The Last Reformation

[woobadooba]

How am I out of context? I'm quoting a direct statement of Jesus'. You're supporting your claims with something that Paul observed Christ to have done. Christ gave some of His disciples certain powers. That's correct. Christ didn't walk around the world and give everyone powers like Santa Claus delivering gifts. But he did tell them in Matthew 28:29 to go out there and make disciples of their own. How does that invalidate the assumption that the disciples could hand over those powers to those new disciples that they made? And how does the fact that Christ gave some of the disciples certain powers invalidate Christ's promise that:

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto the Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask anything in my name, that will I do.
?

"till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;" - Ephesians 4:13 (NKJV)

Has this happened yet? No.
What does the word "till" mean in this context?

The word "till" suggests that while some were given certain gifts (Eph. 4:11), it will continue to be so until there is no use for them (see Rev. 22:11). Therefore, until that time, some will be evangelists and some will be appointed to other offices in the church. But not all will function in the same way. There are different parts of the body.

"If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling?" - 1 Corinthians 12:17 (NKJV)

It is not up to you, nor the organization you belong to, to tell me or any other member of the body of Christ what our gifts should be.

"But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills." - 1 Corinthians 12:11 (NKJV)

"But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased." - 1 Corinthians 12:18 (NKJV)

To say that Christ was saying all would be evangelists is to read meaning into the text that isn't there. You need to read 1 Corinthians 12. Hopefully, it will help you to see things more clearly.

 

[woobadooba]

There is some serious eisegesis going on in this thread!

 

[aiki]

I showed you wrong, its ok. No worries. God does indeed speak to people on a personal and intimate level, one which I pray you experience very soon yourself. And you will, whether you like it or not.

No, I don't think I will. I have walked with God for over forty years and not once have I had God speak to me directly as a voice in my mind. And no where in Scripture is this taught or urged upon me. Now, this doesn't mean He isn't able to communicate this way with me; He can. But in the record of Scripture when God spoke directly to people there was a blinding light, or talking donkey, or thunderings and lightning, or an audible voice speaking in the air, or a burning bush. These days, the believer has all that they need to know from God in the text of the Bible. If they will live in accordance with what they read in it, they will never have to rely on a voice in their head for guidance.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Psalms 119:105
105 Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path.

 

[mark kennedy]

Literally 90% of the videos on that channel are about a guy named Doug and his wife and friends filming themselves healing people from pain on the streets. Sure, he preaches (talks in front of a camera for a few minutes) before showing the street miracles that he performs in most of his videos, but I don't understand how you missed all the videos containing the healings. You probably just watched the first few seconds and just saw him talking.

I've watched a couple of them and I'm not seeing anything miraculous. A couple of testimonies which is fine, but not really seeing much. Could you recommend one?

 

[GingerBeer]

What is your opinion about this? Are all these 'healings' staged (hired actors) or are they made with the power of the enemy?

If you see an alleged healing on youtube or on TV it is likely to be staged.

 

[woobadooba]

If you see an alleged healing on youtube or on TV it is likely to be staged.

I don't believe the movement the OP is referring to is of God.

 

[GingerBeer]

I don't believe the movement the OP is referring to is of God.

It is very difficult to believe that any televangelism is "of God".

 

[Waggles]

What is your opinion about this? Are all these 'healings' staged (hired actors) or are they made with the power of the enemy?

About Torben Søndergaard - The Last Reformation

My Pentecostal Church - The Revival Fellowship - is world famous for practising all the nine
gifts of the Holy Spirit available to the Spirit-filled Church, and we also have thousands upon
thousands of testimonies to healings and miracles.
The scriptures reveal to us that the Spirit-filled Church has the Bible evidence that all must speak in
a new tongue - that is the spiritual language given by the Holy Spirit for our daily personal prayers
to God - praying in the Holy Spirit.
Speaking in tongues to God is the only Bible evidence written of in the gospels, Acts and the Epistles
as the genuine sign of receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit.

My understanding of Torben Søndergaard and the The Last Reformation Church is that they do speak
in tongues; but as to how disciplined they are to obeying the scriptures and operating all nine gifts as
opposed to just promoting some of the gifts I am not really sure of. I need to investigate further.
They are down here in Australia and without doubt they are healing and doing miracles in the name of Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit.

https://thelastreformation.com/pioneer_school_mp3/11 Lesson. Baptism with the Holy Spirit - The promise in the New Covenant.mp3

 

[ByTheSpirit]

As a former trainee of the group I can tell you as I have already they do believe in "discipleship" but tonthem, and in fact from Torben himself. Discipleship is teaching others how to pray for the sick and baptize. That's it. Once he and his leaders have done that they may never see another's official TLR person again. Many rogue groups have formed within TLR that have slipped into NAR practices but the TLR group itself has maintained its distance.

I personally have met such a group. Which is why I left the group as a whole. No discipleship at all and a couple questionable practices to boot

 

[Ron Gurley]

OP:...Q1:..."your opinion is about this new Christian movement called "The Last Reformation", which preaches that: all humans can perform miracles with the help of (God) The Holy Spirit if they follow a set of rules that they teach in their videos..."

A1:
3 possiblities:
1. From God
2. From evil spirit beings, devil deceiving
3. From Man "faking it"

I rule out #1 "From God" because the spiritual SIGN GIFTS of the "apostolic age" used by God to authenticate His commissioned "messsengers" as "Men of God CEASED after ~100 years and after the Bible was "produced"!!

One of those SIGN GIFTS was:
>>"gift of healings" at the sole will of the healer.<<

1 Corinthians 12:28,30
And God has appointed in the church,
first apostles,
second prophets,
third teachers,
then miracles,
>>then GIFTS of HEALINGS,<<
(then) "helps",
(then) "administrations",
(then) various kinds of "tongues".(glossa)...
All do not have GIFTS of HEALINGS, do they?..(NO!).

Here is how God honors the prayers for "healing" TODAY!

James 5: 13-16(NASB)...HEALING
13 Is anyone among you suffering? Then he must pray.
Is anyone cheerful? He is to sing praises.
14 Is anyone among you sick?
Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him,anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;
15 and the prayer offered in faith will"restore" (HEAL!) the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up,
and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be HEALED.
The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

 

[Ron Gurley]

RESPONSE TO POST #88: Q1:..."
"Speaking in tongues to God" is the only Bible evidence written of in the gospels, Acts and the Epistles
as the genuine "sign" of receiving the indwelling (of God)Holy Spirit...

A1: WAY off point + false doctrine!

SEE:

Speak in Tongues - essential :

Paul told us that "tongues" (glossa) would cease in
1 Cor.13:8

1 Cor. 12 (ALL NASB)
30 All do not have the (SIGN) gifts of healings, do they?
All do not speak with (the SIGN gift of) "tongues" (glossa), do they?
All do not "interpret"(the SIGN gift "tongues" (glossa)", do they?

1 Cor. 12:8-10 ...enumeration of all of the SIGN GIFTS!

1 Corinthians 14:22-23
So then "tongues" (GLOSSA) are for a SIGN,
not to those who believe but to UNBELIEVERS;
but "prophecy" is for a SIGN, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in "tongues" (GLOSSA),
and ungifted men or unbelievers enter,
will they not say that you are mad?

Romans 12:4-6 "For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function,
so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.
We have DIFFERENT GIFTS according to the grace given to each of us. "

 

[Ron Gurley]

OP: "Speaking in "tongues"?

A1:
1 Corinthians 14:22 (NASB)
So then "tongues" are for a "sign", NOT to those who believe (saved) but to unbelievers; but "prophecy" is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.Therefore if the whole "church assembles" together and all speak in "tongues", and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?

tongues...Greek 1100...glōssa...
1.the tongue, a member of the body, an organ of speech
2.a tongue
1.the language or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations

but prophecy...Greek 4394...prophēteia...
1.a discourse emanating from divine inspiration and declaring the purposes of God,
whether by reproving and admonishing the wicked, or comforting the afflicted, or revealing things hidden;
esp. by foretelling future events
2.Used in the NT of the utterance of OT prophets
1.of the prediction of events relating to Christ's kingdom and its speedy triumph,
together with the consolations and admonitions pertaining to it,
the spirit of prophecy, the divine mind, to which the prophetic faculty is due
2.of the endowment and speech of the Christian teachers called prophets
3.the gifts and utterances of these prophets,
esp. of the predictions of the works of which, set apart to teach the gospel, will accomplish for the kingdom of Christ

The miraculous "sign" gifts used by God to authenticate ~12-men as spirit-led MESSENGERS of the Gospel and TRUTH
(aka apostles) CEASED when the last of the original MSS of the Bible were "produced"...~100 AD.

Have the charismatic gifts ceased? | carm

When Did the Gift of Tongues Cease?

Two Views on the "Sign Gifts": Continuity Vs. Discontinuity

 

[Ron Gurley]

I make a motion that there be no more references/discussions to the off point false doctrine of "tongues" (glossa)

 

[Blade]

Well I was going to say more but this took a turn in which I can not be part of. Some are talking about others that are not here can not defend them selfs and its some words are not words of life.

Some day...YOU will have to make a choice. You believe.. or you don't. Not based on what ANY one says. No one on this planet has the right to say what GOD REALLY SAID. Yet we do it day in day out.. what Jesus really mean.. what that verse is really saying.. on and on. It happens here all the time.

So many focus one some person.. not Christ. How can we not see this.. Seek what 1st? HIS kingdom.. HIS righteousness.. then all these things will be added unto you. Put JESUS 1st in EVERYTHING...

I dont know how to give it away.. or .. JESUS IS REAL! Like Chan said one day.. your on some Island..alone. you see a book.. BIBLE.. you never heard of it before.. now be like a CHILD.. that believes ANYTHING and EVERYTHING.. now read it. If He says something about ASK.. BELIEVE.. DO IT! WHY would you run to some MAN to tell you what GOD really said? Is HE REAL or not? Do you REALLY BELIEVE IN JESUS?

He is FOR YOU...NEVER against you.. He told you SO many times about ASK..side note: There are what ..about 226 "WHO SO EVER" in the bible.. one was about? These SIGNS shall FOLLOW them that believe... BELIEVE! And they may not be doing it like YOU like or how YOU would.. but GOD? He says "if THEY are for ME? Then are not against me"...

Jesus is real.. believe Him.. not a word I say.. make sure the word says it.. and if you get stuck.. then ASK HIM..

 

[Waggles]

They tried to cast demons, not by their own power, but by invoking the name of The Lord Jesus, showing dependency on God, but failed to do so and were harmed by the possessed man. Did they claim to have the powers themselves? No. They clearly mentioned Jesus' authority, but still failed for some reason.

11 And God did works of power through the hands of Paul,
12 so that even handkerchiefs or aprons from his skin being brought onto the sick, the diseases were released, and the evil spirits went out of them.
13 And certain from the strolling Jews, exorcists, undertook to name the name of the Lord Jesus over those having evil spirits, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preaches.
14 And there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, who did so.
15 But answering the evil spirit said, Jesus I know, and I comprehend Paul, but who are you?
16 And the man in whom the evil spirit resided leaped on them, and overcoming them he was strong against them, so that they fled out of the house naked and wounded.
17 And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks who lived at Ephesus, and fear fell on all of them,
and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified.
Acts 19:11-17

The seven sons of Sceva were not Spirit-filled Christians. They did not have the power of the
Holy Spirit residing within them. They tried to emulate Paul.
But one can only battle spiritual opposition through the spiritual power of God.
Hence all Christians need to be filled with the Holy Spirit.
The book of Acts is all about this.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

If you see an alleged healing on youtube or on TV it is likely to be staged.

The problem is I don't see one. I see thousands of different ones. So they must be pretty wealthy to hire so many different actors. No, they don't put make-up on them. They're actually different people. Their height, body weight and ethnicity differ too.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Speak in Tongues - essential :

Unless tongues/"glossa" are in a REAL language understood by someone of a DIFFERENT language, it is of no value, spiritual or otherwise. To someone hearing it is gibberish. It is easliy counterfeited by man and demon.

"Praying in the spirit" is NOT "tongues"! (ALL NASB)

Acts 4:31
And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all "filled with" (God) the Holy Spirit and began to speak the "word of God "with boldness.

Romans 8:26[ Our Victory in Christ ] In the same way (God) the (Holy) Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;

1 Corinthians 14:15
What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.

Jude 1:20
But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying IN (God) the Holy Spirit,

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I rule out #1 "From God" because the spiritual SIGN GIFTS of the "apostolic age" used by God to authenticate His commissioned "messsengers" as "Men of God CEASED after ~100 years and after the Bible was "produced"!!

WRONG!

1 Corinthians 1:7 says we will lack no gift until Jesus Christ is revealed.

This is just one trstimony from me. I know you don't know me but you dare say it was false or fake.

One other time a gentleman was in our church and had received a serious accident at work. Slipped a disk in his back and damaged some vertabrae and was left in a limp walking very gingerly and with assistance from then on. Well he came to church and during alter call came forward for prayer. Several church elders asked me to pray for the gentleman and I laid my hands on his back and said in the name of Jesus I command this back to be healed and realigned. The gentleman left walking in the same manner and we continued to pray for him. The next week he came back and RAN up to the front of the church and jumped up and down and said I've been healed my back is pain free and I'm walking without a cane now! Several people in his family from what I know came to the Lord as a result of his healing. Praise God!

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Speak in Tongues - essential :

Unless tongues/"glossa" are in a REAL language understood by someone of a DIFFERENT language, it is of no value, spiritual or otherwise. To someone hearing it is gibberish. It is easliy counterfeited by man and demon.

"Praying in the spirit" is NOT "tongues"! (ALL NASB)

Acts 4:31
And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all "filled with" (God) the Holy Spirit and began to speak the "word of God "with boldness.

Romans 8:26[ Our Victory in Christ ] In the same way (God) the (Holy) Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;

1 Corinthians 14:15
What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.

Jude 1:20
But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying IN (God) the Holy Spirit,

Wrong again

“so that you are not lacking in any gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ,”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭1:7‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Not lacking any gift while we wait for Jesus Christ to be revealed...

“If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13:1‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Do you know what an angelic language sounds like? Didn't think so

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I make a motion that there be no more references/discussions to the off point false doctrine of "tongues" (glossa)

Show me in scripture where it says tongues have ceased please, or for that matter any gift