. Just imagine the Earth on the left of the Sun is your left eye and the Earth on the Right of the Sun is your right eye.

Of course, I could explain how E=MC^2 wouldn't work in a "different state", but I'm too drunk to do that right now. Lemme sober up and I will.

To be fair, I've always known this, only since watching this doco did I learn that it was called "Parallax".

Don't offer movies. Especially third rate ones that are long in the story tooth, and short on support. Do you really think that in that mickey mouse movie there is any concept that is news to almost anyone here??

Or are you used to playing with kids?
And what's a first rate one? Expelled?

:doh:
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Davian

fallible
May 30, 2011
14,100
1,181
West Coast of Canada
✟46,103.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Ignostic
Marital Status
Married
I see the tactic he uses - throw out an outrageous and/or stupefying claim and wait for the countering arguments, then start the "gimme proofs".

I would call Poe but I can't imagine someone keeping up a facade like that for so long. But I could be wrong.

If(when) I wanted to challenge a scientific concept/theory/hypothesis, the first thing I do is to learn all about it. How else are you going to falsify it? Does he get this? Perhaps he does, but its too much effort? Or he just can't let go of his favorite tactic, no matter how little success he has had with it.

The entertainment comes after you've shot the legs out from under his argument, when he still attempts to trot it around like nothing has happened.

dad, defeated.

What is stupefying to you might be obvious basics to someone else.
Very true. Obviously.
But unless you can support what you throw out, you may as well not toss anything.
Agreed - remember that 'burden of evidence' concept you were struggling with?
Nonsense. One learns what the theory is based on and is actually claiming. Once one realizes it is baloney one should not waste a lot of time pretending it can be falsified.
Just because you cannot falsify a scientific theory, it does not follow that it is not falsifiable.
Let's see you falsify a same state past that science uses as a foundation??
Your phrasing of that statement suggests that you do not understand what 'falsifiable' means in terms of scientific theory. It's up to you to falsify it. Not just throw mud.
It ain't science, actually, even by their own inbred thinking standards.
And that would be the mud. Name calling does not cut it. You will need to do science to beat science.
Can you remind us what post you think you shot anything with!? :)
I think that thread where you were positing that astronomical observations of relative velocities of galaxies could be falsified through comparisons to ghosts traveling at similar speeds can be found here.

You failed to provide robust falsifiable definitions to work with.

You failed to substantiate even the existence of something spiritual.

It does get pathetic, when denialism becomes delusional.
More mud. Whatever.
Don't you wish.
I don't believe in wishing. Do you?
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.