the Latin versus the Teutonic Brain

Warden_of_the_Storm

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2. People were living in Western and Central Europe... but they weren't even German in nationality since there wasn't yet a Germany (anachronism)... and they weren't the well known German body type either. I draw your attention to the book "Survie Du Langage Cro Magnon" by Claude Georges Henri Cougoulat, he researches the ancient names of Mountains and Rivers of Europe... they're not Germanic, either, BTW.

Yes, Germany is a modern state, that is fact, but it's also a fact that it is not wrong to describe the peoples that lived in the area of modern Germany as 'German' or 'Germanic', just like it's not wrong to describe the historical inhabitants of Britain as 'British' or 'Britons'. Yes, there is a nuance to it (Anglo-Saxons, Angles, Saxons, Vikings, Celts, Welsh, etc) in the details, but for ease of classification, it's not wrong to use those terms to describe them. Romans would still be Italian, because they come from Italy.

3. New authors quote the ancient historians, or they quote other authors who quote the ancient authors, otherwise they have to mark their books "fiction". Genetics say "these people" lived "here" and this is their DNA... on what do they base their science? How did they know who lived where if the ancients are to be completely disregarded. Archaeologists do the same thing: they go to where ancient history says "these people" lived, and find what they left behind. Without Ancient History none of that would be even remotely possible.

Again, that's not wrong. But just using ancient authors is an appeal to authority on your part. Just because we use them as starting points does not mean that they are wrong. It was a belief held by ancient writers that iron would replenish itself if left untouched, and that's certainly not true. The ancients believed that Atlantis was a real place, but there's not a shred of evidence for it. Just because the ancients said it, does not make it 100% true.

As for "actual historical events"... we are shown when the Barbarians came into Europe, and it's their fault that the Roman Empire fell.
Your arguments seem to be trying to say something entirely different.

And we are shown, in your own posts too, that many of the Barbarians also came from WITHIN Europe too. Your own post on this page, post #65, mentions the Franks, Goths and the Alemanni; groups of people, Barbarians, that came FROM EUROPE.

I have no idea what you're even trying to suggest so I'm just going to chalk it down to you wanting to put words in my mouth because you can't show a damned thing to support your claim that there is such a thing as 'Teutonic race' and a 'Latin race'. Not even going to touch the last bit since that's just delusional rantings about history if I've ever seen it. Yes, people move about, and yes, invasions happen. History 101 right there.

Or should we go back to the Medieval way of thinking that everyone from every country was a racial group?
 
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Ophiolite

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Sounds like an ego problem
I agree, but if you work at it I am sure you can overcome it. Just take the time to quote all the portions of another's post that are relevant to your reply. :)

In the meantime when do you intend to present actual evidence to support your contention of two races. Real, current, scientific, genetic evidence.
 
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Ligurian

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2. People were living in Western and Central Europe... but they weren't even German in nationality since there wasn't yet a Germany (anachronism)... and they weren't the well known German body type either. I draw your attention to the book "Survie Du Langage Cro Magnon" by Claude Georges Henri Cougoulat... he researches the ancient names of Mountains and Rivers of Europe... they're not Germanic, either, BTW.

3. New authors quote the ancient historians, or they quote other authors who quote the ancient authors, otherwise they have to mark their books "fiction". Genetics say "these people" lived "here" and this is their DNA... on what do they base their science? How did they know who lived where if the ancients are to be completely disregarded. Archaeologists do the same thing: they go to where ancient history says "these people" lived, and find what they left behind. Without Ancient History none of that would be even remotely possible.

As for "actual historical events"... we are shown when the Barbarians came into Europe, and it's their fault that the Roman Empire fell.
Your arguments seem to be trying to say something entirely different.

The modern people living in Illyria are pretending to be the original Illyrians. The Bulgarians are pretending that we never caught their advent with the arrivals from the East. The Turks have written their names all over Anatolia.
What's up with these people?
They take the lives and the land... and then get the history of the indigenous people of the land as a bonus?
More and more, what passes itself off as History becomes Identity Theft... the indigenous are being wished away by the conquestors.

Yes, Germany is a modern state, that is fact, but it's also a fact that it is not wrong to describe the peoples that lived in the area of modern Germany as 'German' or 'Germanic', just like it's not wrong to describe the historical inhabitants of Britain as 'British' or 'Britons'. Yes, there is a nuance to it (Anglo-Saxons, Angles, Saxons, Vikings, Celts, Welsh, etc) in the details, but for ease of classification, it's not wrong to use those terms to describe them. Romans would still be Italian, because they come from Italy.



Again, that's not wrong. But just using ancient authors is an appeal to authority on your part. Just because we use them as starting points does not mean that they are wrong. It was a belief held by ancient writers that iron would replenish itself if left untouched, and that's certainly not true. The ancients believed that Atlantis was a real place, but there's not a shred of evidence for it. Just because the ancients said it, does not make it 100% true.



And we are shown, in your own posts too, that many of the Barbarians also came from WITHIN Europe too. Your own post on this page, post #65, mentions the Franks, Goths and the Alemanni; groups of people, Barbarians, that came FROM EUROPE.

I have no idea what you're even trying to suggest so I'm just going to chalk it down to you wanting to put words in my mouth because you can't show a damned thing [...]

HOWEVER, in your previous posts, you seemed very much to be pretending that there were Germans living in Northern Europe for thousands of years... which would be an anachronism, as well as anthropologically incorrect. Even the Bible calls both Amorites and Hittites the "Canaanites"... which, as Sayce points out, is a geographical term not a racial designation (in Gen.10).

"I affirm that at their origin the Germans were not a distinct people from the Celts or from the Slavs, with both of whom they were always united and often confused."--Sergi, The Mediterranean Race, p.18

"The Celts and the Germans never reached Libya, as some believe; if they had, they would have modified the funeral customs by introducing cremation, as they did in Europe in the neolithic age."--Sergi, The Mediterranean Race, p.72
 
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Ligurian

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First off, if you're going to quote me, quote me in full, don't just do parts and snippets.

Sounds like an ego problem.

quote all the portions of another's post that are relevant to your reply. :)

In the meantime when do you intend to present actual evidence to support your contention of two races. Real, current, scientific, genetic evidence.

Which is precisely what I do. I even provide References* for my conclusions...

"Current evidence" doesn't mean better evidence, or even truly scientific, in many cases:
People who wish to be Published must follow the Dogmas of their chosen Profession.
Many times, Conclusions that don't match the Mainstream, never get Translated.

Science never starts with a Tabula Rosa but with the Theory they wish to Prove, and then builds up the Evidence to support their Chosen Theory. With the advent of the Internet, almost anything at all can be "Proven" to some Portion of Humanity. However, the Truth requires more than just one Avenue of Research: i.e., Archaeology apart from Ancient History can prove nothing.

_______________________
* For Example:
The Mediterranean race: : Sergi, Giuseppe, 1841-1936
 
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Hans Blaster

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Science never starts with a Tabula Rosa but with the Theory they wish to Prove, and then builds up the Evidence to support their Chosen Theory. With the advent of the Internet, almost anything at all can be "Proven" to some Portion of Humanity. However, the Truth requires more than just one Avenue of Research: i.e., Archaeology apart from Ancient History can prove nothing.

Oh good grief. Learn something about how science works.

Science doesn't "prove" things. Science doesn't deal with "tabla rasa". Science works with hypotheses and builds tests of those hypotheses. It never "builds up evidence" to support a "Chosen Theory". That's literally the opposite of how science works. (Theories are explanitory frameworks for data.)
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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HOWEVER, in your previous posts, you seemed very much to be pretending that there were Germans living in Northern Europe for thousands of years... which would be an anachronism, as well as anthropologically incorrect. Even the Bible calls both Amorites and Hittites the "Canaanites"... which, as Sayce points out, is a geographical term not a racial designation (in Gen.10).

"I affirm that at their origin the Germans were not a distinct people from the Celts or from the Slavs, with both of whom they were always united and often confused."--Sergi, The Mediterranean Race, p.18

"The Celts and the Germans never reached Libya, as some believe; if they had, they would have modified the funeral customs by introducing cremation, as they did in Europe in the neolithic age."--Sergi, The Mediterranean Race, p.72

And yet that there have been Germanic people's living in Northern Europe for thousands of years. You've consistently mentioned them every time you bring up the barbarians. People have existed in Northern Europe, especially the area that we call Germany, for millennia.

And again: you quoting historical authors who clearly have a bias and lack of modern knowledge is not you being smart.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Even if what I saw is completely wrong, @Ligurian has still not shown a single shred of evidence to show that there is a GENETIC difference between Teutons and Latins, to use their terminology, to show that they are different racial groups.

Physical differences do not constitute different races in European populations.
 
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Ligurian

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Oh good grief. Learn something about how science works.

Science doesn't "prove" things. Science doesn't deal with "tabla rasa". Science works with hypotheses and builds tests of those hypotheses. It never "builds up evidence" to support a "Chosen Theory". That's literally the opposite of how science works. (Theories are explanitory frameworks for data.)
Cambridge Dictionary:

hypothesis noun [ C ] us / hɑɪˈpɑθ·ə·sɪs / plural hypotheses us / hɑɪˈpɑθ·əˌsiz / science an idea or explanation for something that is based on known facts but has not yet been proven: Several hypotheses for global warming have been suggested.

theory noun [ C/U ] us / ˈθɪər·i, ˈθi·ə·ri / something suggested as a reasonable explanation for facts, a condition, or an event, esp. a systematic or scientific explanation: [ U ] Adele took a course in modern political theory. [ C ] I have a theory (= an opinion) about why everybody in the city is in such a hurry.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Cambridge Dictionary:

hypothesis noun [ C ] us / hɑɪˈpɑθ·ə·sɪs / plural hypotheses us / hɑɪˈpɑθ·əˌsiz / science an idea or explanation for something that is based on known facts but has not yet been proven: Several hypotheses for global warming have been suggested.

theory noun [ C/U ] us / ˈθɪər·i, ˈθi·ə·ri / something suggested as a reasonable explanation for facts, a condition, or an event, esp. a systematic or scientific explanation: [ U ] Adele took a course in modern political theory. [ C ] I have a theory (= an opinion) about why everybody in the city is in such a hurry.

How many decades have you been doing science?
 
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Ligurian

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HOWEVER, in your previous posts, you seemed very much to be pretending that there were Germans living in Northern Europe for thousands of years... which would be an anachronism, as well as anthropologically incorrect. Even the Bible calls both Amorites and Hittites the "Canaanites"... which, as Sayce points out, is a geographical term not a racial designation (in Gen.10).

"I affirm that at their origin the Germans were not a distinct people from the Celts or from the Slavs, with both of whom they were always united and often confused."--Sergi, The Mediterranean Race, p.18

"The Celts and the Germans never reached Libya, as some believe; if they had, they would have modified the funeral customs by introducing cremation, as they did in Europe in the neolithic age."--Sergi, The Mediterranean Race, p.72

"Current evidence" doesn't mean better evidence, or even truly scientific, in many cases:
People who wish to be Published must follow the Dogmas of their chosen Profession.
Many times, Conclusions that don't match the Mainstream, never get Translated.

And yet that there have been Germanic people's living in Northern Europe for thousands of years. You've consistently mentioned them every time you bring up the barbarians. People have existed in Northern Europe, especially the area that we call Germany, for millennia.

And again: you quoting historical authors who clearly have a bias and lack of modern knowledge is not you being smart.

The Nation called Germany did not exist before the Germans came... So that, calling any part of Central Europe by the name "Germany" prior to their invasion is an anachronism.*

"It seems to me that the existence of a pure Germanic stock cannot be demonstrated, whether in prehistoric or in protohistoric times. We do not find in Germany a pure dolichocephalic race, tall, fair, numerous, diffused widely throughout Europe; we find instead a mixed population of varying type in all the prehistoric graves of German territory.

Von Holder, the author of a work on Wurtemberg skulls which is of fundamental importance in the study of Teutonic anthropology, has found a series of the most diverse types, Germanic, Turanian, Sarmatian, pure and mixed, in his opinion, with no predominant Germanic type. Lissauer finds a mixture of forms among ancient Prussian skulls, while Virchow, who has examined a vast number of skulls from old Germanic graves, finds the most varying shapes among the primitive population of Germanic soil."
--Sergi, The Mediterranean Race, p.17

Which has been adequately proven by DNA:

"Haplogroup R1b is common in Europe, particularly in Western Europe...
Haplogroup I ... is found at highest frequencies in the Nordic countries as I1 (Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland) and in the Balkan Peninsula as I2a ... while I2a is frequent also in Sardinia ...
Apart from the outlying Saami, all Europeans are characterised by the predominance of haplogroups H, U and T. The lack of observable geographic structuring of mtDNA may be due to socio-cultural factors..."
Genetic history of Europe - Wikipedia

The Picts are matriarchal and so are the Mediterranean Iberians, Ligurians, Pelasgians, & Libyans.

"Even the social and kinship terms which indicate at least that the Proto-Indo-Europeans were patrilineal and 'patriarchal' (and possessed some form of warrior sodality) do not seem to fit the agricultural societies we find in the early Neolithic cultures of Greece and the Balkans."--Mallory, In Search Of The Indo Europeans, p.179

... and in Liguria, too:

"1. IN the second place, we shall treat of that portion of Liguria situated in the Apennines, between the Keltica already
described and Tyrrhenia. There is nothing worth mentioning about it, except that the people dwell in villages, ploughing
and digging the intractable land
, or rather, as Posidonius expresses it, hewing the rocks."
"Ligues" (Ligures), the earlier (Greek) name of the Sallyes, v2. 269"--Strabo

"Pliny reported that "Timaeus says there is an island named Mictis ... where tin is found, and to which the Britons cross."[12] Diodorus said that tin was brought to the island of Ictis, where there was an emporium. The last link was supplied by Strabo, who said that an emporium on the island of Corbulo in the mouth of the river Loire was associated with the Britain of Pytheas by Polybius.[13]"--wikipedia, Pytheas

Corbulo or Corbilo... same place:

"Saint-Nazaire, town and seaport, Loire-Atlantique département, Pays de la Loire région, western France. It lies on the right bank of the Loire River estuary, 38 miles (61 km) west-northwest of Nantes.
Saint-Nazaire is thought to be the site of the ancient Gallo-Roman seaport of Corbilo."
Saint-Nazaire | History, Geography, & Points of Interest

"The Dissignac tumulus is a megalithic monument located in the French commune of Saint-Nazaire, in the Loire-Atlantique department. As much the architecture of the monument as the engravings or the archaeological material found make it possible to date this monument from 4700-4500 years before our era, which makes it the oldest of the megalithic buildings of Loire-Atlantique [1]. For comparison, it is 2,000 years older than the oldest pyramid in Egypt."
Tumulus de Dissignac — Wikipédia

"Avienus makes only one direct reference to the Celts when he mentions that beyond the tin-producing Oestrymnides was a land now occupied by the Celts, who took it from the Ligurians."--Cunliffe, The Ancient Celts.

"Solinus ... states that 'a stormy channel separates the coast which the Damnonii occupy from the island Silura, whose inhabitants preserve the ancient manners, reject money, barter merchandise, value what they require by exchange rather than by price, worship the gods, and both men and women profess a knowledge of the future'."--Skene, Celtic Scotland,v1

As for the Greece and the Balkans, the Pelasgians are the ancient possessors. Their priests lived at the Oaks of Dodona in Epirus. From there, the Pelasgians moved into Italy where they stood with the Ligurian Aborigines* against the invading Umbrians.
_________________________
* anachronism noun [ C ] us / əˈnæk·rəˌnɪz·əm / someone or something placed in the wrong period in history, or something that belongs to the past rather than the present: For a historical drama, the movie was filled with anachronisms.

* "Apparently both the Greek settlers and their allies the Aborigines were glad of the coming of the Tyrsenians, for they were in sore need of assistance against the ever-increasing encroachments of the Umbrian tribes. ... Besides the Etruscans and Gauls, we hear in the historical period of another people, who not only maintained themselves in the mountainous region of which Genoa may be regarded as the centre, but in all North-Western Italy and in South Western France. These are the people known to the Roman writers as Ligures, and to the Greeks as Ligyes. As they occupy the same mountainous area as that assigned to the Aborigines by Dionysius, and as Philistus of Syracuse says that the Ligyes were expelled from their homes by the Umbrians, there is no doubt that the Aborigines of Dionysius and Cato are none other than the Ligyes or Ligurians of Philistus and other writers. ... Thus according to Roman tradition the Latini were the Aborigines, or, in other words, Ligurians, a tradition of great significance in view of the fact that the populus Romanus spoke not lingua Romana, but lingua Latina."--Ridgeway, Who Were the Romans?

"But the general idea we get from the various confused passages is that the Iberi are for Roman and Greek writers the earliest inhabitants of the Spanish peninsula, as the Ligures are of the Italian."--Peet, The Stone and Bronze Ages in Italy and Sicily, p.167

"The district round the Phocaean colony of Marseilles was inhabited by Ligurian tribes, who held the region between the river Po and the Gulf of Genoa, as far as the western boundary of Etruria, and who probably extended to the west along the coast of Southern Gaul as far as the Pyrenees. They were distinguished from the Celtae, not merely by their manners and customs, but by their small stature and dark hair and eyes, and are stated by Pliny and Strabo to have inhabited Spain. They have also left marks of their presence in Central Gaul in the name of the Loire (Ligur), and possibly in Britain in the obscure name of the Lloegrians."--Dawkins, Cave Hunting

"Lucan in his Pharsalia (c. 61 AD) described Ligurian tribes as being long-haired, and their hair a shade of auburn (a reddish-brown):
Ligurian tribes, now shorn, in ancient days
First of the long-haired nations, on whose necks
Once flowed the auburn locks in pride supreme."
Ligures - Wikipedia

"Pliny and Lucan wrote that druids did not meet in stone temples or other constructions, but in sacred groves of trees. In his Pharsalia Lucan described such a grove near Massilia in dramatic terms more designed to evoke horror among his Roman hearers than meant as proper natural history:
No bird nested in the nemeton, nor did any animal lurk nearby;
the leaves constantly shivered though no breeze stirred.
Altars stood in its midst, and the images of the gods.
Every tree was stained with sacrificial blood.
the very earth groaned, dead yews revived;
unconsumed trees were surrounded with flame,
and huge serpents twined round the oaks.
The people feared to approach the grove,
and even the priest would not walk there at midday
or midnight lest he should then meet its divine guardian."
Nemeton - Wikipedia

"The types of Cro-Magnon, L'Homme-Mort, and other French and Belgian localities, bear witness to the presence of an African stock in the same region in which we find the dolmens and other megalithic monuments erroneously attributed to the Celts."--Sergi, The Mediterranean Race, p.70

"The monuments we call Druidical, must be appropriated, exclusively, to the Aborigines of the midland, and western divisions. They are found in such corners, and fastnesses, as have, in all ages, and countries, been the last retreat of the conquered, and the last that are occupied by the victorious."--Davies, Celtic Researches

Hope this helps someone.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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The Nation called Germany did not exist before the Germans came... So that, calling any part of Central Europe by the name "Germany" prior to their invasion is an anachronism.*

"It seems to me that the existence of a pure Germanic stock cannot be demonstrated, whether in prehistoric or in protohistoric times. We do not find in Germany a pure dolichocephalic race, tall, fair, numerous, diffused widely throughout Europe; we find instead a mixed population of varying type in all the prehistoric graves of German territory.

Von Holder, the author of a work on Wurtemberg skulls which is of fundamental importance in the study of Teutonic anthropology, has found a series of the most diverse types, Germanic, Turanian, Sarmatian, pure and mixed, in his opinion, with no predominant Germanic type. Lissauer finds a mixture of forms among ancient Prussian skulls, while Virchow, who has examined a vast number of skulls from old Germanic graves, finds the most varying shapes among the primitive population of Germanic soil."
--Sergi, The Mediterranean Race, p.17

Which has been adequately proven by DNA:

"Haplogroup R1b is common in Europe, particularly in Western Europe...
Haplogroup I ... is found at highest frequencies in the Nordic countries as I1 (Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland) and in the Balkan Peninsula as I2a ... while I2a is frequent also in Sardinia ...
Apart from the outlying Saami, all Europeans are characterised by the predominance of haplogroups H, U and T. The lack of observable geographic structuring of mtDNA may be due to socio-cultural factors..."
Genetic history of Europe - Wikipedia

The Picts are matriarchal and so are the Mediterranean Iberians, Ligurians, Pelasgians, & Libyans.

"Even the social and kinship terms which indicate at least that the Proto-Indo-Europeans were patrilineal and 'patriarchal' (and possessed some form of warrior sodality) do not seem to fit the agricultural societies we find in the early Neolithic cultures of Greece and the Balkans."--Mallory, In Search Of The Indo Europeans, p.179

... and in Liguria, too:

"1. IN the second place, we shall treat of that portion of Liguria situated in the Apennines, between the Keltica already
described and Tyrrhenia. There is nothing worth mentioning about it, except that the people dwell in villages, ploughing
and digging the intractable land
, or rather, as Posidonius expresses it, hewing the rocks."
"Ligues" (Ligures), the earlier (Greek) name of the Sallyes, v2. 269"--Strabo

"Pliny reported that "Timaeus says there is an island named Mictis ... where tin is found, and to which the Britons cross."[12] Diodorus said that tin was brought to the island of Ictis, where there was an emporium. The last link was supplied by Strabo, who said that an emporium on the island of Corbulo in the mouth of the river Loire was associated with the Britain of Pytheas by Polybius.[13]"--wikipedia, Pytheas

Corbulo or Corbilo... same place:

"Saint-Nazaire, town and seaport, Loire-Atlantique département, Pays de la Loire région, western France. It lies on the right bank of the Loire River estuary, 38 miles (61 km) west-northwest of Nantes.
Saint-Nazaire is thought to be the site of the ancient Gallo-Roman seaport of Corbilo."
Saint-Nazaire | History, Geography, & Points of Interest

"The Dissignac tumulus is a megalithic monument located in the French commune of Saint-Nazaire, in the Loire-Atlantique department. As much the architecture of the monument as the engravings or the archaeological material found make it possible to date this monument from 4700-4500 years before our era, which makes it the oldest of the megalithic buildings of Loire-Atlantique [1]. For comparison, it is 2,000 years older than the oldest pyramid in Egypt."
Tumulus de Dissignac — Wikipédia

"Avienus makes only one direct reference to the Celts when he mentions that beyond the tin-producing Oestrymnides was a land now occupied by the Celts, who took it from the Ligurians."--Cunliffe, The Ancient Celts.

"Solinus ... states that 'a stormy channel separates the coast which the Damnonii occupy from the island Silura, whose inhabitants preserve the ancient manners, reject money, barter merchandise, value what they require by exchange rather than by price, worship the gods, and both men and women profess a knowledge of the future'."--Skene, Celtic Scotland,v1

As for the Greece and the Balkans, the Pelasgians are the ancient possessors. Their priests lived at the Oaks of Dodona in Epirus. From there, the Pelasgians moved into Italy where they stood with the Ligurian Aborigines* against the invading Umbrians.
_________________________
* anachronism noun [ C ] us / əˈnæk·rəˌnɪz·əm / someone or something placed in the wrong period in history, or something that belongs to the past rather than the present: For a historical drama, the movie was filled with anachronisms.

* "Apparently both the Greek settlers and their allies the Aborigines were glad of the coming of the Tyrsenians, for they were in sore need of assistance against the ever-increasing encroachments of the Umbrian tribes. ... Besides the Etruscans and Gauls, we hear in the historical period of another people, who not only maintained themselves in the mountainous region of which Genoa may be regarded as the centre, but in all North-Western Italy and in South Western France. These are the people known to the Roman writers as Ligures, and to the Greeks as Ligyes. As they occupy the same mountainous area as that assigned to the Aborigines by Dionysius, and as Philistus of Syracuse says that the Ligyes were expelled from their homes by the Umbrians, there is no doubt that the Aborigines of Dionysius and Cato are none other than the Ligyes or Ligurians of Philistus and other writers. ... Thus according to Roman tradition the Latini were the Aborigines, or, in other words, Ligurians, a tradition of great significance in view of the fact that the populus Romanus spoke not lingua Romana, but lingua Latina."--Ridgeway, Who Were the Romans?

"But the general idea we get from the various confused passages is that the Iberi are for Roman and Greek writers the earliest inhabitants of the Spanish peninsula, as the Ligures are of the Italian."--Peet, The Stone and Bronze Ages in Italy and Sicily, p.167

"The district round the Phocaean colony of Marseilles was inhabited by Ligurian tribes, who held the region between the river Po and the Gulf of Genoa, as far as the western boundary of Etruria, and who probably extended to the west along the coast of Southern Gaul as far as the Pyrenees. They were distinguished from the Celtae, not merely by their manners and customs, but by their small stature and dark hair and eyes, and are stated by Pliny and Strabo to have inhabited Spain. They have also left marks of their presence in Central Gaul in the name of the Loire (Ligur), and possibly in Britain in the obscure name of the Lloegrians."--Dawkins, Cave Hunting

"Lucan in his Pharsalia (c. 61 AD) described Ligurian tribes as being long-haired, and their hair a shade of auburn (a reddish-brown):
Ligurian tribes, now shorn, in ancient days
First of the long-haired nations, on whose necks
Once flowed the auburn locks in pride supreme."
Ligures - Wikipedia

"Pliny and Lucan wrote that druids did not meet in stone temples or other constructions, but in sacred groves of trees. In his Pharsalia Lucan described such a grove near Massilia in dramatic terms more designed to evoke horror among his Roman hearers than meant as proper natural history:
No bird nested in the nemeton, nor did any animal lurk nearby;
the leaves constantly shivered though no breeze stirred.
Altars stood in its midst, and the images of the gods.
Every tree was stained with sacrificial blood.
the very earth groaned, dead yews revived;
unconsumed trees were surrounded with flame,
and huge serpents twined round the oaks.
The people feared to approach the grove,
and even the priest would not walk there at midday
or midnight lest he should then meet its divine guardian."
Nemeton - Wikipedia

"The types of Cro-Magnon, L'Homme-Mort, and other French and Belgian localities, bear witness to the presence of an African stock in the same region in which we find the dolmens and other megalithic monuments erroneously attributed to the Celts."--Sergi, The Mediterranean Race, p.70

"The monuments we call Druidical, must be appropriated, exclusively, to the Aborigines of the midland, and western divisions. They are found in such corners, and fastnesses, as have, in all ages, and countries, been the last retreat of the conquered, and the last that are occupied by the victorious."--Davies, Celtic Researches

Hope this helps someone.

Wow. This was the single biggest Gish gallop I've ever seen.

You made every attempt to pretend that you know the answer but you gave NOTHING to prove me wrong. Like... at all.

All this helps show is that you really overestimate your own abilities here. And that's me being nice.
 
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Hans Blaster

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The Nation called Germany did not exist before the Germans came... So that, calling any part of Central Europe by the name "Germany" prior to their invasion is an anachronism.*

"It seems to me that the existence of a pure Germanic stock cannot be demonstrated, whether in prehistoric or in protohistoric times. We do not find in Germany a pure dolichocephalic race, tall, fair, numerous, diffused widely throughout Europe; we find instead a mixed population of varying type in all the prehistoric graves of German territory.

Von Holder, the author of a work on Wurtemberg skulls which is of fundamental importance in the study of Teutonic anthropology, has found a series of the most diverse types, Germanic, Turanian, Sarmatian, pure and mixed, in his opinion, with no predominant Germanic type. Lissauer finds a mixture of forms among ancient Prussian skulls, while Virchow, who has examined a vast number of skulls from old Germanic graves, finds the most varying shapes among the primitive population of Germanic soil."
--Sergi, The Mediterranean Race, p.17

Old, discarded "race" theories. Got it.
Hope this helps someone.

We now clearly understand your meaning and intent. I don't think anyone has any interest in your "ideas".
 
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PsaltiChrysostom

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I think the fact that he explicitly stated that there's a 'Teutonic race' and a 'Latin race' maybe should have tipped us off....
Well, at least he hasn't started calling them the Master race and Untermensch
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Well, at least he hasn't started calling them the Master race and Untermensch

No, but he's got some VERY weird views about European populations in general.
 
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Hans Blaster

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I think the fact that he explicitly stated that there's a 'Teutonic race' and a 'Latin race' maybe should have tipped us off....

I've been on alert the whole time. The whole thread has been filled with non-linear arguments, obscure references, dodging, etc., that pinning down the purpose has been tricky. I've seen a lot of "racially questionable" things on this site. Most is fleeting, obscure, and off topic, so there is always the possibility that you have misread someone's intent. Others are blatant, gross, and obvious and noticed by all (incl. mods.). Some take time to tease out and I think we now have. This last reference to Sergi and his "Mediterranean Race" notion (and superiority) [given in contrast at the time to the claims of "Nordic superiority"] is the last straw. Not only do we have another citation of 19th/20th century race theory and the racial view of European populations, but the thread title and nom de net of the poster make it clear that it is all in support of Sergi's position. I don't think any other conclusion can be made. I suspect I will soon be muting this thread and OPer.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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I've been on alert the whole time. The whole thread has been filled with non-linear arguments, obscure references, dodging, etc., that pinning down the purpose has been tricky. I've seen a lot of "racially questionable" things on this site. Most is fleeting, obscure, and off topic, so there is always the possibility that you have misread someone's intent. Others are blatant, gross, and obvious and noticed by all (incl. mods.). Some take time to tease out and I think we now have. This last reference to Sergi and his "Mediterranean Race" notion (and superiority) [given in contrast at the time to the claims of "Nordic superiority"] is the last straw. Not only do we have another citation of 19th/20th century race theory and the racial view of European populations, but the thread title and nom de net of the poster make it clear that it is all in support of Sergi's position. I don't think any other conclusion can be made. I suspect I will soon be muting this thread and OPer.

To be honest, I'm sticking around to see what the conclusion is, if there is one.
 
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Ligurian

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Wow. This was the single biggest Gish gallop I've ever seen.

[...] And that's me being nice.

"The Gish gallop /ˈɡɪʃ ˈɡæləp/ is a rhetorical technique in which a person in a debate attempts to overwhelm their opponent by providing an excessive number of arguments with no regard for the accuracy or strength of those arguments. Gish galloping prioritizes the quantity of the galloper's arguments at the expense of quality of said arguments. The term was coined in 1994 by anthropologist Eugenie Scott, who named it after American creationist Duane Gish and argued that Gish used the technique frequently when challenging the scientific fact of evolution."--https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop

"Scott received BS and MS degrees from the University of Wisconsin–Milwaukee, followed by a PhD from the University of Missouri. She joined the University of Kentucky as a physical anthropologist in 1974, and shortly thereafter attended a debate between her mentor James A. Gavan and the young Earth creationist Duane Gish, which piqued her interest in the creation–evolution controversy."--https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenie_Scott

""Scott describes herself as atheist but does not discount the importance of spirituality," said a San Francisco Chronicle news story. (Feb. 7, 2003) "Science is a limited way of knowing, looking at just the natural world and natural causes. There are a lot of ways human beings understand the universe — through literature, theology, aesthetics, art or music."
Eugenie Scott - Freedom From Religion Foundation

Research is useful.
 
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