The Last Saints

[grafted branch]

The Bible uses the word “Saint” to refer to “saved” people.

In Deuteronomy 33:1-3 Moses blessed the children of Israel and referred to them as saints. And in Deuteronomy 14:2 the description of the nation of Israel is basically the definition of the word saints.

While I would agree that in nearly all places the word saints is referring to believers, I would say it’s not always the case, sometimes it refers to the nation of Israel which contains some unbelievers.

There is also Daniel 7:27 where we have the statement “shall be given to the people of the saints of the most high”. Here it can be interpreted as people that come from the saints from the most high. In Matthew 21:43 the kingdom is taken away from chief priest and Pharisees (saints by the Deuteronomy definition) and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

 

[5thKingdom]

In Matthew 21:43 the kingdom is taken away from chief priest and Pharisees (saints by the Deuteronomy definition) and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Matthew 21:43 is an interesting verse because it summaries what is shown in Matthew 22
where the "Kingdom of God" is "taken away" from the (2nd) Jewish "Kingdom"
and it's "given" to the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom" which consisted
of those following the Lord Jesus Christ.


While the phrase "Kingdom of God" is used 70 times in the Bible
it always represents the Saints in the Eternal Kingdom
OR the phrase is used to indicate the Holy Spirit.


In this case, In Mat 21:43
The Lord is teaching the Holy Spirit will be "taken" from the Jewish Kingdom
and it will be "given" to the Christian Kingdom following Christ.


This transition of the "Kingdom of Heaven" going from Old Testament Saints
to New Testament Saints - is clearly shown in the verses of Matthew 22


Notice: Jesus specifically called the Jewish nation the "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 22:2]
because that was God's Kingdom until the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 13, in 7 verses]
replaced those Jews who God had forsaken - and replaced them with the Christians following the Lord.



The beginning verses
establish the Jews were the "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 22:2] at that time:



Mat 22:1-7
And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
The Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner:
my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. But they made light of it,
and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them
spitefully, and slew them. But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers,
and burned up their city.


Having established [v1-7] the Jewish Kingdom would be destroyed,
the following verses establish the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 13 - in 7 verses]
consisting of those who follow the Lord Jesus Christ.


Mat 22:8-14
Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. So those servants went out
into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.


Oops... the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" consisted of saved "wheat/sheep" IN THE CHURCH (sown by God)
and unsaved "tares/goats" IN THE CHURCH (sown by Satan). These "wheat and tares" LOOK alike (but they are not)
and their Gospels often SOUND alike (but they are not). These unsaved "tares" bring "leaven" which corrupts the Gospel.
Just read Revelation chapters 2 and 3 to see the extent of corruption before the end of the first century.
The "wheat and tares" grow together during the Church Age, they are separated in the Final Harvest.


The prophecy continues... talking about that Final Harvest:


And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness;
there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called [by the Gospel], but few are chosen [elected to be saved].


To come full circle:
Matthew 21:43 is talking about the events of Matthew 22:1-14
as the Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" became the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"

There is also Daniel 7:27 where we have the statement “shall be given to the people of the saints of the most high”. Here it can be interpreted as people that come from the saints from the most high.

Daniel 7:27 must be understood in harmony with the following:


Dan 7:21-22
I beheld, and the same [Little] Horn made war with the [Last] Saints, and prevailed against them;
Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment [understanding] was given to the [Last] Saints of the most High;
and the time came that [all] the Saints possessed the [eternal] Kingdom.


Dan 7:24-26
And the Ten Horns out of this [fourth] Kingdom are Ten Kings that shall arise:
and another [Little Horn] shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
And he [the Little Horn] shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High,
and think to change times and laws: and they [the Last Saints] shall be given into his hand [shall be ruled by him]
until a time and times and the dividing of time. [3.5 "times" is the length of the Fourth / Revelation "Beast"]
But the judgment shall sit, and they [the Last Saints] shall take away his [the Little Horn's] dominion,
[they rule the Kingdom] to consume and to destroy it [the fourth Kingdom/Beast] unto the end.



Jim

 

[grafted branch]

Daniel 7:27 must be understood in harmony with the following:


Dan 7:21-22
I beheld, and the same [Little] Horn made war with the [Last] Saints, and prevailed against them;
Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment [understanding] was given to the [Last] Saints of the most High;
and the time came that [all] the Saints possessed the [eternal] Kingdom.


Dan 7:24-26
And the Ten Horns out of this [fourth] Kingdom are Ten Kings that shall arise:
and another [Little Horn] shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
And he [the Little Horn] shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High,
and think to change times and laws: and they [the Last Saints] shall be given into his hand [shall be ruled by him]
until a time and times and the dividing of time. [3.5 "times" is the length of the Fourth / Revelation "Beast"]
But the judgment shall sit, and they [the Last Saints] shall take away his [the Little Horn's] dominion,
[they rule the Kingdom] to consume and to destroy it [the fourth Kingdom/Beast] unto the end.

Ok, thanks for your explanation. In Daniel 7:22 it says “the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom” I’ve been interpreting this as the Jews possessing the kingdom here. In Daniel 7:27 the kingdom is given, which I have been associating with the kingdom being given in Matthew 21:43.

In Daniel 7:25 they(saints) are given into his hand (little horn). Do you see this as saints being overcome in Revelation 13:7? The reason I ask is that in Revelation chapters 2-3 every church is told to overcome. Some people say the beast overcomes the saints while the saints overcome the beast at the same time. This doesn’t make sense to me.

I can understand the Old Testament saints being overcome because they are told multiple times what will happen to them if they don’t follow the law. The New Testament saints are promised that the gates of hell will not prevail and that Jesus will never leave or forsake them. It doesn’t seem like the New Testament saints are given to the beast or little horn.

 

[5thKingdom]

Ok, thanks for your explanation. In Daniel 7:22 it says “the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom”
I’ve been interpreting this as the Jews possessing the kingdom here. In Daniel 7:27 the kingdom is given,

In Matthew 21:43 we see the transfer between the (2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 22:2]
and the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 13, in 7 verses]


In Daniel 7 we are talking about the FOURTH "Kingdom/Beast" on earth
The Fourth Beast is also shown as (1) the Revelation Beast and (2) the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]
and (3) the RULE of the Anti-Christ during (4) Satan's "Little Season" AFTER being "loosened" from the Bottomless Pit.

There are four (4) Kingdoms/Beasts on earth.
Daniel 7 is talking about the Fourth Beast
Matthew 21:43 and 22:1-14 are talking about
the (2nd) Jewish Beast and (3rd) Christian Beast

You are conflating "Beasts/Kingdoms"

In Daniel 7:25 they(saints) are given into his hand (little horn). Do you see this as saints being overcome in Revelation 13:7?

Yes, Daniel 7 is talking about the Fourth Beast/Kingdom
and Revelation 13 is also talking about the Fourth Beast/Kingdom
Two different perspectives about the SAME "Kingdom/Beast".

It doesn’t seem like the New Testament saints are given to the beast or little horn.

The NATURE of the Fourth Beast is the Last Saints "shall be given into his hand"...
but only for 3.5 "times".


Dan 7:21-22
I beheld, and the same [Little] Horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the [Last] Saints of the most High;
and the time came that [ALL] the Saints possessed the [eternal] Kingdom.


Dan 7:24-26
And the Ten Horns out of this [Fourth] Kingdom are Ten Kings that shall arise:
and another [Little Horn] shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
And he [the Little Horn] shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the [Last] Saints of the most High,
and think to change times and laws: and they [the Last Saints] shall be given into his hand [shall be ruled by him] until
a time and times and the dividing of time. [3.5 "times" represents the duration of the 4th Beast/Revelation Beast/
Great Tribulation/rule of the Anti-Christ/Satan's "Little Season"] But the judgment shall sit, and they [the Last Saints]
shall take away his [the Little Horn's] dominion [authority], to consume and to destroy it [the Fourth Beast]
unto the end [of time].


I hope this helps,
Jim

 

[BillCody]

John 14:1-6

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Clearly we believers are going to taken (rapture) to heaven. Why would Jesus tell us about mansions in heaven and coming to receive us. If we are never going to occupy them. Seven year wedding of Jesus Christ to his bride (believers). The tribulation saints are those who didn't know or want to know Jesus and now are converting because of the rapture. So those of you that want to stay during the tribulation can stay. But by the Grace of God, I'm leaving.

 

[grafted branch]

The NATURE of the Fourth Beast is the Last Saints "shall be given into his hand"...
but only for 3.5 "times".

In Romans 8:35-39 things to come shall not separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

When the saints are “given into his hand” is there a separation here? Or would this be considered a different dispensation?

 

[DavidPT]

Rev 13 is only talking about AFTER Satan is loosened from the Bottomless Pit
Rev 13 is only talking about the Fourth Beast

You conflate the two different "Beasts" in Rev 20
with the one Revelation "Beast" in Rev 13




There are FOUR (4) Beasts on earth.
Rev 20 is talking about the 3rd Beast AND the 4th Beast
Rev 13 is ONLY talking about the 4th Beast

You are conflating two Beasts into one Beast.
That is why it's important to understand the CONTEXT of Rev 20
That is why it's important to be able to DEFINE the words you are using.

You have to know WHAT the "Beast" and "Image" and "Mark" represent
BEFORE you can offer an "informed opinion" on the subject.
I say that with all due respect.

.

I don't see any of this nor anything you submitted in your post reasonably explaining the point I was raising, that until one beast rises out of the sea, another one out of the earth, and that the 2nd beast then fulfills what is recorded in Revelation 13:14, there is no image in the meantime to worship or not worship.

And clearly, Revelation 20:4 indicates the saints did not worship the beast, nor it's image, obviously pertaining to the image they made per Revelation 13:14, therefore, their martyrdom occurs during the rule of the AC. Unless you want to argue that Revelation 13:14 isn't even involving the rule of the AC, and that you can then show why it isn't.

Because, once again, Revelation 20:4 and this part---and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands--is undeniably involving the same era of time Revelation 13 is involving. And that this is meaning before satan is loosed from the pit. And since it is not reasonable that they are martyred during the thousand years, this means they are martyred before the thousand years begin, therefore, placing the time of the rule of the AC before that of the beginning of the thousand years, and not after the thousand years instead.

 

[DavidPT]

In Romans 8:35-39 things to come shall not separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

When the saints are “given into his hand” is there a separation here? Or would this be considered a different dispensation?

You ignoring the fact about it involving the love of God. That would be like saying, since God is allowing saints to be persecuted and some of them being killed, this then separates them from the love of God. You wouldn't think that, right? So why would you think that if God allows saints to be given into the hand of the little horn for an allotted amount of time, that this then somehow separates them from the love of God, as if God washed His hands of them, and abandoned them altogether.

Edited to add.

I meant to add the following at the time, but neglected to. And since it is still on my mind, I guess I better add it now.

If interpreters would simply quit listening to past Commentators, thus stop allowing them to brainwash them via some of their interpretations involving some of Daniel 11 and 12, for instance, and how they insist some of that applies to the days of A4E, one could then know why God allows his saints to be given into the hand of the little horn for a spell. The following in both chapters give a good reason why.

Daniel 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Daniel 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.


Those things fit the NT church age, not the days of A4E instead.

 

[5thKingdom]

Clearly we believers are going to taken (rapture) to heaven. Why would Jesus tell us about mansions in heaven and coming to receive us. If we are never going to occupy them.

Of course we are going to occupy them.
But NOT after a mythical "rapture" that is NEVER taught in the Bible;


Instead, we occupy the mansions AFTER the Final Harvest when (1) the Lord Returns with a shout and
(2) the dead Saints are resurrected and (3) the Last Saints are "changed in a moment,
in the twinkling of an eye.. at the LAST TRUMP.


You are simply conflating some mythical "rapture" with the Final Harvest.
The verse below could not be more clear about that reality.


1Co 15:50-51
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


1Th 4:15-18
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord
shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain
shall be caught up [in the final harvest and NOT some mythical rapture] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord
in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


Moreover... WHEN does all this happen?
After the "Man of Sin" has been "revealed".
Scripture is very clear about WHEN this happens


2Th 2:1-8
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that
the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come
a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself
above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself
that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth,
and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


Now... you can believe in a mythical "rapture"... but you must INTENTIONALLY IGNORE
the passages above. The choice is yours.

Seven year wedding of Jesus Christ to his bride (believers). The tribulation saints are those who didn't know or want to know Jesus and now are converting because of the rapture. So those of you that want to stay during the tribulation can stay. But by the Grace of God, I'm leaving.

Utter nonsense.
Deal with the passages above.


BTW... WHY in the world would you believe in a mythical "rapture"
when you cannot even provide ONE VERSE from the Bible showing this "rapture"?
Every verse you THINK shows a rapture is actually showing the Final Harvest.
Scripture could not be more clear about this reality.


Jim

 

[Clare73]

WHY in the world would you believe in a mythical "rapture"
when you cannot even provide ONE VERSE from the Bible showing this "rapture"?
Every verse you THINK shows a rapture is actually showing the Final Harvest.
Scripture could not be more clear about this reality.

Better-informed is called for.

"Rapture" is the English translation of the Latin "rapturo" from the first translation of the Bible out of the Greek by Jerome.
The Latin rapturo is the translation of the Greek harpazo (snatch or catch away) in 1Th 4:17,
which is the "rapture" or gathering of the saints to the Lord at the second coming in 2 Th 2:1, etc.

There is more than one verse in the Bible showing this "rapture."

 

[grafted branch]

You ignoring the fact about it involving the love of God. That would be like saying, since God is allowing saints to be persecuted and some of them being killed, this then separates them from the love of God. You wouldn't think that, right? So why would you think that if God allows saints to be given into the hand of the little horn for an allotted amount of time, that this then somehow separates them from the love of God, as if God washed His hands of them, and abandoned them altogether.

Edited to add.

I meant to add the following at the time, but neglected to. And since it is still on my mind, I guess I better add it now.

If interpreters would simply quit listening to past Commentators, thus stop allowing them to brainwash them via some of their interpretations involving some of Daniel 11 and 12, for instance, and how they insist some of that applies to the days of A4E, one could then know why God allows his saints to be given into the hand of the little horn for a spell. The following in both chapters give a good reason why.

Daniel 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Daniel 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.


Those things fit the NT church age, not the days of A4E instead.

The problem as I see it is that the beast overcomes the saints. Since the Bible is not written from the perspective of unbelievers or from the perspective of the beast, it is the saints themselves that understand they are being overcome.

In Romans 8:37 we are more than conquerors, even in death. How is it that a saint can be overcome? What condition or circumstances would have to happen to make you think that you, as a saint, are overcome?

 

[5thKingdom]

1Th 4:17, which is the "rapture" or gathering of the saints to the Lord at the second coming in 2 Th 2:1, etc.

As I have already shown you..
the event in 1 Thess 4:17 happens '

(1) at the "coming of the Lord and
(2) when the Lord descends from heaven with a shout
(3) at the resurrection of the dead
(4) with the Trum;p of God

If you want to PRETEND that represents the rapture
then go ahead and pretend the rapture happens at that time.


1Th 4:15-18
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord
shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain
shall be caught up [in the final harvest and NOT some mythical rapture] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord
in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

There is more than one verse in the Bible showing this "rapture."

Well 1 Thess 4 does NOT show the rapture...
what other verses do YOU think show the rapture?
I will tell you now... they all represent the Final Harvest
which happens

(1) at the coming of the Lord and
(2) when the Lord descends from heaven with a shout
(3) at the resurrection of the dead
(4) with the Trum;p of God

Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

And clearly, Revelation 20:4 indicates the saints did not worship the beast, nor it's image,

Is that the Third Beast or the Fourth Beast?
If you do not know then you cannot offer an "informed opinion"

obviously pertaining to the image they made per Revelation 13:14,

There is no question Rev 13 is talking about the Fourth (Revelation) Beast
which arises AFTER Satan is "loosened" from the Bottomless Pit

Your PROBLEM is Rev 20 talks about TWO (2) Beasts
(1) the (3rd) Beast existing while Satan is in the Bottomless Pit and
(2) the (4th) Beast existing AFTER Satan is loosened from the Pit

You are conflating two (2) Beasts...
as I have clearly demonstrated several times.

therefore, their martyrdom occurs during the rule of the AC.

How can that be when the (3rd) Beast in Rev 20 exists BEFORE Satan is loosend
and BEFORE the Anti-Christ arises?

you are conflating two Beasts (the 3rd and 4th Beast)
and that is why you cannot find Truth

I am sorry, I cannot help you to understand the Truth
when you refuse to "see" Rev 20 talks about the (3rd) Beast WHILE Satan is bound
and the (4th) Beast AFTER Satan is loosened for the Great Tribulation and the Anti-Christ

you conflate two Beasts
so you cannot possibly find Biblical Truth

Jim

 

[Clare73]

As I have already shown you..
the event in 1 Thess 4:17 happens '
(1) at the "coming of the Lord and
(2) when the Lord descends from heaven with a shout
(3) at the resurrection of the dead
(4) with the Trum;p of God

If you want to PRETEND that represents the rapture
then go ahead and pretend the rapture happens at that time.

Yes, NT apostolic teaching, as opposed to personal interpretation of prophetic riddles (Nu 12:8), locates the one rapture at the one resurrection at the one coming of the Lord at the one end of time.

1Th 4:15-18
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord
shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain
shall be caught up [in the final harvest and NOT some mythical rapture] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord
in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

In context, the issue is the deceased saints missing the rapture because they will be in their graves when Jesus returns immediately prior to the resurrection.
Paul explains that the one and only resurrection will occur first, where the deceased saints will rise from the dead, then there will be the rapture of all the saints together to meet the Lord in the air.

Well 1 Thess 4 does NOT show the rapture...

That is precisely what 1 Th 4:15-17 shows. . .it couldn't be any clearer.

 

[5thKingdom]

I don't see any of this nor anything you submitted in your post reasonably explaining the point I was raising, that until one beast rises out of the sea, another one out of the earth, and that the 2nd beast then fulfills what is recorded in Revelation 13:14, there is no image in the meantime to worship or not worship.

Rev 13 shows a Beast rising out of the sea and one out of the earth
because the Revelation Beast consists of

Two “Woes” … the 1st Woe and 2nd Woe [Rev 9:12-15 and Rev 11:14]
Two “Trumpet” Judgments … the Fifth and Sixth Trumpet Judgments [Rev 9:1 and 9:13]
Two Separate “Beasts” … the First Beast and then “another” Beast [Rev 13:1 and 13:13]
Two “Heads” and Two “Kings” … the Seventh and Eighth “Head/King” [Rev 17:9-11]

You want to understand what the Bible Teaches when you do not even understand the BASICS of the Revelation Beast.

There is SO MUCH you need to understand BEFORE you can hope to offer an "informed opinion"
about either the Third Beast (existing while Satan is bound) and the Fourth Beast existing AFTER Satan is loosend from the Pit

I wonder...
do you even understand that
The Revelation Beast is also shown as (1) Daniel's Fourth Beast
and (2) the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1] and
(3) the rule of the Anti-Christ during (4) Satan's "Little Season" AFTER
he is loosened from the Bottomless Pit?

I you do not understand these basics then you cannot understand the Revelation Beast...
OR the (3rd) Beast spoken of in Rev 20 - the Beast existing BEFORE Satan is loosened from the Pit.

The Bible is very clear [Dan 7:23] there are FOUR Beasts that arise on earth.
Rev 20 talks about the THIRD Beast and the FOURTH Beast
you cannot tell the difference.

That is why you are confused and cannot find Biblical Truth

Because, once again, Revelation 20:4...

Until you can understand the Rev 20 talks about TWO (2) different Beasts
(1) the Beast existing WHILE Satan is bound in the Bottomless Pit and
(2) the (Revelation) Beast existing AFTER Satan is loosened from the Pit

Until you can understand that reality - you will never find Biblical Truth
about Rev 20 or Rev 13

It's really as simple as that.

Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

In context, the issue is the deceased saints missing the rapture because they will be in their graves when Jesus returns immediately prior to the resurrection. Paul explains that the one and only resurrection will occur first, where the deceased saints will rise from the dead, then there will be the rapture of all the saints together to meet the Lord in the air.

That is NOT the "rapture"... it is the Final Harvest
Do you understand the DIFFERENCE between the mythical "rapture" and the "Final Harvest"?

That is precisely what 1 Th 4:15-17 shows. . .it couldn't be any clearer.

1 Thess 4 shows the Final Harvest
is does not show the mythical "rapture"
which (supposedly) happens BEFORE the Great Trib.

 

[5thKingdom]

locates the one rapture at the one resurrection at the one coming of the Lord at the one end of time.

You are very confused.
The teaching about a "rapture" is an event BEFORE the Coming of the Lord... before the Great Tribulation
The "Final Harvest" happens AFTER the Great Tribulation... at the Coming of the Lord.

You are conflating TWO different events

Jim

 

[Clare73]

That is NOT the "rapture"... it is the Final Harvest

Not according to NT apostolic teaching, where the snatching, catching up of the saints (harpazo, rapture) in 1Th 4:15-17 is the one and only rapture at the one and only coming of the Lord at the one and only resurrection.

You have no authority in your personal interpretation of prophetic riddles (Nu 12:8) to declare the rapture (harpazo)
in the NT apostolic teaching of 1Th 4:17 to be "mythical."

 

[DavidPT]

Is that the Third Beast or the Fourth Beast?
If you do not know then you cannot offer an "informed opinion"

How about this then? Since the saints in question per Revelation 20:4 are martyred for not worshiping the image of the beast, can you show how the image of the beast is connected with the 3rd beast when it is not until the time of the 4th beast any image of the beast is ever made?

And here's another angle to consider.

Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.


This event gets fulfilled only one time, which then means everyone this vial is poured out on, they are all living in the same era of time, obviously. And the fact that the saints in question per Revelation 20:4 did not have the mark of the beast, nor worshiped his image, this still means some did. Which then means the first vial is meant for them, meaning the ones that are not refusing his mark, are not refusing to worship his image.

So, how does the first vial get poured out on them if you have Revelation 20:4 and when those saints in question are being martyred, not involving the same era of time the first vial is involving? Why would those involving that era of time, who are worshiping his image, who have his mark, not have to face the wrath of God via any of the vials, but anyone having his mark , worshiping his image, in this different era of time, after the thousand years according to you, these have to face God's wrath and these vials?

 

[Clare73]

You are conflating TWO different events

Actually, you are multiplying the same events. . .

In your personal interpretation of prophetic riddles (Nu 12:8), you are presenting as multiple events what NT apostolic teaching presents as one and the same event, the snatching up of the saints (rapture).

Because your personal interpretation of these prophetic riddles (Nu 12:8) teaches an extra coming of Christ (before the tribulation) which NT apostolic teaching does not present, you must multiply events and things which are the same, so as not to contradict NT apostolic teaching which locates these events with the coming of Christ after the tribulation.