The latter Days: The type of the latter days

[The Righterzpen]

It’s weird that there’s almost no significant debates when “this generation” is used in any other passage. But For some reason matthew 24:34 is the hotly debated one…..

Yeah the phrase is also in Luke 21:32, Which is language regarding similar subject matter.

You want an interesting word study? Look up "this generation" in all the gospels. There's a lot of things in regards to that generation that would come to pass.

There's a couple of passage that talk about that generation being judged for all the blood of the prophets. Which I find to be an interesting statement that I can't say I know exactly why they would be held accountable for the blood of all the prophets? I'm guessing it has something to do with Jesus being the fulfillment of the prophecy.

As far as “heaven and earth”, it’s important to recognize that these terms, and their “passing away” can, and have, been used in regards to the fall of kingdoms in OT scripture. Thus, since Jesus states “this generation shall not pass away till all these things take place”, imho, it seems more likely he was using similar language, as the literal earth did not pass away, but instead, the apostate nation of Israel was brought to utter ruin.

Do you have an example of where that's used in the OT in regards to the fall of kingdoms? I don't recall ever coming across that.

Oh wait: correction - darkness in Egypt during the plagues.

Matthew 24:29 talks about "immediately after the tribulation... sun darkened, moon not give it's light..." Well, Matthew 27:45, Mark 15:33, Luke 23:44 all record the darkening of the sun having happened at the cross. And we know that wasn't a solar eclipse because it was a full moon. You can't have a solar eclipse on a full moon because the earth, moon and sun are not in the right positions in space for that to happen.

Interestingly too, the Romans and the Chinese actually recorded this "unusual eclipse". The Mayans also recorded an "unusual eclipse" but it's hard to pinpoint in history where their record of this was because it's hard to pinpoint where exactly their calendar started. But both Rome and China put it in the 1st century. (Jesus was crucified in 33 AD.)

Well here's another interesting one: Matthew 24:22, Mark 13:20. Both those verses say that if the tribulation wasn't "cut short" "no flesh would be saved". Well, ask yourself this question. Is the atonement complete? If you answer "yes" to that question, then the only conclusion you can come to is that what we call "the great tribulation" had to have taken place as part of the atonement.

Now the verses about "son of man coming in clouds of glory". Well compare that to Daniel 7:13. In that context where's the Son of man going to? (He's coming to the Ancient of Days.) Compare that to Revelation 5. "the lamb as was slain" standing before the Father to open the scrolls. Well who appears with him in heaven? (A great multitude who "came out of great tribulation".) Well what does Jesus say to the thief just before he dies? "This day you will be with me in paradise." Paradise is in the 3rd heaven.

So now if the great tribulation was part of the atonement; why was the sun darkened? Well it was "the great tribulation" because if the atonement hadn't been completed; that would have been the end of time. And I believe the sun was darkened "and the powers of heaven were shaken" because the cosmos was "coming unraveled".

Scripture also says that (after 3 PM - when the sun came back) Jesus looked around and "saw all things had been accomplished" John 19:28. Shortly after this he dies.

So the controversy of "this generation will see these things". That generation did see those things.

 

[Zao is life]

@DavidPT

Daniel 7
9 I watched until the thrones were thrown up, and the Ancient of Days sat, whose robe was white as snow, and the hair of His head like the pure wool. His throne was like flames of fire, and His wheels like burning fire.
10 A stream of fire went out and came out from before Him. A thousand thousands served Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 Then I was looking because of the voice of the great words which the horn spoke. I watched until the beast was slain, and his body was destroyed and given to the burning flame.
12 And the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away. Yet their lives were made longer for a season and time.

1. Adam's death, which came to all men.
2. Christ's resurrection from the dead, which comes to all whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.
3. The 2nd death (the lake of fire).

(Because there will be no second sacrifice for sins and no 2nd resurrection from the 2nd death - and the lake of fire IS the 2nd death).

Revelation Chapters 19 v 20 - 20 v 15, stripped of the chapter and verse divisions inserted into the text in 1227 AD, and the chronology assigned by Amillennialist and Pre-millennialist theology, and given the chronology below instead:

Now the beast was seized, and along with him the false prophet who had performed the signs on his behalf - signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image.
Both of them were thrown alive into the lake of fire burning with sulfur.
The others were killed by the sword that extended from the mouth of the one who rode the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves with their flesh.

Then I saw a large white throne and the one who was seated on it; the earth and the heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them.
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne. Then books were opened, and another book was opened - the book of life. So the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to their deeds.
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each one was judged according to his deeds.
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death - the lake of fire.
If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, that person was thrown into the lake of fire.

Then:

And I saw an angel come down from Heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him a thousand years.
And he cast him into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled. And after that he must be loosed a little time.
And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands.
And they lived [záō], and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. *

This is the first resurrection [anástasis].

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection [anástasis]. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years.

* The words crossed out above (Revelation 20:5a) are listed as spurious by Tischendorf's Spurious Passages of the Greek New Testament because they do not appear in the Bible’s oldest Greek manuscript of the Revelation, the Codex Sinaiticus. Nor are they found in the oldest Aramaic manuscript, the Khabouris Codex, and only appear as notes in the margins of some other manuscripts (this is mentioned merely as a statement of fact, it's not a statement about whether or not the sentence should be there).

Now when the thousand years are finished, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to bring them together for the battle. They are as numerous as the grains of sand in the sea.
They went up on the broad plain of the earth and encircled the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and devoured them completely.
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are too, and they will be tormented there day and night forever and ever.

Scripture Check #1 THE DRAGON'S DECEPTION OF THE NATIONS

We know that by His death and resurrection, Christ destroyed the works of Satan, i.e Satan's power over death (Hebrews 2:14-15; 1 John 3:8) - but this reality will last forever and ever - it's not as though this reality will last only for a thousand years, to be reversed for a brief period at the close of the thousand years.

The fact that sin has been defeated by Christ, and condemned in the flesh (1 John 3:8; Romans 8:3) and Satan's power over death has been destroyed, cannot be taken as implying either that the devil has been already destroyed in the lake of fire, or that he was also bound at the time of his utter defeat so that he could no longer deceive the nations.

In Genesis chapter 3, we read of how Satan appeared in the Garden of Eden and deceived mankind. Revelation 12:9 calls Satan "the great dragon" and "the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world." The only reason given for Satan being bound in Revelation 20:1-3 is that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years have expired.

Jesus called Satan "the ruler of this world" and the New Testament calls him "the prince of the power of the air who works in the sons of disobedience", who we are told will give the beast and false prophet his seat, power and great authority (Revelation Chapter 13). The saints are warned to be weary of his wiles and to resist him, and to put on the full armor of God because "we do not wrestle against flesh and blood" ( John 12:31; 1 Peter 5:8-9; Ephesians 6:11-12; Revelation 2:9-10 & Revelation 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 2:18; James 4:7 ).

Ephesians 2:2 tells us about Satan's influence over the societies of this world, this Age.

Revelation Chapters 12-13 portray this current status quo as spanning the entire present Age and culminating in the beast's war against the saints in Revelation Chapter 13 (see Revelation 13:7).

Revelation 20:4-6 is speaking about the resurrection of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Christ and refusal to worship the beast or his image. The beheading of any saint/s is only mentioned twice in the New Testament (Mark 6:16 and Revelation 20:4-6), and each time, for any saint to be seen living (záō) after their having been beheaded, is associated with their bodily resurrection (anastasis).

Scripture Check #2

Ezekiel prophesied that Israel and Judah would be gathered back into the land of their fathers and joined into one nation (Ezekiel 36:16-18 and Ezekiel 39:23-29; Ezekiel 37:15-28), see also Hosea 1:11 and Galatians 3:28)

Ezekiel Chapters 36-39 promise the whole house of Israel that the tabernacle of God will be in their midst forevermore; and Ezekiel Chapters 40-48 describe a new city and a new temple.

Revelation Chapters 7 & 21 describes a new city, and the tabernacle of God dwelling among those who came out of great tribulation, and those who overcame; and in Revelation Chapters 11 and 21, the tabernacle of God and the holy city are measured.

Ezekiel Chapters 40-48 give detailed dimensions of a new city and tabernacle.

The river of Life and trees growing on either side of its banks producing fruit which is for the healing of the nations is seen running out from the temple in both Ezekiel and in the Revelation (Ezekiel 47:1-12; Revelation 22:1-2).

Revelation Chapter 20's thousand years closes with the armies of Gog / Magog coming against "the camp of the saints".

In Ezekiel Chapters 38 & 39, Gog & Magog's war is against the people who had already been gathered back into the land of their fathers (Ezekiel 36:16-18 and Ezekiel 39:23-29). This is after the house of Israel and the house of Judah had been joined again into one nation (Ezekiel 37:15-28; Hosea 1:11; Galatians 3:28).

THE FINAL TEST OF MAN

Those whom John saw in Revelation 20:4-6 living after they had been beheaded for the Word of God and their testimony to Christ and their refusal to worship the beast or his image, had been tested the way Adam was, and overcame, and these souls are the only people of whom it is said that the second death has no power over them - but the text of Revelation Chapter 20 is completely silent about all the other saints who will have part in the first resurrection, whom the New Testament tells us will be raised from the dead when Christ returns (i.e the resurrection in Christ, who IS the resurrection and the life).

Why do we all assume that the Great White throne judgment must come after the thousand years? There are no divisions at all in the text before they were inserted in A.D 1227.

- which also means that the close of the millennium may be just like it was with Adam, whose name was in the Book of Life before he sinned, and who had lived for who knows how many years (a thousand years maybe?) in the Garden of Eden during God's sabbath, after God had breathed His Spirit into Adam, and he had become a living soul

- but who nevertheless fell when God allowed Satan to test him.

Adam is proof that a man having his name written in the Book of Life is no guarantee that when God allows Satan to test him, he will not fall.

There is a very big difference between those whose names were not found written in the Book of Life being thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death, and fire coming down from God out of Heaven and devouring those "who went up over the breadth of the earth and circled around the camp of the saints, and the beloved city".​

 

[parousia70]

Acts 2:16-17 Pentecost began that day. So in regards to Joel's prophecy; yes, it started with Pentecost.

Verb tense "I will pour out" denotes origin point in which event commences.

Yes, Joel’s last days prophecy began at Pentecost.

Your assertion that “the last days therefore began at Pentecost” remains an assertion without scriptural support.

Your further assertion that “Peter Said The last days began at Pentecost” is demonstrably untrue, and again, solely a resort of the bias you are imposing onto the text.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Yes, Joel’s last days prophecy began at Pentecost.

Your assertion that “the last days therefore began at Pentecost” remains an assertion without scriptural support.

Your further assertion that “Peter Said The last days began at Pentecost” is demonstrably untrue, and again, solely a resort of the bias you are imposing onto the text.

How are Joel's "last days" different than "the last days"?

Did Joel prophecy of some other "last days" than "the last days"?

How many sets of "last days" are there?

 

[claninja]

Yeah the phrase is also in Luke 21:32, Which is language regarding similar subject matter.

You want an interesting word study? Look up "this generation" in all the gospels. There's a lot of things in regards to that generation that would come to pass.

There's a couple of passage that talk about that generation being judged for all the blood of the prophets. Which I find to be an interesting statement that I can't say I know exactly why they would be held accountable for the blood of all the prophets? I'm guessing it has something to do with Jesus being the fulfillment of the prophecy.

Do you have an example of where that's used in the OT in regards to the fall of kingdoms? I don't recall ever coming across that.

Oh wait: correction - darkness in Egypt during the plagues.

Matthew 24:29 talks about "immediately after the tribulation... sun darkened, moon not give it's light..." Well, Matthew 27:45, Mark 15:33, Luke 23:44 all record the darkening of the sun having happened at the cross. And we know that wasn't a solar eclipse because it was a full moon. You can't have a solar eclipse on a full moon because the earth, moon and sun are not in the right positions in space for that to happen.

Interestingly too, the Romans and the Chinese actually recorded this "unusual eclipse". The Mayans also recorded an "unusual eclipse" but it's hard to pinpoint in history where their record of this was because it's hard to pinpoint where exactly their calendar started. But both Rome and China put it in the 1st century. (Jesus was crucified in 33 AD.)

Well here's another interesting one: Matthew 24:22, Mark 13:20. Both those verses say that if the tribulation wasn't "cut short" "no flesh would be saved". Well, ask yourself this question. Is the atonement complete? If you answer "yes" to that question, then the only conclusion you can come to is that what we call "the great tribulation" had to have taken place as part of the atonement.

Now the verses about "son of man coming in clouds of glory". Well compare that to Daniel 7:13. In that context where's the Son of man going to? (He's coming to the Ancient of Days.) Compare that to Revelation 5. "the lamb as was slain" standing before the Father to open the scrolls. Well who appears with him in heaven? (A great multitude who "came out of great tribulation".) Well what does Jesus say to the thief just before he dies? "This day you will be with me in paradise." Paradise is in the 3rd heaven.

So now if the great tribulation was part of the atonement; why was the sun darkened? Well it was "the great tribulation" because if the atonement hadn't been completed; that would have been the end of time. And I believe the sun was darkened "and the powers of heaven were shaken" because the cosmos was "coming unraveled".

Scripture also says that (after 3 PM - when the sun came back) Jesus looked around and "saw all things had been accomplished" John 19:28. Shortly after this he dies.

So the controversy of "this generation will see these things". That generation did see those things.

Honestly, I’m not really following your here. You seem to be saying that the OD is about the crucifixion? If so, I would disagree.

In any regard, the disciples’ generation was living at the end of the ages or last days, and did experience war, famine, earthquakes, false prophets, persecution, the mystery of lawlessness, the coming of the spirit of the antichrist, the gospel going to the whole oikoumene, the coming of the son of man on the clouds of heaven, the coming of the kingdom of God with power, the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, the days of vengeance to fulfill all that is written, and the gathering of the good and bad into the wedding hall.

They clearly wrote that they believed the “end was at hand” (1 Peter 4:7), that it was “the last hour” (1 John 2:18), that Christ would “come in a little while and without delay” (Hebrews 10:37), and that the coming of the Lord was at hand (James 5:8). And I would argue they believed those things because Christ told them it would happen in their generation .

 

[The Righterzpen]

You seem to be saying that the OD is about the crucifixion? If so, I would disagree.

OD? Not sure what that stands for. (Typo?)

Honestly, I’m not really following your here.

Well, if you have questions; I'll try and answer them.

I know probably all of us have been taught things about eschatology that don't match all of Scripture. I remember sitting in the base library when I was in the military reading books on eschatology and thinking to myself: Well gee, if that's really what's going to happen; I'm disappointed. I didn't understand a lot of it, then it dawned on me that the books I was reading didn't' really make much sense!

Later on, I helped out a radio station that was sending Bibles to Russia and I got a couple of lessons in how to compare the Bible to itself to find the answers I was looking for and so that's what I started doing. And 30 plus years later, I've found a lot of information that way. Then of course taking all these puzzle pieces and putting them all together so they fit and started to assemble a comprehensible picture.

I had a lot of "wow; that's what that means..." moments. And some good "Yeah, look at what I found over here!" conversations bouncing off of other people who had; most of all the humility to search things out. So yeah, even when I'd encounter people who I knew their gospel was messed up (like Jehovah's witnesses) I'd still have to dig so I could figure out why they were wrong.

So consequently, most of what I've learned has been obtained simply by digging around looking for comparative words and verses in concordances; finding as many "pieces of the puzzle" as I could and trying to figure out how they fit together.

In any regard, the disciples’ generation was living at the end of the ages or last days, and did experience war, famine, earthquakes, false prophets, persecution, the mystery of lawlessness, the coming of the spirit of the antichrist, the gospel going to the whole oikoumene, the coming of the son of man on the clouds of heaven, the coming of the kingdom of God with power, the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, the days of vengeance to fulfill all that is written, and the gathering of the good and bad into the wedding hall.

Yeah they were. They lived through the end of God's dealings with the Old Testament. The Messiah had come; it was a brave new world.

They clearly wrote that they believed the “end was at hand” (1 Peter 4:7), that it was “the last hour” (1 John 2:18), that Christ would “come in a little while and without delay” (Hebrews 10:37), and that the coming of the Lord was at hand (James 5:8). And I would argue they believed those things because Christ told them it would happen in their generation .

Though yes, they honestly did believe Jesus was going to return in their lifetime. We can't deny that things (like what you've quoted here) made it into the Scripture for a reason. And how do we reconcile these things with the fact that 2000 years have passed now? That's quite the mind bender! No doubt; it's a real challenge to understand!

But we keep digging; because God said "Seek and you shall find."

 

[3 Resurrections]

Though yes, they honestly did believe Jesus was going to return in their lifetime. We can't deny that things (like what you've quoted here) made it into the Scripture for a reason. And how do we reconcile these things with the fact that 2000 years have passed now? That's quite the mind bender! No doubt; it's a real challenge to understand!

It's not so much of a challenge if you can ask yourself the following question: Is it possible that there was not only a second coming of Christ which occurred back in the first century, but also a THIRD coming scheduled for our future as well? I asked myself this question about ten years ago, and the answer solved all the seeming contradictions between the scriptures that had been frustrating me.

But we keep digging; because God said "Seek and you shall find.

Exactly right. "They that seek the Lord understand all things."

 

[The Righterzpen]

It's not so much of a challenge if you can ask yourself the following question: Is it possible that there was not only a second coming of Christ which occurred back in the first century, but also a THIRD coming scheduled for our future as well? I asked myself this question about ten years ago, and the answer solved all the seeming contradictions between the scriptures that had been frustrating me.

Your problem here is that there is nothing in the Scripture that says: "When the son of man shall come again after he already came" (or) "come the 3nd time".

One may try to argue that the incarnation was the 1st coming (no one would argue with that) and that the resurrection was the "2nd coming". Except the problem with that argument is that Jesus's body never left the earth.

Exactly right. "They that seek the Lord understand all things."

Seek and you shall find; doesn't translate into "understand all things"; or at least not on this side of the grave it doesn't!

 

[3 Resurrections]

Your problem here is that there is nothing in the Scripture that says: "When the son of man shall come again after he already came" (or) "come the 3nd time".

There are scriptures that do present proof of a third bodily resurrection event at a third coming of Christ, but on this particular forum, it isn't permitted to list them.

But the theme of this post concerning the "last days" was spoken of all the way back in Deuteronomy 31-32 from the song Moses taught to the children of Israel. Moses warned them that their eventual corrupt dealings when they turned into "the vine of Sodom" would result in all sorts of tragedy, in which "...evil will befall you in the latter days..." (Deut. 31:29). Moses listed those various disasters which would come, and then grieved for the nation of Israel that would experience God's judgment, saying, "O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!"

The "last days" which was spoken of in the NT was the upcoming "latter end" of the people of Israel, when the Lord's vengeance for the blood of His slain servants would fall on them, and their "power" would be gone. It was not the "last days" of all human history, however;

(And by the way, your testimony on your website is a very moving one. I had time to read almost all of it, and can likewise testify that God's grace is astounding.)

 

[The Righterzpen]

(And by the way, your testimony on your website is a very moving one. I had time to read almost all of it, and can likewise testify that God's grace is astounding.)

Well I'm surprised you read it. You are the first person from this site that's told me they read it without me telling them it was there.

The "last days" which was spoken of in the NT was the upcoming "latter end" of the people of Israel, when the Lord's vengeance for the blood of His slain servants would fall on them, and their "power" would be gone. It was not the "last days" of all human history, however;

Although it's true there was an "end of the eon" that applied to Judaism, that was a different event then the "end of the ages".

There's no indication in the NT that Christ returned at any time from 33 AD on. There was no "2nd coming" related to the end of Judaism. That's an erroneous doctrine. (Assuming you're talking about a "tack on" to the idea of full Preterism? Scripture is pretty clear though. The return of Christ is at the end of time.

The stuff in Matthew 24; that people allege is a future event; actually isn't. Not to say that we won't face a "end of time tribulation"; (because I think we are in it now), but what's commonly referred to as "the great tribulation"; based on a lot of information I've found in the Bible. That was part of the atonement.

As far as "Israel" goes? One of two things happened to the genetic descendants of Jacob. They either obeyed Christ and fled the area; eventually becoming part of the gentile church; or they were destroyed by the Roman army. And those who became part of the gentile church (or parts of gentile communities) ceased to be "Jewish" in terms of religion. They integrated into the other communities and as the centuries passed; there is no "Jewish blood lines" any more.

There are 3 "ethnicities" within the community of modern adherence to Judaism and only one of those groups (Mizrahi) has the potential of actually being partial descendants of Jacob. They would have been the minority from the Babylonian captivity who never returned to Judea and basically stayed in the Middle East. The Sephardim (African "branch") may have some connection to Solomon through the Queen of Sheba; but that would be really hard to prove without any lineage to compare to. The Ashkenazi (who make up about 85% of modern "Jews"); aren't even Semitic. They are ethnically Indo-European.

Most people in the Middle East (from Turkey to India to mid-North East Africa; plus South eastern Europe) have "ancient Semitic markers". But it can't be proven if those were originally from Ishmael or Esau; as both of these lines had Abraham as their common ancestor.

Because there was a lot of conversions to Christianity out of the 18th through early 20th centuries from the Ashkenazi ethnicity; those genetic markers are very common in European populations and rather common in American populations too. Most people who's ancestors are from Eastern Europe have Ashkenazi DNA.

So the "NT upcoming latter end of the people of Israel"; doesn't have any historical basis; because for all intent and purposes; there is no more Israel; or at least anyone connected to the ancient tribes as any kind of "pure blood".

 

[3 Resurrections]

Well I'm surprised you read it. You are the first person from this site that's told me they read it without me telling them it was there.

I want to know people's background to understand where they are coming from and how their views originate - regardless of whether I totally agree with them or not in what they post. It makes that person relatable as a real brother or sister in Christ. And you and I share quite a few biographical elements. I can tell that you also love to write - it shows.

Although it's true there was an "end of the eon" that applied to Judaism, that was a different event then the "end of the ages".

Errrr, I would have to disagree. They really are the same. Hebrews 9:26 spoke of the time of Christ's crucifixion, saying, "...but NOW once IN THE END OF THE AGES (or "consummation of the ages") hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." This tells us that Christ's sacrificial act took place THEN at the "consummation of the ages" - in THAT first-century generation. That is the significance of the time-relevant word "NOW" for the original audience who received Hebrews.

I am of the conviction that scripture presents fallen mankind's history being composed of a total of seven millennial ages (each lasting a literal thousand years) until you and I begin our immortal existence after the final resurrection. At the time of Christ's crucifixion, that pivotal event took place at the close of the 4th millennial age in AD 33 (the end of the particular thousand years period which Revelation 20 referred to). The "ages that are coming" which Paul referred to in Ephesians 2:7 were future-to-him ages of mankind's history in which the already-established New Covenant would be functioning.

At the "consummation" of those 4 former millennial ages, the Old Covenant died with Christ's death, resurrection, and resurrection-day ascension when He was established as our "Great High Priest". This manifested a "change in the law" over to the New Covenant (Hebrews 7:12). After that change in AD 33, it only remained for God to physically destroy (during the AD 66-70 period) all the leftover dead and decaying elements which had composed the old order of a physical temple worship system under Judaism.

As far as "Israel" goes? One of two things happened to the genetic descendants of Jacob. They either obeyed Christ and fled the area; eventually becoming part of the gentile church; or they were destroyed by the Roman army. And those who became part of the gentile church (or parts of gentile communities) ceased to be "Jewish" in terms of religion. They integrated into the other communities and as the centuries passed; there is no "Jewish blood lines" any more.

Absolutely, I'm in sync with you here. This is only supporting my case, however. God physically got rid of the genealogical tribal records in Jerusalem by literally burning them to ashes early on in the AD 66-70 period. This destruction of Israel's genealogical tribal records was prophesied by Malachi 4 when he wrote about the "great and dreadful day of the Lord" which would "burn like an oven" and destroy the proud and the wicked, both "root" (prior genealogical tribal ancestry) and "branch" (any future ethnic tribal distinctions).

Malachi 4:4 warned the people of Israel to "Remember ye the law of Moses my servant". This was a reminder for them to recall the "song of Moses" which he had taught them back in Deuteronomy 31-32 about their own prophesied "latter end "during the "last days" of judgment for the ethnic people of Israel.

So the "NT upcoming latter end of the people of Israel"; doesn't have any historical basis; because for all intent and purposes; there is no more Israel; or at least anyone connected to the ancient tribes as any kind of "pure blood".

There is not an "upcoming" latter end of the ethnic people of Israel. This was already accomplished back in the AD 66-70 period. That is why you are absolutely correct that "there is no more Israel; or at least anyone connected to the ancient tribes as any kind of 'pure blood' ". These tribal distinctions fulfilled their main purpose, once Christ Jesus was born as prophesied out of the specific tribe of Judah which had been predicted from old time. The walls of the New Jerusalem reality we live in presently have as the 12 foundations "the 12 Apostles of the Lamb" - not the 12 tribes, which form the 12 gates.

There's no indication in the NT that Christ returned at any time from 33 AD on. There was no "2nd coming" related to the end of Judaism. That's an erroneous doctrine. (Assuming you're talking about a "tack on" to the idea of full Preterism? Scripture is pretty clear though. The return of Christ is at the end of time.

Yes, there is indication in the NT of a soon-to-come fulfillment of this. Many scriptures testify to the imminence of this. And there is also physical archaeological evidence of this today at Jerusalem which matches Zechariah 14's predictions. But scriptures never do mention "an end of TIME" - only a "time of the end". When you and I are resurrected into the immortal state, it's true that we will cease to tabulate the years of our existence through eternity, but that hardly means time itself will cease. Scripture says about God that "Thy years shall have no end", but this still acknowledges the passage of time by the use of the term "years".

 

[The Righterzpen]

I want to know people's background to understand where they are coming from and how their views originate - regardless of whether I totally agree with them or not in what they post. It makes that person relatable as a real brother or sister in Christ. And you and I share quite a few biographical elements. I can tell that you also love to write - it shows.

Well, writing has been very useful to me as a "thought organizational" element too. One way of dealing with my environment as a kid was to make up stories in my head. And along the path of my schooling, some of those story elements would make their way on paper. Many teachers told me I was a good story writer; which was encouraging.

At one point I wanted to be a professional writer; and at this point I probably have enough practice at it to do so; but I've come to a place where publishing stuff on Fan Fiction is good enough. I have quite a variety of talents; but I also have circumstances of life that take up a lot of time (basically (and at current) my son's medical issues). So, life just "goes as it goes". We all reserve the right to change our minds about what ever at the point it becomes necessary to do so.

Errrr, I would have to disagree. They really are the same. Hebrews 9:26 spoke of the time of Christ's crucifixion, saying, "...but NOW once IN THE END OF THE AGES (or "consummation of the ages") hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." This tells us that Christ's sacrificial act took place THEN at the "consummation of the ages" - in THAT first-century generation. That is the significance of the time-relevant word "NOW" for the original audience who received Hebrews.

The atonement though is a different issue than the end of Judaism. The whole point of the OT was to direct people to the coming Messiah; who's purpose was to atone for sin. So thus yes, "the end of the ages" and the "end of the eon" are two different things.

What comes post atonement in earthly time; is the last "eon". It says it's "the end of the ages" because obviously there have been multiple ages that have transpired before the death, burial and resurrection. Although I don't think Scripture ever calls the era post Pentecost an "age". The closest we get is Matthew 12:32. Jesus says of blaspheming the Holy Spirit that they won't be forgiven in this (English translation says "world" but the Greek is the word "eon") "or "of that" to come". Thus technically it isn't even calling "that to come" an eon.

Which does raise the question of what is this post Pentecost time span if it's not "an age". Only thing we're told is that it's "the end of the ages". Thus implying this is a unique time span.

So I don't disagree that "the end of the ages" started (at the latest) from Pentecost on. But that still doesn't constitute the idea that Christ has (or will) return more than once.

I am of the conviction that scripture presents fallen mankind's history being composed of a total of seven millennial ages (each lasting a literal thousand years) until you and I begin our immortal existence after the final resurrection. At the time of Christ's crucifixion, that pivotal event took place at the close of the 4th millennial age in AD 33 (the end of the particular thousand years period which Revelation 20 referred to). The "ages that are coming" which Paul referred to in Ephesians 2:7 were future-to-him ages of mankind's history in which the already-established New Covenant would be functioning.

Ephesians 2:7 does give us more information about "ages". In this passage, it is future tense and it is the term "eon". Although the verb "to come" is in the present tense; meaning one of those "future ages" has already commenced.

Now interestingly, go back to Matthew 12:32. The (age) to come is also presented in present tense. So did the "age of the atonement" commence with the appearance of John the Baptist in the wilderness and conclude with Pentecost starting the next "age"? In Matthew 12:32 "that to come" is singular, just as "this age" is also singular. So apparently "the end of the ages" commenced with the beginning of the events of the NT.

Now I know a lot of people believe in this 7 thousand year earth idea. I don't believe that's accurate though. There's good evidence out of the Bible that this planet is older than that. We're not talking billions of years; but more like 13 thousand. And Noah's flood fell almost (but precisely of a thousand years) half way between the commencement of creation and the incarnation. The flood was 5000 BC and Adam was 11,000 BC.

Now is there's "an eon" that's 1000 years post "crucifixion / Pentecost" to another "tacked on" millennium? That doesn't seen to be the case though because "reign 1000 years" the "1000 years" in the Greek, is a duel plural. (2000 years?) and we are still in that time span.

So in reference to Ephesians 2:7; there's one age that has commenced and another known to come. Well according to the epistles; the known "eon" to come would be the incorruptible recreated cosmos.

At the "consummation" of those 4 former millennial ages, the Old Covenant died with Christ's death, resurrection, and resurrection-day ascension when He was established as our "Great High Priest". This manifested a "change in the law" over to the New Covenant (Hebrews 7:12). After that change in AD 33, it only remained for God to physically destroy (during the AD 66-70 period) all the leftover dead and decaying elements which had composed the old order of a physical temple worship system under Judaism.

Now I agree that one of the things that is stated that has happened in the "eon" that both Ephesians 2:7 and Matthew 12:32 speaks of as the destruction of the OT system. That was necessary. When that which is perfect is come; the old is done away with.

Malachi 4:4 warned the people of Israel to "Remember ye the law of Moses my servant". This was a reminder for them to recall the "song of Moses" which he had taught them back in Deuteronomy 31-32 about their own prophesied "latter end "during the "last days" of judgment for the ethnic people of Israel.

And Judgement was pronounced upon them for their disobedience; just as it was pronounced upon those who perished in the wilderness because of their disobedience. (Hebrews 14:17)

Yes, there is indication in the NT of a soon-to-come fulfillment of this. Many scriptures testify to the imminence of this. And there is also physical archaeological evidence of this today at Jerusalem which matches Zechariah 14's predictions. But scriptures never do mention "an end of TIME" - only a "time of the end". When you and I are resurrected into the immortal state, it's true that we will cease to tabulate the years of our existence through eternity, but that hardly means time itself will cease. Scripture says about God that "Thy years shall have no end", but this still acknowledges the passage of time by the use of the term "years".

Scripture absolutely mentions an "end of time"! Revelation 10:6 says there's "time no longer".

Time was set in motion when the cosmos was created. Genesis 1:14 says that the sun and moon are given for "seasons, days and years". Yet in the new heavens there's no sun and no moon. (Revelation 21:23)

And yes there was a "precursor resurrection" in the days after Jesus rose; but no where does it say that was a "return" of Christ. (Matthew 27:53) The "holy city" they walked around in is the New Jerusalem in heaven. So if this is what you mean by "archeological evidence in Jerusalem" Yes, there's lots of evidence of earthquake activity and graves that were literally opened. That was "many" though; not "all".

So unless I misunderstood what you meant by "3 resurrections"? Could one argue that Enoch, Moses and Elijah were their own "bodily resurrections"; prior to Jesus even being raised? (In chronological earthy time yes; they were raised before Jesus was.) But those were not mass numbers of people either.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Well, writing has been very useful to me as a "thought organizational" element too.

You've got that right, for sure. The second person of the Trinity wasn't called "The WORD" for nothing. God wanted to communicate with His creatures in language that could be preserved through the generations. Writing down my eschatology studies for the last ten years has been nothing short of a revolution in my life. Because it doesn't just stay limited to eschatology; it stretches it's influence into many other doctrinal areas as well. In all my years as a believer from elementary school into my senior years, I have never sensed God's presence and purpose as strongly as I have this last decade. It comes with a cost, though.

Now I know a lot of people believe in this 7 thousand year earth idea. I don't believe that's accurate though. There's good evidence out of the Bible that this planet is older than that. We're not talking billions of years; but more like 13 thousand.

I have a very dear friend who also ascribes to the 13,000-year timeline, and he often refers to Tony Warren's timeline to justify this point. But after I read Tony Warren's reasons for the way he calculates history to arrive at this approximate 13,000-years-to-date timeline, I found that Mr. Warren has a very strange understanding of what the word "beget" means for a father. In addition, his entire system for calculating his timeline is based on his own interpreted reason for an incorrectly-inserted descendant (Cainan) in Luke 3:36's genealogy who is not found in any of the Hebrew copies , nor in 1 Chronicles 1:24 where the genealogy is repeated. For these reasons, I can't ascribe to Warren's patriarchal "gaps" that extend the genealogy list to almost double its true length.

Actually, I don't see scripture limiting the planet to only 7,000 years of existence, since "the earth abideth forever", we are told. The 7,000-year time limitation I see being put on fallen mankind's history on this planet, before God finally destroys all human wickedness out of it in His future return.

God has allowed this world over the millennia to experience various changes of the Satanic realm's activity in it. Satan's demonic realm was active and unrestrained for the first 3,000 years, after Adam and Eve had relinquished their dominion over the planet into Satan's hands when they yielded obedience to his deception. This gave Satan the "kingdoms of this world" at the time, just as he boasted to Christ in the wilderness temptation.

God then bound Satan from deceiving the nations during the 4th millennium of fallen mankind's history, dated from the time of Solomon's temple foundation stone being laid down in 968/967 BC until AD 33. This literal thousand years of a physical temple worship system in Jerusalem brought the knowledge of Israel's God into the surrounding nations, and limited Satan's deception of those nations, aided greatly by the prophets' ministries of that period. Not all heeded this influence, but at least they could not claim that their evil actions came from being deceived in ignorance anymore.

When that millennium ended in AD 33 with the "First resurrection" event of Christ and the Matthew 27:52-53 saints, Satan was released from that millennial chain and went out to deceive the nations again in great fury, knowing he only had a "short time" left to operate (Revelation 12:12) until he and his demonic realm were all destroyed in Jerusalem in AD 70 and turned to ashes. This is why that generation had all the NT warnings about Satan walking about "like a roaring lion", and needing to put on the armor of God to resist Satan's attacks, etc.

But since that AD 70 destruction of Satan and his devils, for the next 3,000 years, fallen mankind has performed, and will continue to perform evil all on its own, without any demonic or Satanic presence around anymore to instigate that evil. This is God's way of proving to all of us that "...out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies..." (Matthew 15:19). We have no one but ourselves to blame in these New Covenant ages for any evil being committed in this world presently.

Scripture absolutely mentions an "end of time"! Revelation 10:6 says there's "time no longer".

That is a bad translation. Actually, the majority of the translations have it saying, "There shall be DELAY no longer". The wickedness of that first-century generation had "filled up the cup of their fathers," and "wrath had come upon them to the uttermost". I repeat: there is no place in scripture that speaks of an end of time itself. Time can exist without any "clocks" around to measure its passage.

And yes there was a "precursor resurrection" in the days after Jesus rose; but no where does it say that was a "return" of Christ. (Matthew 27:53) The "holy city" they walked around in is the New Jerusalem in heaven. So if this is what you mean by "archeological evidence in Jerusalem" Yes, there's lots of evidence of earthquake activity and graves that were literally opened. That was "many" though; not "all".

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to give the impression that I proposed a second coming "return" of Christ at his AD 33 resurrection, which John called "the FIRST resurrection" in Rev. 20:5. And you are right; Matthew 27:52-53 was "many" not "all" who were raised from their graves around Jerusalem. That is why John said they were only "the REMNANT (loipoi) of the dead" who came to life again in that "First resurrection". It was only a comparatively small fraction of the righteous dead that arose to live again that day in AD 33 (it amounted to 144,000 of those Jewish tribal members as the "First-fruits"). Many of those present in the city of Jerusalem for Passover saw these resurrected, glorified saints, as a sample of what the believers could expect for themselves if they died before Christ's coming return.

As for that coming return, Daniel 12:11-13 had already informed his readers that a resurrection would occur on the 1,335th day following two critical events: the abomination of desolation ("Jerusalem surrounded by armies"), being set up during the same season when a daily sacrifice was taken away. That was the second resurrection event prophesied. Christ said that some of his audience would not have died before they saw His return in glory (Matthew 16:28), and He also reminded his disciples that Daniel had spoken of the timing for this (Matthew 24:15).

The "archeological evidence in Jerusalem" I spoke of is the deep, second layer of landslide rubble (dated to the first century) lying along the length of the Kidron Valley today. This material was dislodged from the crest of the Mount of Olives breaking apart at Christ's return, just as Zechariah 14:4-5 in the LXX had promised would happen. Zechariah predicted that the Kidron Valley would be "blocked up as far as Azal" (just as it was in King Uzziah's day) by the landslide rubble created by another earthquake when the returning Christ stood on the Mount of Olives.

 

[The Righterzpen]

You've got that right, for sure. The second person of the Trinity wasn't called "The WORD" for nothing. God wanted to communicate with His creatures in language that could be preserved through the generations. Writing down my eschatology studies for the last ten years has been nothing short of a revolution in my life. Because it doesn't just stay limited to eschatology; it stretches it's influence into many other doctrinal areas as well. In all my years as a believer from elementary school into my senior years, I have never sensed God's presence and purpose as strongly as I have this last decade. It comes with a cost, though.

Well my studies of Scripture have never been "subject based specific". The primary goal has always been to understand God better. (Philippians 3:10) And from there; the things I research cross many other subjects. The foremost goal though is a better understanding of God.

And it is certainly a labor. I've logged a lot of hours flipping through concordances, lexicons, interlinear Bibles and grammatical word help type reference materials. I've also spent a fair time researching what ever truths I could find in subjects like history and science too.

I have a very dear friend who also ascribes to the 13,000-year timeline, and he often refers to Tony Warren's timeline to justify this point. But after I read Tony Warren's reasons for the way he calculates history to arrive at this approximate 13,000-years-to-date timeline, I found that Mr. Warren has a very strange understanding of what the word "beget" means for a father. In addition, his entire system for calculating his timeline is based on his own interpreted reason for an incorrectly-inserted descendant (Cainan) in Luke 3:36's genealogy who is not found in any of the Hebrew copies , nor in 1 Chronicles 1:24 where the genealogy is repeated. For these reasons, I can't ascribe to Warren's patriarchal "gaps" that extend the genealogy list to almost double its true length.

Well, if you believe the NT was written by inspiration of the Holy Spirit than the addition in Luke's genealogy isn't an accident. And if it's not an accident, then Warren's timeline stands on a substantiated possibility.

Now is there other information we've gleaned from things like radio active carbon 14 decay, the rate of mineral saturation in the oceans, scientific information that can be gleaned from things like rock core samples. Things like that which don't appear to bear any relevance to the age of the cosmos; but actually does.

Then add to that things related to the records of human civilizations. There are remnants of civilizations under the oldest ones we know that we don't understand their writing. Under the oldest known Chinese civilization is a layer of mud about 15 or so kilometers thick and underneath that is another city. Well the writing of that civilization is a totally different linguistic structure than Chinese. It resembles ancient Near Eastern cuneiform writing. Which is a very different writing system than Chinese style. And yet no one can decipher that writing because there's no chain of linguistic evolution. The Mayans is another similar issue. We can decipher that writing; and can "ball park" the era of the civilization but there's a lot we don't know because we don't know where their calendar started. Then there's another civilization that predates the Mayans that we can't figure out their language.

Then there's other Bible texts themselves. For example, if you go with the traditional interpretation of genealogies and "begat"; then we have Methuselah surviving the flood. Well we know that can't be, because Methuselah wasn't on the ark and Scripture clearly says that everything that was on land died. Then we have people try all kinds of gymnastics with the text to justify their 6 thousand year timeline.

Actually, I don't see scripture limiting the planet to only 7,000 years of existence, since "the earth abideth forever", we are told. The 7,000-year time limitation I see being put on fallen mankind's history on this planet, before God finally destroys all human wickedness out of it in His future return.

Here again though, this doesn't jive with Scripture. Genesis is pretty clear. Creation was completed in six 24 hour days. And we know that within at the latest 9 months from the creation came the fall. We know this because no children were born in Eden.

This is the problem theistic evolution has. There's no death until after the fall. And the evolutionary model requires death; because it's based on the concept of "survival of the fittest".

God has allowed this world over the millennia to experience various changes of the Satanic realm's activity in it. Satan's demonic realm was active and unrestrained for the first 3,000 years, after Adam and Eve had relinquished their dominion over the planet into Satan's hands when they yielded obedience to his deception. This gave Satan the "kingdoms of this world" at the time, just as he boasted to Christ in the wilderness temptation.

Now principally, I agree with this; but it was more than 3000 years from Adam to Solomon. Abraham was 1000 years before Solomon. And there's a lot of people in the genealogy between Adam and Abraham. Ur was the up and running, fully functioning capital of Sumer in 2000 BC.

And somewhere in the 1000 years before that the earth is totally repopulated by 3 couples who came off the ark from a flood that covered the planet?

According to "Our World in Data" it took 2000 years to go from 4 million people to 8 million people. (Their estimate is from 10,000 BC to 8,000 BC.) Now compare from 1800 (1 billion people) to 2023 (7.8 billion people) It took 10,000 years to get 1 billion people and 200 years to add 7 billion to that 1 billion. (Them's some staggering statistics!)

Now is their estimate of 72 million in the world in 2000 BC accurate; (Time of Abraham.) I don't know? But the time it takes to double the population decreases the more people there are to double the population. And smaller populations have a different growth algorithm than large populations.

According to creation.com; to go from 12 couples to an approximate 2.7 million people in just 215 would have been difficult to accomplish; particularly in the circumstances they faced. So the 430 years is probably more likely the Egyptian sojourn.

So assuming 3 couples would have produced 1/4 that = almost 700,000 (675,000) in 430 years. But we have a caveat to Exodus. That caveat is that a lot of other people who were living in Egypt left with them. (Exodus 12:36) And according to the root word from "multitude" this wasn't a small number. The root is translated "10 thousand" (or possibly 10X?) in one translation.

So assuming the 2.7 million is the total number added to the nation by both natural blood lines of Jacob's sons as well as other ethnic converts. Now what populations of which we don't know; but if "multitude" is actually "10X". that would mean that only about 1/10 of the people who left Egypt were actually descendants of Jacob. This is 270,000 descendants of Jacob. 1/2 that by 4 generations and you have about 1000 people from each of the 12 tribes coming into Egypt. Considering wives, children, household members, assumed in-laws (they would have had adult children) That is a reasonable number of people.

Genesis 15:16 says they would return in the 4th generation. Assuming the generation of Moses was the 4th generation; this makes sense. Moses and Aaron were in their early 120's when they died. Which would make a generation 107 years of a 430 year sojourn. But if it was 215 year sojourn; that's 53 years a "generation" which given Moe's age means he would have been born 135 years after Joseph's brothers came to Egypt. Joseph lived to be 110 years old; which would have made Moe's generation the 2nd generation; not the 4th.

So thus the numbers only make sense with a 430 year sojourn.
Generation:
1. Levi's time in Egypt (137-60) ................................... 77 years
2. Kohath period of patriarchal leadership...... 133 years
3. Amram period of patriarchal leadership....... 137 years
4. Aaron's age at the time of the Exodus .......... 83 years
(Exodus 7:7)

God then bound Satan from deceiving the nations during the 4th millennium of fallen mankind's history, dated from the time of Solomon's temple foundation stone being laid down in 968/967 BC until AD 33. This literal thousand years of a physical temple worship system in Jerusalem brought the knowledge of Israel's God into the surrounding nations, and limited Satan's deception of those nations, aided greatly by the prophets' ministries of that period. Not all heeded this influence, but at least they could not claim that their evil actions came from being deceived in ignorance anymore.

This is interesting; that Solomon's temple to the crucifixion is 1000 years. (I'd never caught that before.) Got some other details on that 1000 years I could do some digging on!

Now as for this being the 1000 year binding of Satan? I've never heard that before. I'd have to do a little research on that. Interesting theory.

When that millennium ended in AD 33 with the "First resurrection" event of Christ and the Matthew 27:52-53 saints, Satan was released from that millennial chain and went out to deceive the nations again in great fury, knowing he only had a "short time" left to operate (Revelation 12:12) until he and his demonic realm were all destroyed in Jerusalem in AD 70 and turned to ashes. This is why that generation had all the NT warnings about Satan walking about "like a roaring lion", and needing to put on the armor of God to resist Satan's attacks, etc.

Interesting idea but it doesn't jive with Revelation 20.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

If the rest of the dead were raised at the end of the 1000 years; that could not have concluded in 33 AD; because those that were raised were only "many" not "all".

You also have verse 4; these are people martyred for the witness of Christ. They "live and reign with Christ 1000 years". Christ doesn't begin His reign until after the resurrection. (Ephesians 1:19-23)

The end of Revelation 20 talks about Satan being cast into the Lake of Fire with the beast and the false prophet. If you believe the beast exists now; then you have conflicting ideas between your theory and what Revelation 20 says.

The very next verse following this talks about the "great white throne judgement".
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

But since that AD 70 destruction of Satan and his devils, for the next 3,000 years, fallen mankind has performed, and will continue to perform evil all on its own, without any demonic or Satanic presence around anymore to instigate that evil. This is God's way of proving to all of us that "...out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies..." (Matthew 15:19). We have no one but ourselves to blame in these New Covenant ages for any evil being committed in this world presently.

I agree with you here in the concept of: It wasn't the Devil that made me do it. Our sin has always been made manifest because of our own fallen nature.

That is a bad translation. Actually, the majority of the translations have it saying, "There shall be DELAY no longer". The wickedness of that first-century generation had "filled up the cup of their fathers," and "wrath had come upon them to the uttermost". I repeat: there is no place in scripture that speaks of an end of time itself. Time can exist without any "clocks" around to measure its passage.

Not sure where you got your translation of Revelation 10:6 from?

Nowhere in any of the variants of the words "shall be", "time", "no", and "longer". Is it ever translated "delay".

.... that (I Am)/shall time (season, while, space) no (absolute negative) (from prime word) "year" and "yet", "longer", "season".

So let me ask you this: did "time" (as we understand it today) exist before there was a creation?

 

[The Righterzpen]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to give the impression that I proposed a second coming "return" of Christ at his AD 33

Well I'm glad that's cleared up.

It was only a comparatively small fraction of the righteous dead that arose to live again that day in AD 33 (it amounted to 144,000 of those Jewish tribal members as the "First-fruits"). Many of those present in the city of Jerusalem for Passover saw these resurrected, glorified saints, as a sample of what the believers could expect for themselves if they died before Christ's coming return.

Take a close look at Revelation 5. The "144,000" is only a completeness of the 12 tribes. Beginning of Revelation 7 they are "sealed".

Now look at verse 9:
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Now when it says they walked around "in the holy city" Revelation 21:2. Once the resurrection has happened; earthy Jerusalem is not "the holy (or "set apart") city" any longer; it has become Babylon the Mother of Harlots.

As for that coming return, Daniel 12:11-13 had already informed his readers that a resurrection would occur on the 1,335th day following two critical events: the abomination of desolation ("Jerusalem surrounded by armies"), being set up during the same season when a daily sacrifice was taken away. That was the second resurrection event prophesied. Christ said that some of his audience would not have died before they saw His return in glory (Matthew 16:28), and He also reminded his disciples that Daniel had spoken of the timing for this (Matthew 24:15).

An argument could be made too for the time span between the angel appearing to John the Baptist's father and Herod trying to kill Jesus / Jesus going into Egypt. (The 1290 days.)

On the other end of this the 1335 fits into the resurrection (of Christ) / or the ascension / or Pentecost / the ascension back to the preaching of John the Baptist. I haven't been able to pinpoint it specifically to Jewish feast days though. The closest I get is from the first new moon after the commencement of the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar to the resurrection.

The first new moon after the commencement of the reign of Tiberius fell on a Sunday. Which was "feast of the 9th day of Ave" This isn't a Scripturally prescribed feast though; it's the day stated as a "day of mourning" because Israel got scared at the report of the spies from the promised land (40 years post exodus) But also allegedly both temples were destroyed on this day. Obviously in the 1st century this hadn't happened yet.

Now though they claim there is a correlation between the destruction of the temple (Babylonian captivity) and the 1st century; but I can't confirm that based on Scripture because the date of the destruction of Herod's temple is not recorded in Scripture.

Matthew 16:28 is probably a reference to all but Judas, who was the only one who died before Jesus did. The Greek word "some" (of you) is actually "those of you". Which, basically included all present but Judas. "coming in his Kingdom" was probably a reference to the resurrection.

Yet the verse before that is clearly talking about "the last day". / the end of time / the final Judgement. We know this because of the phrase "shall reward every man according to his works" as well as "come in the glory of his Father with his angels".

Jesus does this in Matthew 24 too. He gives information about events that are thousands of years apart without explaining they are thousands of years apart. (Think he does that on purpose. On account of the fact that we are suppose to be Bereans. (Proverbs 25:2)) = Stay on your toes people!

Matthew 24:15 is interesting too because it says "whosoever reads" (not whosoever hears) It wasn't addressed to the people who were standing in front of him; it was addressed to the people who would read what they wrote later!

The "archeological evidence in Jerusalem" I spoke of is the deep, second layer of landslide rubble (dated to the first century) lying along the length of the Kidron Valley today. This material was dislodged from the crest of the Mount of Olives breaking apart at Christ's return, just as Zechariah 14:4-5 in the LXX had promised would happen. Zechariah predicted that the Kidron Valley would be "blocked up as far as Azal" (just as it was in King Uzziah's day) by the landslide rubble created by another earthquake when the returning Christ stood on the Mount of Olives.

Zechariah 14:4-5 I think is a reference to the resurrection earthquake because Jesus was buried on the Mt. of Olives.

Assuming you are familiar with the geography of the land? The red heifer alter was on the Mt. of Olives. The red heifer alter and the temple faced each other because the priests needed to be able to see each other in order to correctly perform the ceremonies.

We also know Golgotha was on the Mt. of Olives because Scripture says the soldiers witnessed the veil of the temple being torn and the only way they would have seen that was if they were facing the temple. Well the only thing that was across from the temple was the Mt. of Olives. The Red Heifer alter and Golgotha were most likely on the top of the hills; and the cemetery was beneath them. The "rich people cemetery" was on the right hand side near the bottom of the mount; which was probably where Joseph of Arimathia's tomb was. And we know there was an earthquake there.

Now did the earthquake "take out" Golgotha? (I don't know; it's possible seeing how no one has been able to find it since and no one really seems to know where it was.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Well, if you believe the NT was written by inspiration of the Holy Spirit than the addition in Luke's genealogy isn't an accident. And if it's not an accident, then Warren's timeline stands on a substantiated possibility.

I read that Warren's inclusion of Cainan is proven wrong by the oldest Luke manuscript we have (the P75), dating from the second century. Cainan is not listed in that manuscript's genealogy in between Arphaxad and Salah his son, and it is certainly not found in the 1 Chronicles 1:24 repetition of this genealogy list, nor was it originally found in the Septuagint either. If Warren is basing his extended patriarchal genealogies on this Cainan's existence alone, his resulting age-of-the-world calculations stand on very shaky ground.

Then there's other Bible texts themselves. For example, if you go with the traditional interpretation of genealogies and "begat"; then we have Methuselah surviving the flood.

I was always told that, traditionally, Methuselah died in the year of the flood. Just reading some of the proposed meanings of the name of Methuselah, it seems Enoch, that godly man, might have given his son a name portending the coming deluge. "When he is dead, it shall be sent" (intending the flood), or "When he dies, judgment".

According to creation.com; to go from 12 couples to an approximate 2.7 million people in just 215 would have been difficult to accomplish; particularly in the circumstances they faced. So the 430 years is probably more likely the Egyptian sojourn.

Here is the verse that clears that confusion up, for me at least. In the LXX, Exodus 12:40 reads this way: "And the sojourning of the children of Israel, while they sojourned in the land of Egypt AND the land of Chanaan, was four hundred and thirty years." In other words, the day God made the covenant with Abraham and he began his journey from Ur of the Chaldees to Canaan was the beginning of the 430 years of sojourning in foreign lands for Abram and his posterity. Even the persecution which Ishmael caused for young 5-year-old Isaac was included in the afflictions Israel as a whole experienced for 400 years until the Exodus brought them out of Egypt.

As for explaining the multiplication factor of people, I would say the unnumbered "mixed multitude" of "strangers" that came out along with the ethnic Israelite people formed a bigger share of those leaving Egypt than is commonly supposed.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

If the rest of the dead were raised at the end of the 1000 years; that could not have concluded in 33 AD; because those that were raised were only "many" not "all".

The word for "rest" in Greek is "Loipoi", meaning "a remnant". This "remnant" was a small fraction of the dead which were raised to life again in this "First resurrection". It amounted to "many", but not ALL of the dead. Those "many" Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints, raised the same day that Christ arose, composed what is known as this "First resurrection" event. They were all called "the First-fruits", because they along with Christ were collectively the first group of dead saints to be resurrected all at one time. And there were 144,000 of those former Jewish tribal members that came out of those Jewish graves around Jerusalem which were broken open by the earthquake.

Christ and the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints were the "First-fruits" and the "First resurrection". AFTERWARD, there would be the next resurrection event at Christ's coming, as 1 Corinthians 15:23 puts these resurrection events in order of their fulfillment.

Take a close look at Revelation 5. The "144,000" is only a completeness of the 12 tribes. Beginning of Revelation 7 they are "sealed".

Now look at verse 9:
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Now when it says they walked around "in the holy city" Revelation 21:2. Once the resurrection has happened; earthy Jerusalem is not "the holy (or "set apart") city" any longer; it has become Babylon the Mother of Harlots.

The 144,000 members of the twelve tribes were "sealed" (preserved for something in their future - meaning a rapture to heaven in the next resurrection event). These 144,000 Jewish tribal members were NOT the same group as the unnumbered multitude coming from all nations, peoples, and tongues.

I agree that first-century earthly Jerusalem was labeled "Babylon the Mother of Harlots". But John (and Matthew 27:52-53) could still refer to earthly Jerusalem as "the holy city" simply as an anachronistic title for what Jerusalem USED to be called. It would be like a man saying, "My wife is buried in such-and-such a cemetery" (although we know the dead woman entombed there is not now his living, active wife).

Those Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints walked about the earthly city of Jerusalem and were seen of many. This viewing of these resurrected saints was not done in heaven, but by human people on earth seeing these examples of what a glorified, resurrected body was like.

You also have verse 4; these are people martyred for the witness of Christ. They "live and reign with Christ 1000 years". Christ doesn't begin His reign until after the resurrection. (Ephesians 1:19-23)

Saints and prophets were martyred for the witness of Christ long before Jesus was born. Stephen before being martyred spoke of this saying, "Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One;..."

All these who bore testimony to the coming Christ and to the word of God had shared (during their natural lifetime) in "living and reigning with Christ" at some point during that thousand-year period starting in 967 978 BC until AD 33 when the thousand years ended at the First resurrection.

The second person of the Trinity has always reigned from creation forward - not just the new phase of His reign where He as Christ became the "Great High Priest" of the kingdom at His resurrection in AD 33. That thousand-year limitation was only put on SATAN and his deception - not a limit put on the Lord's reign, which has been "unto all generations" (Psalms 146:10).

Those who had not worshipped the Sea Beast from 607 BC forward were those like Daniel who did not eat Nebuchadnezzar's food, and his 3 friends who did not bow down to the image of the king. These were not necessarily presented as martyrs in Revelation 20:5, but they still shared in the same blessing of living during that thousand-year period when Satan's deception of the nations was bound.

Be back to check on a few more of your points, Righterzpen...got to pick up my autistic grandson from school...

 

[The Righterzpen]

The word for "rest" in Greek is "Loipoi", meaning "a remnant". This "remnant" was a small fraction of the dead which were raised to life again in this "First resurrection". It amounted to "many", but not ALL of the dead.

You're wrong here too. Take a look at all the places (4) that (3062) is translated "remnant"; it means "remainder of"; not "fraction".
Matthew 22:6, Revelation 11:13, Revelation 12:17, Revelation 19:21

In none of those passages does it mean a portion of. It means all the rest that are left.

Here is the verse that clears that confusion up, for me at least. In the LXX, Exodus 12:40 reads this way: "And the sojourning of the children of Israel, while they sojourned in the land of Egypt AND the land of Chanaan, was four hundred and thirty years." In other words, the day God made the covenant with Abraham and he began his journey from Ur of the Chaldees to Canaan was the beginning of the 430 years of sojourning in foreign lands for Abram and his posterity. Even the persecution which Ishmael caused for young 5-year-old Isaac was included in the afflictions Israel as a whole experienced for 400 years until the Exodus brought them out of Egypt.

The text doesn't say that though. Exodus 12:40 specifically says "the sojourn of the children of Israel who lived in Egypt".

Saints and prophets were martyred for the witness of Christ long before Jesus was born. Stephen before being martyred spoke of this saying, "Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One;..."

Again, Scripture doesn't say that.
According to your schema here; "1000 year reign" would have had to include all of time.
The end of Ephesians 1 is pretty clear. "all authority" was given to Christ at the resurrection.

I was always told that, traditionally, Methuselah died in the year of the flood. Just reading some of the proposed meanings of the name of Methuselah, it seems Enoch, that godly man, might have given his son a name portending the coming deluge. "When he is dead, it shall be sent" (intending the flood), or "When he dies, judgment".

Doesn't matter what you were told. Get out a piece of paper and do that math. According to Usher's chronology; Methuselah outlived the flood.

I read that Warren's inclusion of Cainan is proven wrong by the oldest Luke manuscript we have (the P75), dating from the second century. Cainan is not listed in that manuscript's genealogy in between Arphaxad and Salah his son, and it is certainly not found in the 1 Chronicles 1:24 repetition of this genealogy list, nor was it originally found in the Septuagint either. If Warren is basing his extended patriarchal genealogies on this Cainan's existence alone, his resulting age-of-the-world calculations stand on very shaky ground.

Just because it's not in P75 doesn't mean it wasn't in earlier ones. (We assume it was because it was in copies of the Septuagint that predate P75.) Besides; it's not quite clear what the reading of P75 is suppose to be.

Is “Cainan” in Luke 3:36 a “scribal error?”

IS “CAINAN” IN LUKE 3:36 A “SCRIBAL ERROR?” by Shawn Brasseaux Concerning Jesus’ genealogy through His mother Mary, we read in Luke 3:35-36: “[35] Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of …

forwhatsaiththescriptures.org

(Besides P75 leaves out other verses in Luke. Are those verses not suppose to be in the Bible either?)

Should Cainan be in the genealogy in Luke 3:36? - KJV Today

Most translations (NASB, ESV, NIV, NRSV) also have Cainan in Luke 3:36. The apparent problem is that Cainan does not appear in the genealogy in Genesis, Chronicles, or in other Jewish histories. Only some late manuscripts of the Septuagint have Cainan as the son of Arphaxad in Genesis 11. Thus...

www.kjvtoday.com

Those Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints walked about the earthly city of Jerusalem and were seen of many. This viewing of these resurrected saints was not done in heaven, but by human people on earth seeing these examples of what a glorified, resurrected body was like.

Now even if these resurrected people did walk around in earthy Jerusalem; nothing in this passage called them "glorified resurrected bodies".

When Jesus rose from the dead; he wasn't even in a "glorified body". Corrupted earth can not stand in the presence of God's glory. That was the point of hiding Moses in the cleft of the rock in Exodus. Moses specifically requested to see God's glory. God said: "No man can see my face and live." (Exodus 33:18-20)

 

[3 Resurrections]

When Jesus rose from the dead; he wasn't even in a "glorified body"

How do you figure that? Jesus's rising from the dead is equated with God giving Him glory at that same time. As in 1 Peter 1:21. 'Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God."

John 1:14 testified that the believers had SEEN Jesus's glory, the glory as of the only-begotten of the Father. That "begotten" word is our cue that we are reading about the resurrected Christ whom God had "begotten" on His resurrection day.

We are told that the Spirit would be given after Christ was first glorified in John 7:39. That Holy Spirit was first given on the resurrection day at that evening to the disciples when Christ breathed on them and said "Receive ye the Holy Spirit" (John 20:22). That means Christ was in His glorified state by then already. That flesh-and-bones body He offered for their inspection WAS His glorified body.

That body could take different "forms", as Christ did on the road to Emmaus. Even disappear from human sight at His own volition. A "glorified" body is a resurrected body that will never die again a second time. The Matthew 27:52-53 saints never died again either, because it is only appointed unto men ONCE to die - not twice - according to Hebrews 9:27-28.

 

[grafted branch]

God then bound Satan from deceiving the nations during the 4th millennium of fallen mankind's history, dated from the time of Solomon's temple foundation stone being laid down in 968/967 BC until AD 33. This literal thousand years of a physical temple worship system in Jerusalem brought the knowledge of Israel's God into the surrounding nations, and limited Satan's deception of those nations, aided greatly by the prophets' ministries of that period. Not all heeded this influence, but at least they could not claim that their evil actions came from being deceived in ignorance anymore.

I find your conversation here interesting and would like to get your thoughts on something.

It’s estimated that Jonah lived around 785-744 BC, which puts him in the 1,000 years according to your view.

Amil I have spoken to will say Nineveh being saved was a picture of what would happen after the cross when Satan is bound. They will say Nineveh was an exception, in order for a Gentile to become saved prior to the cross they would have to become an Israelite.

Do you think Nineveh was not an exception but a reality that any Gentile could be saved without becoming an Israelite during the 1,000 years prior to 33 AD?

 

[The Righterzpen]

As in 1 Peter 1:21. 'Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God."

1 Peter 1:21 doesn't mean that these things happened all at once.

John 1:14 defines it's own terms. "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld his glory; the glory AS OF the only begotten of the Father; full of grace and truth." Christ's incarnation was a reflection of the grace and truth of the Father. That was the "glory" Jesus conveyed to them in the message of redemption. We know that's the context because "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us" didn't "dwell among us" in glory. When the disciples said "Show us the Father" Jesus replied: "You know me; you know my Father."

Read John 7:39 really carefully. That passage is referring to Pentecost. Jesus said the Spirit would not be sent until he ascended back to heaven. Pentecost was 10 days after the ascension.

Compare this to John 16:7 ".... if I go not away.... " "go" and "away" is actually the same word. (which is usually translated "go"... "if I go not go"....) "the Comforter will not come". Why? Go back to John 7:39; he was not yet glorified. "...I go not go..." "I" meaning "all of me"; (not just my soul ascending to the Father to open the scrolls but ... the body had to go with (the rest of) me!) "All" of Jesus did not ascend at the point he died because his body remained on earth. So because the body never left earth; when he rose from the dead; his body was not glorified. It couldn't have been because (it) hadn't gone to heaven yet.

"Receive you the Holy Spirit" was a present tense command. He was actually commanding the Holy Ghost to indwell them; but that didn't happen until 10 days after the ascension. If they had "received" as had been commanded to the Spirit to descend; Pentecost would have happened right then and there. But that's not what happened. Why not? (Because he wasn't yet glorified.)

The Matthew 27:52-53 saints never died again either, because it is only appointed unto men ONCE to die - not twice - according to Hebrews 9:27-28.

Thus then according to your logic; the "holy city" they appeared in would have HAD TO BE the new Jerusalem.

All the people resurrected prior to Jesus's resurrection died again. Lazarus wasn't automatically transfigured at the point Christ rose from the dead. And yes, it would be correct to assume that Lazarus was still physically alive when Christ rose from the dead.