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The Last Saints

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5thKingdom

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Not according to NT apostolic teaching, where the snatching, catching up of the saints (harpazo, rapture) in 1Th 4:15-17 is the one and only rapture at the one and only coming of the Lord at the one and only resurrection.

You have no authority in your personal interpretation of prophetic riddles (Nu 12:8) to declare the rapture (harpazo)
in the NT apostolic teaching of 1Th 4:17 to be "mythical."


Yes... the NT apostolic teaching is the Saints are "changed" at the same time as the Lord "descends from Heaven with a shout"...
and the resurrection of the dead...in other words, at the "Final Harvest"

The church teaching of a (supposed) "rapture" is a DIFFERENT EVENT that occurs BEFORE the "Final Harvest"

Yes, I do have the "authority" to say the teaching of a "rapture" is mythical because
the apostles NEVER taught the Saints would be "raptured" BEFORE the "Final Harvest"

By the way... when you cite Nu 12:8...
then you should also cite Daniel 12:4 and 12:8-10
which declares the Last Saints "shall understand" Biblical mysteries
which had remained "closed-up" and "sealed" to all previous Saints
until the Last Saints "shall understand" at the "Time-of-the-End"..
which is where we are today


Dan 12:4
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the Time-of-the-End:
many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Dan 12:8-10
And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are CLOSED-UP AND SEALED till the Time-of-the-End.
Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand;
but the wise [Last Saints] shall understand.


Bottom Line:
The Bible does not teach of a "rapture" except during the "Final Harvest"
The church teaching of a (mythical) "rapture" BEFORE the "Final Harvest" is a false doctrine.


Jim
 
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5thKingdom

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In your personal interpretation of prophetic riddles (Nu 12:8), you are presenting as multiple events what NT apostolic teaching presents as one and the same event, the snatching up of the saints (rapture).


That is hilarious. The Biblical teaching of the "Final Harvest" is hardly a "riddle".
It is taught plainly in MANY different NT passages.


If you are saying the Apostles taught the "rapture" occurs at the "Final Harvest"... then I agree.
If you are saying the "rapture" occurs BEFORE the "Final Harvest" then you are completely wrong.


Your personal interpretation of these prophetic riddles (Nu 12:8)...


LOL... I did not present "personal interpretations"... you are creating a strawman argument
And NU 12:8 doe NOT apply to the clear Biblical teaching of the Final Harvest... it is hilarious for you to suggest such a thing.


Again... if you are teaching the "rapture" happens at the "Final Harvest" then we are in agreement (so much for Nu 12:8)
However, if you are teaching (as the church teaches) the "rapture" happens BEFORE the "Final Harvest" the you are just wrong.


I assumed you understood the church teaches the "rapture" occurs BEFORE the "Final Harvest".


Jim
 
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5thKingdom

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How about this then? Since the saints in question per Revelation 20:4 are martyred for not worshiping the image of the beast, can you show how the image of the beast is connected with the 3rd beast when it is not until the time of the 4th beast any image of the beast is ever made?


Yes, each and every "Kingdom/Beast" that rises (there are four) included a "Beast" and "Image" and a "Mark of the Beast"
that is why you cannot offer an "informed opinion" when you cannot even DEFINE the meaning of these words.


And here's another angle to consider.

Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.


This event gets fulfilled only one time...

No...
that event only occurs one time DURING the Revelation Beast (the Fourth Beast on earth)
we are in agreement on that.

However, that does not negate the fact that EACH "Beast" (of the Four Beast that arise on earth)
included a "Beast" and "Image" and a "Mark of the Beast".

So... in Rev 20 the Bible shows BOTH the Third "Beast" and the Fourth "Beast"
if you do not understand this reality then you cannot possibly understand the passage
or offer an "informed opinion" on the MEANING of the passage.


And the fact that the saints in question per Revelation 20:4 did not have the mark of the beast, nor worshiped his image, this still means some did. Which then means the first vial is meant for them, meaning the ones that are not refusing his mark, are not refusing to worship his image.

Yes... you finally get it?
Some people during the THIRD "Beast" worshipped the "Image" and took the "Mark"
However that is SEPARATE from those in the FOURTH "Beast" (aka the Revelation Beast and the Great Tribulation)

So, how does the first vial get poured out on them if you have Revelation 20:4...

The fist vial happens DURING the FOURTH Beast - the Revelation Beast.
However, Rev 20:4 talks about the THIRD Beast and the FOURTH Beast.
When you conflate these TWO (2) Beasts you cannot find Biblical Truth.


Jim

and when those saints in question are being martyred, not involving the same era of time the first vial is involving?

The saints martyred n Rev 20 are during the THIRD Beast and
have NOTHING to do with the Saints living in the FOURTH Beast.
When you conflate these two (2) Beasts you cannot find Biblical Truth


Why would those involving that era of time, who are worshiping his image, who have his mark, not have to face the wrath of God via any of the vials,

Because they live during the THIRD Beast
While the vial happen during the FOURTH Beast
This is not difficult to understand - what is your problem?


Jim
 
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5thKingdom

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God said he gives prophecy not clearly, but in riddles (Nu 12:8).


No... God says this:

Mat 13:11
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven,
but to them it is not given.

BTW... I noticed that you INTENTIONALLY IGNORED Daniel 12:4 and Daniel 12:8-10
Why would you intentionally ignore verses that contradict your premise?
Is the BIBLE your authority or not?

Jim
 
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5thKingdom

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God said he gives prophecy not clearly, but in riddles (Nu 12:8).


Mat 13:13
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Mat 13:16-17
But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see,
and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Jim
 
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Clare73

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No... God says this:

Mat 13:11
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven,
but to them it is not given.

The mysteries (secrets) are the NT apostolic teaching; e.g., the incarnation, the death of Christ, God's purpose to sum up all things in Christ, to include both Jews and Gentiles in the church, the change that will take place at the resurrection, the plan whereby God's irrevocable gifts and call are being fulfilled in a remnant, etc., which are not things whose meaning is hidden, but things simply never before revealed.

BTW... I noticed that you INTENTIONALLY IGNORED Daniel 12:4 and Daniel 12:8-10
Why would you intentionally ignore verses that contradict your premise?
Is the BIBLE your authority or not?

NT apostolic teaching is my authority, not unclear prophetic riddles (Nu 12:8) subject to more than one interpretation, where your personal interpretation is contrary to that teaching.
 
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Clare73

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Mat 13:13
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

The parables were not riddles, they were analogies by which Jesus protected himself from Jewish charges of sedition and blasphemy.

Mat 13:16-17
But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see,
and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Jim
 
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5thKingdom

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The parables were not riddles, they were analogies by which Jesus protected himself from Jewish charges of sedition and blasphemy.

You have a right to your opinion.

BTW... NU 12:8... was that written for OT Saints or NT Saints???
LOL... you do not even understand the CONTEXT of your "proof texts"

Your "proof text" applied to only OT Saints and not NT Saints.
That is hilarious
 
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5thKingdom

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How about this then? Since the saints in question per Revelation 20:4 are martyred for not worshiping the image of the beast, can you show how the image of the beast is connected with the 3rd beast when it is not until the time of the 4th beast any image of the beast is ever made?


It occurred to me that I might be able to HELP YOU to see the CONTEXT of Rev 20
by examining the verses.


This first passage is talking about the time when Satan is bound in the Bottomless Pit.
This was BEFORE Satan is "loosened" from the Pit to BEGIN the Fourth Beast... the Revelation Beast... the "Little Season"
This is the THIRD "Kingdom/Beast".


Rev 20:1-4
And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more,
till the thousand years should be fulfilled:
and after that he must be loosed a Little Season. [the Fourth Beast/Revelation Beast]
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded
for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years
.


This represents the A-Millennial Kingdom of the (3rd) Christian Church.
This represents the Great Commission of the Church Age in which the Saints "lived and reigned with Christ"
until the "End of the Age"... the end of the Great Commission. [Mat 28:18-20]


Yes, there was a "Beast".... the THIRD "Beast" and yes, there was in "Image" in the Third Beast
and yes, there was a "Mark of the Beast" during the Third Beast... this is WHY you need to be able
to DEFINE the words you use BEFORE you can pretend to offer an "informed opinion".


BTW... the THIRD "Beast" did NOT have a "Little Horn" or "False Prophet" or "Man of Sin" or THE Anti-Christ...
HE would not arise until the FOURTH "Beast"... after Satan is loosened from the Bottomless Pit.


Now... AFTER Satan is released from the Bottomless Pit, we have the FOURTH (Revelation) Beast arise.
So this is a DIFFERENT "Kingdom/Beast" as that in verses 1-4 (while Satan is bound in the Bottomless Pit)
As I told you, you are conflating two separate "Beasts"


Rev 20:7-10
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations
which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as
the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the
beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast
into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for
ever and ever.



So... Rev 20 shows TWO (2) separate "Beasts"
One WHILE Satan is bound in the Bottomless Pit and (the 3rd Christian Beast)
One AFTER Satan is "loosened" from the Bottomless Pit (the 4th Revelation Beast)
You ASSUMED it was only talking about the Revelation Beast... you assumed wrong.


I hope this example FINALLY makes your mistake clear to you.
Please ask questions if you have them.



Briefly, there are four (4) "Beasts" that arise on earth

the (1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom
the (2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 22:2]
the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 13, in 7 verses]
the (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]


The last "Kingdom/Beast" is shown as

(1) Daniel's Fourth Beast
(2) the Revelation Beast
(3) the Great Tribulation
(4) the RULE of the Anti-Christ during
(5) Satan's "Little Season" AFTER the Bottomless Pit


Jim
 
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Zao is life

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What I can't figure out is why you are not factoring in any of what I have underlined below, how you are getting around any of that?

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands ; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

One thing this tells us is this. The fact they are martyred for refusing to worship the beast and what all that involves, such as refusing the mark, they are martyred before satan is ever loosed from the pit. It also tells us that they are martyred during the rule of the Anti-Christ, since it is ludricrous that when they are martyred, none of this is involving what is recorded in Revelation 13, which also records the 42 month reign of the beast, the rule of the AC. Which then means you are incorrect to place that rule after the thousand years if that rule is already in affect when they are martyred. You are not going to argue that they, meaning the martyrs I have underlined in Revelation 20:4, are martyred while the beast is not even active in the earth at the time, thus when it is in the pit, are you?
I agree

People being killed for [refusing to worship the beast or his image or receive his mark or the number of his name] is mentioned twice in the Revelation (Revelation 13:11-18 and Revelation 20:4) This makes Revelation 20:4-6 a marker that indicates that Revelation Chapter 20 follows Christ's destruction of this same beast in the lake of fire (which we read about for the last time in Revelation 19:11-21).

The chapter and verse divisions in the New Testament (including the book of Revelation) were only inserted in the year 1227 A.D. This is what Revelation 19:11 - Revelation 20:6 looks like in the original texts (Revelation 20:4-6 has been highlighted in blue font here):

και ειδον τον ουρανον ανεωγμενον και ιδου ιππος λευκος και ο καθημενος επ αυτον καλουμενος πιστος και αληθινος και εν δικαιοσυνη κρινει και πολεμει οι δε οφθαλμοι αυτου ως φλοξ πυρος και επι την κεφαλην αυτου διαδηματα πολλα εχων ονομα γεγραμμενον ο ουδεις οιδεν ει μη αυτος και περιβεβλημενος ιματιον βεβαμμενον αιματι και καλειται το ονομα αυτου ο λογος του θεου και τα στρατευματα τα εν τω ουρανω ηκολουθει αυτω εφ ιπποις λευκοις ενδεδυμενοι βυσσινον λευκον και καθαρον και εκ του στοματος αυτου εκπορευεται ρομφαια οξεια ινα εν αυτη πατασση τα εθνη και αυτος ποιμανει αυτους εν ραβδω σιδηρα και αυτος πατει την ληνον του οινου του θυμου και της οργης του θεου του παντοκρατορος και εχει επι το ιματιον και επι τον μηρον αυτου ονομα γεγραμμενον βασιλευς βασιλεων και κυριος κυριων και ειδον ενα αγγελον εστωτα εν τω ηλιω και εκραξεν φωνη μεγαλη λεγων πασιν τοις ορνεοις τοις πετωμενοις εν μεσουρανηματι δευτε και συναγεσθε εις το δειπνον του μεγαλου θεου ινα φαγητε σαρκας βασιλεων και σαρκας χιλιαρχων και σαρκας ισχυρων και σαρκας ιππων και των καθημενων επ αυτων και σαρκας παντων ελευθερων τε και δουλων και μικρων και μεγαλων και ειδον το θηριον και τους βασιλεις της γης και τα στρατευματα αυτων συνηγμενα ποιησαι πολεμον μετα του καθημενου επι του ιππου και μετα του στρατευματος αυτου και επιασθη το θηριον και μετα τουτου ο ψευδοπροφητης ο ποιησας τα σημεια ενωπιον αυτου εν οις επλανησεν τους λαβοντας το χαραγμα του θηριου και τους προσκυνουντας τη εικονι αυτου ζωντες εβληθησαν οι δυο εις την λιμνην του πυρος την καιομενην εν τω θειω και οι λοιποι απεκτανθησαν εν τη ρομφαια του καθημενου επι του ιππου τη εκπορευομενη εκ του στοματος αυτου και παντα τα ορνεα εχορτασθησαν εκ των σαρκων αυτων και ειδον αγγελον καταβαινοντα εκ του ουρανου εχοντα την κλειδα της αβυσσου και αλυσιν μεγαλην επι την χειρα αυτου και εκρατησεν τον δρακοντα τον οφιν τον αρχαιον ος εστιν διαβολος και σατανας και εδησεν αυτον χιλια ετη και εβαλεν αυτον εις την αβυσσον και εκλεισεν αυτον και εσφραγισεν επανω αυτου ινα μη πλανηση τα εθνη ετι αχρι τελεσθη τα χιλια ετη και μετα ταυτα δει αυτον λυθηναι μικρον χρονον και ειδον θρονους και εκαθισαν επ αυτους και κριμα εδοθη αυτοις και τας ψυχας των πεπελεκισμενων δια την μαρτυριαν ιησου και δια τον λογον του θεου και οιτινες ου προσεκυνησαν τω θηριω ουτε την εικονα αυτου και ουκ ελαβον το χαραγμα επι το μετωπον αυτων και επι την χειρα αυτων και εζησαν και εβασιλευσαν μετα χριστου χιλια ετη οι δε λοιποι των νεκρων ουκ ανεζησαν εως τελεσθη τα χιλια ετη αυτη η αναστασις η πρωτη μακαριος και αγιος ο εχων μερος εν τη αναστασει τη πρωτη επι τουτων ο θανατος ο δευτερος ουκ εχει εξουσιαν αλλ εσονται ιερεις του θεου και του χριστου και βασιλευσουσιν μετ αυτου χιλια ετη

So unless they were martyred for their refusal to worship the beast before the beast appeared, the millennium cannot have begun.
OR unless the beast appeared in the 1st century A.D, the millennium has not begun.

Copy @5thKingdom I'm not a Premillennialist, nor an Amillennialist, nor a Post-millennialist. How long was Adam living in the garden of Eden as a human who would not die, being permitted to eat of the tree of life freely, before God allowed Satan to test mankind? Did Adam's fall mark the end of God's sabbath?

Adam's death was the first death and it came to all mankind. Christ, the last Adam and Son of man came as a man and bore all Adam's and the sons of Adam's sins, died and rose again. The Revelation tells us that there will be no 2nd sacrifice for sins and no 2nd resurrection from the 2nd death.

Only those who had been martyred for their testimony to Christ are promised that the 2nd death has no power over them. The text is silent on all the others who fell asleep in Christ and who will rise again from the dead at the time of His coming. By the time Christ comes, some saints will have been tested the way Adam was, others not, and if Adam was alive as a human who would not die, having the right to eat of the tree of life freely, and yet died after he sinned, then being resurrected makes no difference if mankind is tested one more time before the GWT judgment. Only those who had already been tested are promised that the 2nd death will have no power over them.
 
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Zao is life

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Daniel 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Daniel 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.


Those things fit the NT church age, not the days of A4E instead.
@DavidPT I've added to this to remind you of something else that I said about it long ago:

Bear in mind that I believe that A4E is the type of the man of sin, and A4E placed an idol in the temple - but it was not destroyed because of that abomination. Once he had been ousted the temple was cleansed and rededicated to God.

I believe the only New Testament Temple is the church, and the New Testament Temple cannot be destroyed - but it can be defiled. The man of sin will himself be the idol in the temple.

Bear in mind also that Daniel 9:26 states that the city and the sanctuary would both be destroyed. Jesus wept over Jerusalem and told the Jews that their house was going to be left to them desolate (Matthew 23:37-38). He said that to the religious leaders of the Jews. Then He departed from the temple, went down through the Kidron valley and up the hill to the top of the Mount of Olives, where He repeated to His disciples what He had just told the Jewish leaders.

That's three things to tell us that Jesus was speaking of the abominations (plural) mentioned in Daniel 9:26-27. But immediately afterward Jesus began to tell His disciples of the tribulation they would face at the hand of all nations (Matthew 24:9-14), and in this context He said to them, "therefore, when you shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet standing in the holy place (let the reader understand) ..

The Day of Atonement comes 4 days short of 7 months after Jesus was crucified, and the Day of Atonement marks the mid-point of the seven years, i.e the 70th week of Daniel. So there is a gap then of more than 3.5 years from the time Messiah was crucified on 15 Nisan 30 A.D till the end of the 70th week.

But Daniel 9:26 stated that the city and temple would be destroyed. So to me it's far more likely that the gap between the crucifixion of Jesus and the final "3.5 years" is referring to the 40-years of Jews "wandering in the wilderness in unbelief" before the city and temple were destroyed.

But I can't both believe that the woman in the wilderness for 3.5 years (Revelation Chapter 12) refers symbolically to the 40 years between the crucifixon of Jesus and the destruction of A.D 70, and believe that it refers to the final 3.5 years of this age - but I can believe (and do believe) that a prophecy can be fulfilled more than once because of types and antitypes - and it starts with Joseph in Egypt, whose life in so many respects makes Joseph a type of Jesus, but things do not happen in exactly the same way the second time: Jesus was not sold into slavery to an Egyptian ruler, was not falsely accused by that ruler's Gentile wife, was not locked in a dungeon in Egypt and brought out years later by Pharaoh, etc etc.

But the type and antitype teaches us that in the same way, so many prophecies (for example) prophecies referring to the destruction of Babylon, are "fulfilled" again in the destruction of the beast/nations at the close of this age, and this is why the Revelation uses the same imagery and metaphor used against Babylon - but the second fulfillment of the same prophecy does not occur in exactly the same way.

I believe they fit both, brother, scripture thus teaching us that A4E is the biblical type of the man of sin:

The Type: Antiochus IV Epiphanes

Daniel 11
36 And the king shall do according to his will. And he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvelous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper until the fury is fulfilled. For that which is decreed shall be done.

37 He will not regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god. For he shall magnify himself above all.

The anti-type: The man of sin

2 Thessalonians 2
3 Let not anyone deceive you by any means. For that Day shall not come unless there first comes a falling away, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition,

4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself forth, that he is God.

A4E did indeed fulfill those prophecies - the history of it has been traced and correlated to the prophecies perfectly and without any discrepancy: Daniel 8:11; Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 12:11 are referring to the abomination of desolation that was set up in the holy place by Antiochus IV Epiphanes; but Daniel Chapter 12 is also the first part of the prophecy which is complemented (completed) by Jesus in Revelation 10 (compare Daniel 12:7 and Revelation 10:5-7, then compare the whole of Daniel Chapter 12 with Revelation Chapter 10).

The history of A4E will be repeated at the close of this Age.

Also (this is very important):
1. The abomination of desolation (singular) set up by Antiochus IV Epiphanes did not result in the destruction of the temple: After he was ousted by the Maccabees, the temple was cleansed, rededicated, and reconsecrated to God.
2. The abominations (plural) that were committed in Daniel 9:27 would result in the destruction of the temple.
 
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It occurred to me that I might be able to HELP YOU to see the CONTEXT of Rev 20
by examining the verses.


This first passage is talking about the time when Satan is bound in the Bottomless Pit.
This was BEFORE Satan is "loosened" from the Pit to BEGIN the Fourth Beast... the Revelation Beast... the "Little Season"
This is the THIRD "Kingdom/Beast".


Rev 20:1-4
And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more,
till the thousand years should be fulfilled:
and after that he must be loosed a Little Season. [the Fourth Beast/Revelation Beast]
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded
for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years
.


This represents the A-Millennial Kingdom of the (3rd) Christian Church.
This represents the Great Commission of the Church Age in which the Saints "lived and reigned with Christ"
until the "End of the Age"... the end of the Great Commission. [Mat 28:18-20]


Yes, there was a "Beast".... the THIRD "Beast" and yes, there was in "Image" in the Third Beast
and yes, there was a "Mark of the Beast" during the Third Beast... this is WHY you need to be able
to DEFINE the words you use BEFORE you can pretend to offer an "informed opinion".


BTW... the THIRD "Beast" did NOT have a "Little Horn" or "False Prophet" or "Man of Sin" or THE Anti-Christ...
HE would not arise until the FOURTH "Beast"... after Satan is loosened from the Bottomless Pit.


Now... AFTER Satan is released from the Bottomless Pit, we have the FOURTH (Revelation) Beast arise.
So this is a DIFFERENT "Kingdom/Beast" as that in verses 1-4 (while Satan is bound in the Bottomless Pit)
As I told you, you are conflating two separate "Beasts"


Rev 20:7-10
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations
which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as
the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the
beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast
into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for
ever and ever.



So... Rev 20 shows TWO (2) separate "Beasts"
One WHILE Satan is bound in the Bottomless Pit and (the 3rd Christian Beast)
One AFTER Satan is "loosened" from the Bottomless Pit (the 4th Revelation Beast)
You ASSUMED it was only talking about the Revelation Beast... you assumed wrong.


I hope this example FINALLY makes your mistake clear to you.
Please ask questions if you have them.



Briefly, there are four (4) "Beasts" that arise on earth

the (1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom
the (2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 22:2]
the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 13, in 7 verses]
the (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]


The last "Kingdom/Beast" is shown as

(1) Daniel's Fourth Beast
(2) the Revelation Beast
(3) the Great Tribulation
(4) the RULE of the Anti-Christ during
(5) Satan's "Little Season" AFTER the Bottomless Pit


Jim
There are major scriptural problems with your assertion that Satan is in the pit. And this is the second issue that the New Testament scriptures have with your assertions regarding the millennium:

Jesus called Satan "the ruler of this world" and the New Testament calls him "the prince of the power of the air who works in the sons of disobedience", who we are told will give the beast and false prophet his seat, power and great authority (Revelation Chapter 13). The saints are warned to be weary of his wiles and to resist him, and to put on the full armor of God because "we do not wrestle against flesh and blood" ( John 12:31; 1 Peter 5:8-9; Ephesians 6:11-12; Revelation 2:9-10 & Revelation 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 2:18; James 4:7 ).

Ephesians 2:2 tells us about Satan's influence over the societies of this world, this Age.

It spans the entire Age and culminates in the beast's war against the saints in Revelation Chapter 13 (see Revelation 13:7).

Note: Revelation Chapters 12 and 13 were not separated into different chapters before 1227 A.D. Revelation 12 tells us that after our Savior was caught up to God and to His throne, the devil came down to earth. First he went to war against the woman who had given birth to the Messiah, and then he went to war against "the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." (Revelation 12:17).

Immediately after that verse we read about the rise of the beast (not Satan, but the beast) from the bottomless pit, and Satan giving him his seat, power and great authority.

We know that by His death and resurrection, Christ destroyed the works of Satan, i.e Satan's power over death (Hebrews 2:14-15; 1 John 3:8) - but this reality will last forever and ever - it's not as though this reality will last only for a thousand years, to be reversed for a brief period at the close of the thousand years.

The fact that sin has been defeated by Christ, and condemned in the flesh (1 John 3:8; Romans 8:3) and Satan's power over death has been destroyed, cannot be taken as implying either that the devil has been already destroyed in the lake of fire, or that he was also bound at the time of his utter defeat so that he could no longer deceive the nations.

1. In Genesis chapter 3, we read of how Satan appeared in the Garden of Eden and deceived mankind.
2. Revelation 12:9 calls Satan "the great dragon" and "the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world."
3. The only reason given for Satan being bound in Revelation 20:1-3 is that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years have expired.

Many add to the scriptures at this point in order to take away from the meaning of the rest of the passage in Revelation 20, adding the words, "unto battle" to the words "deceive the nations" in order to assert that Satan is only currently "bound" so that he is unable to deceive the nations "unto battle". But adding to the scriptures and taking away from the scriptures like this (in order to adjust the meaning so as to comply with a particular understanding of the millennium) is very poor hermeneutics.

The same goes for the assertion that they were beheaded for their refusal to worship the same beast, spoken of for the first time in Revelation 13, before the beast appeared on the scene and received his power from Satan.

Developing ad-hoc theories regarding these two statements in Revelation Chapter 20 does no justice to the text.

Copy @DavidPT
 
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BillCody

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Many add to the scriptures at this point in order to take away from the meaning of the rest of the passage in the Revelation, adding the words, "unto battle" to the words "deceive the nations". But adding to the scriptures and taking away from the scriptures like this in order to adjust the meaning so as to comply with a particular understanding of the millennium is very poor hermeneutics.
It's more like this.

Revelation 22:18-19
18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.
 
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Zao is life

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It's more like this.

Revelation 22:18-19
18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.
To be fair that means that any one of us who ever has anything wrong in our understanding of the Revelation is adding to and taking away from the book. I would think Revelation 22:18-19 is talking about anyone who might knowingly and in actuality add to or delete in the text itself, i.e not leave the text alone.

Adding assumptions in our minds while interpreting what is written in the text is a different matter.
 
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BillCody

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I agree



Our opinions or commentary about the Word of God while seeking to understand God's truth is one thing.

But to alter God's Word to sell our truth is another. Which a lot of people these days are trying to do.

I see it as apostasy, turning away from God's truth to man's made up false beliefs about God's Word.
 
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Clare73

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You have a right to your opinion.

BTW... NU 12:8... was that written for OT Saints or NT Saints???

So God's prophecies are unclear riddles (Nu 12:8) only to OT saints, while NT saints are exempt from this rule?
Is it God or you that sees only parts of God's revelation as to be received by all God's people?
Is it God or you that sees his description of prophecy as applying to only parts of his prophecies?

More duplication of things that are the same (nature of prophecy), for the sake of your theology.

Your "proof text" applied to only OT Saints and not NT Saints.
That is hilarious

Depends on whether you believe authoritative NT apostolic teaching or not.

There is no question that it is you who personally interprets prophetic riddles in contradiction to authoritative NT apostolic teaching.
Would that such error were only hilarious.
 
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DavidPT

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Because they live during the THIRD Beast
While the vial happen during the FOURTH Beast
This is not difficult to understand - what is your problem?

And you still don't get it. If, when the saints per Revelation 20:4 are martyred for not worshiping the beast, nor it's image, and that this is meaning during the time of the third beast, that also means that during the time of the third beast, there are those that are worshiping the beast, that are worshiping his image, that have his mark, which means the first vial is meant for them. Except, how can it be meant for them when the first vial is not even poured out until the time of the 4th beast? Once again, why would those having the mark during the 3rd beast not have to face any of the vials of wrath, but those during the 4th beast do?

Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.


Regardless what it actually looks like when this is fulfilled, the text states that they are to make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. Was there during the time of the third beast, this----which had the wound by a sword, and did live? If no, then how can there be any image one way or the other prior to the time of the 4th beast, when it is to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live, an image is made? Where are your Scriptures, proving an image was also made to the 3rd beast? Afterall, in order to not worship it's image, it requires that there has to be an image to worship, in order to refuse to worship it.

The way I interpret some of Revelation 20:4 is like such, by comparing with Revelation 13 in order to do so.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast(which had the wound by a sword, and did live), neither his image(after those dwelling on the earth made an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live), neither had received his mark(which had the wound by a sword, and did live) upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Everything points to the fact, that when these saints in question are martyred, they are martyred during the era of time involving the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. This then places the time of the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live, not after the thousand years, but prior to the thousand years. Which then means the time of the 4th beast precedes the beginning of the thousand years. Which then means it matters where one places the beginning of the thousand years. If one places the beginning of the thousand years 2000 years ago, it makes nonsense out of when those who did not worship the beast(Revelation 20:4), are initially martyred.

Not to mention, according to Revelation 17, at the time of John seeing these visions, he indicated the beast 'is not' and that it was to ascend out of the pit sometime in the future. In order to ascend out of the pit, it requires that it first has to be in the pit, which then means when it is not, it is in the pit at the time. How then does it makes sense anyone is martyred for refusing to worship the beast that is not even active in the earth at the time if it is in the pit instead?

You chalk this up us conflating the third beast with the 4th beast, when I have yet to see you prove with Scripture that anyone ever made an image to the 3rd beast as well. Where are the Scriptures that prove that? And once again, why did God look the other way in their case, meaning in regards to those allegedly worshiping his image during the time of the 3rd beast, by not having them face any of his wrath via the vials of wrath, but during the time of the fourth beast, anyone doing what they allegedly did during the time of the 3rd beast, they have to face God's wrath via these vials?
 
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5thKingdom

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People being killed for [refusing to worship the beast or his image or receive his mark or the number of his name] is mentioned twice in the Revelation (Revelation 13:11-18 and Revelation 20:4) This makes Revelation 20:4-6 a marker that indicates that Revelation Chapter 20 follows Christ's destruction of this same beast in the lake of fire (which we read about for the last time in Revelation 19:11-21).


Of course the PROBLEM with your position is that it does not understand the CONTEXT of Rev 20 and Rev 13.


Rev. 20 shows TWO (2) different Beasts.
If you cannot understand the CONTEXT you cannot understand the MEANING
You cannot possibly understand Rev 20 when you think it only shows ONE BEAST.


The first Beast shown in Rev 20 is the THIRD BEAST on earth.

The Beast that exists
WHILE Satan is bound in the Bottomless Pit.
The Beast that exists WHILE the Great Commission goes out and
the Saints "lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years"...
this represent the AMillennial Kingdom known as the Church Age.
This represents the THIRD BEAST on earth, known as the Church Age


Rev 20:3-4
And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations
no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones,
and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness
of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark
upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


The second Beast of Rev 20 is the FOURTH BEAST on earth.

The Beast that exists AFTER Satan is released from the Bottomless Pit
The Beast that is shown as (1) Daniel's Fourth Beast and (2) the Revelation Beast and
(3) the Great Tribulation Kingdom and (4) the RULE of Satan and his Anti-Christ
(shown as the Little Horn, and False Prophet and Man of Sin) during
(5) Satan's "Little Season" AFTER being released from the Pit.


Rev 20:7-8
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog,
to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


So... in Rev 20 we see the THIRD BEAST [verses 1-4] and we see the FOURTH BEAST [verses 7-8]...
you are conflating the two Beasts into ONE BEAST. That is where you err.


Your error is compounded because you cannot DEFINE the terms "Beast" and "Image" and "Mark"...
you cannot offer an "informed opinion" on words you cannot DEFINE


During the THIRD BEAST there is an "Image" and a "Mark of the Beast"
During the FOURTH BEAST there is an "Image" and a "Mark of the Beast"... there is also an Anti-Christ.


During the FOURTH BEAST the Anti-Christ arises... he is shown as the "Little Horn" the "False Prophet" and the "Man of Sin"...
there is NO ANTI-CHRIST during the THIRD BEAST.


Again we see... you cannot understand the MEANING of a passage unless/until you can discern the CONTEXT of the passage...
is it showing the THIRD BEAST or the FOURTH BEAST.


I hope this helps you to discern the CONTEXT of Rev 20.


Meanwhile... the CONTEXT of Rev 13 is ONLY the FOURTH BEAST


Rev 20 shows TWO BEASTS (one while Satan is bound - and one after Satan is loosened)
Rev 13 shows ONE BEAST (after Satan is loosened)


It is really as simple as that.


Jim
.
 
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Zao is life

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Of course the PROBLEM with your position is that it does not understand the CONTEXT of Rev 20 and Rev 13.


Rev. 20 shows TWO (2) different Beasts.
If you cannot understand the CONTEXT you cannot understand the MEANING
You cannot possibly understand Rev 20 when you think it only shows ONE BEAST.


The first Beast shown in Rev 20 is the THIRD BEAST on earth.

The Beast that exists
WHILE Satan is bound in the Bottomless Pit.
The Beast that exists WHILE the Great Commission goes out and
the Saints "lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years"...
this represent the AMillennial Kingdom known as the Church Age.
This represents the THIRD BEAST on earth, known as the Church Age


Rev 20:3-4
And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations
no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones,
and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness
of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark
upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


The second Beast of Rev 20 is the FOURTH BEAST on earth.

The Beast that exists AFTER Satan is released from the Bottomless Pit
The Beast that is shown as (1) Daniel's Fourth Beast and (2) the Revelation Beast and
(3) the Great Tribulation Kingdom and (4) the RULE of Satan and his Anti-Christ
(shown as the Little Horn, and False Prophet and Man of Sin) during
(5) Satan's "Little Season" AFTER being released from the Pit.


Rev 20:7-8
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog,
to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


So... in Rev 20 we see the THIRD BEAST [verses 1-4] and we see the FOURTH BEAST [verses 7-8]...
you are conflating the two Beasts into ONE BEAST. That is where you err.


Your error is compounded because you cannot DEFINE the terms "Beast" and "Image" and "Mark"...
you cannot offer an "informed opinion" on words you cannot DEFINE


During the THIRD BEAST there is an "Image" and a "Mark of the Beast"
During the FOURTH BEAST there is an "Image" and a "Mark of the Beast"... there is also an Anti-Christ.


During the FOURTH BEAST the Anti-Christ arises... he is shown as the "Little Horn" the "False Prophet" and the "Man of Sin"...
there is NO ANTI-CHRIST during the THIRD BEAST.


Again we see... you cannot understand the MEANING of a passage unless/until you can discern the CONTEXT of the passage...
is it showing the THIRD BEAST or the FOURTH BEAST.


I hope this helps you to discern the CONTEXT of Rev 20.


Meanwhile... the CONTEXT of Rev 13 is ONLY the FOURTH BEAST


Rev 20 shows TWO BEASTS (one while Satan is bound - and one after Satan is loosened)
Rev 13 shows ONE BEAST (after Satan is loosened)


It is really as simple as that.


Jim
.
Well you see what you see, but all I can see in the above is more than a little eisegesis, and it naturally ignores the purpose given in Revelation 20 for casting Satan into the pit.

Ephesians 2:2 tells us about Satan's influence over the societies of this world, this age. Satan is called the god of this age in 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 where Paul states that "even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing, among whom the god of this age has blinded the minds of those who do not believe so they would not see the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God."

Jesus called Satan "the ruler of this world" and the New Testament calls him "the prince of the power of the air who works in the sons of disobedience", who we are told will give the beast and false prophet his seat, power and great authority (Revelation Chapter 13). The saints are warned to be weary of his wiles and to resist him, and to put on the full armor of God because "we do not wrestle against flesh and blood" ( John 12:31; 1 Peter 5:8-9; Ephesians 6:11-12; Revelation 2:9-10 & Revelation 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 2:18; James 4:7 ).

In Genesis chapter 3, we read of how Satan appeared in the Garden of Eden and deceived mankind. Revelation 12:9 calls Satan "the great dragon" and "the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world."

The only reason given for Satan being bound in Revelation 20:1-3 is that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years have expired. This has not been the case during this age, both in the history of the world since the time of the ascension, and according to the teaching contained in the letters of the apostles of Christ (which I've mentioned above). Your thesis expressed in your above post completely fails to take this fact into account and places Satan in the pit before he's placed in the pit and rendered unable to deceive the nations.

There is also nothing in the entire Bible that points us to two different beasts being spoken of in Revelation 13:1-10; Revelation 19:19-21 and Revelation 20:4. The only way you have managed to do so is by adjusting your thesis to fit in with an Amillennialist understanding of Revelation 20. I've been attempting to follow what you believe regarding the identities of Daniel's four beasts but you lose me completely when you add Amillennialist statements to what you re saying so that your four beasts comply with Amillennialism.
 
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